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State vs. Government

ConservativePolitico
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5/15/2012 5:34:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have seen many anarchists on this site proclaim repeatedly that anarchy is anti-state not anti-government.

Can you please explain to me the finer implications of such a statement.

Also, if you're not anti-government what sort of "government" does an anarchist support.

This is how I see all forms of anarchy:

Anarchy
|
V

Small bands (families)
|
V

Larger bands (clans/gangs)
|
V

Bands form a hierarchy
|
V

Hierarchy attracts more members
|
V

Band expands - hierarchy expands - repeat
|
V

Viola you now have a small state

I believe that this would happen every time in an anarchy.
OMGJustinBieber
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5/15/2012 5:42:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'd say hierarchy is inherent to human relations regardless of political system.

I guess I see it like: anarchy -> long period of robberies, rapes, beatings, murders -> gang rule.
GeoLaureate8
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5/15/2012 5:48:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
First of all there's different definitions of both, but with regard to the notion of State vs. Government, here's the breakdown:

The State is brute force, tyranny, a monopoly on force.
Government is order, infrastructure provider, equalizing force in society controlled in part by the people/citizens (dubious terms I know).

Of course, I would never put Aristotle's state and fit it with the above definition. Aristotle used the word state in a different manner than the traditional understanding of the word.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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OberHerr
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5/15/2012 5:52:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Any form of leadership is a government.
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DanT
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5/15/2012 6:06:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 5:48:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
First of all there's different definitions of both, but with regard to the notion of State vs. Government, here's the breakdown:

The State is brute force, tyranny, a monopoly on force.
Government is order, infrastructure provider, equalizing force in society controlled in part by the people/citizens (dubious terms I know).

Of course, I would never put Aristotle's state and fit it with the above definition. Aristotle used the word state in a different manner than the traditional understanding of the word.

according to the oxford dictionary, a state is "a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government", or "the civil government of a country"
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
ConservativePolitico
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5/15/2012 8:03:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 5:42:32 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'd say hierarchy is inherent to human relations regardless of political system.

I guess I see it like: anarchy -> long period of robberies, rapes, beatings, murders -> gang rule.

Exactly how I see it.

Anarchy is foolish.
ConservativePolitico
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5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?
UnStupendousMan
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5/15/2012 8:31:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
First: I would have thought that this thread would have gotten more attention from Danielle, Thad, Cosmic, et al.

Oh wait, they're in the super-secret anarchist PM discussing the ways to bring the OP down and somehow derail the tread onto a vaugue facet of anarchism which nobody cares about but the anarchists. </trolling>

But, in all seriousness, I hate anarchism. It gets on my nerves. As oftentimes stated by the (venerable) Danielle, anarchims is based on "governments are not abolished, but the state is." I have still yet to hear a viable system in which a society exists with government, but without the state.

I think that anarchists are trapped in the belief that governments are going to compete like people to let them stay under the government, because if they do not, then the governments are going to loose citizens. However, there is the option of creating a state and not let the citizens run away.

And just HOW can a government exist without a state? The government is going to have to use SOMETHING in order to enforce it's laws. Can it not just be a state? Also, I'm perfectly fine being in a statist society. I have fairly good freedoms (except maybe Patriot-Act-like laws) and that's fine by me.
FREEDO
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5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
thett3
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5/15/2012 8:42:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't buy into the argument that under anarchy the world would be vicious and cruel, considering that States have murdered literally hundreds of times more people than private individuals ever have. The big government 20th century was the most murderous in human history. But I also don't really buy the argument that private insurance corporations can properly account for justice, so that leaves me at an impasses when it comes to anarchy
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ConservativePolitico
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5/15/2012 8:47:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.

Impossible.

Look at Somalia. Instead of rules emerging from the chaos you have a state living in fear running a modern day Pirates of the Gulf of Aiden flick.
thett3
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5/15/2012 9:06:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 8:47:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.

Impossible.

Look at Somalia. Instead of rules emerging from the chaos you have a state living in fear running a modern day Pirates of the Gulf of Aiden flick.

http://mises.org...
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/15/2012 9:14:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 5:42:32 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'd say hierarchy is inherent to human relations regardless of political system.

I guess I see it like: anarchy -> long period of robberies, rapes, beatings, murders -> gang rule.

As opposed to statism where we never see any of that? Good point brah.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
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5/15/2012 9:16:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

And with a monopoly on force and law, who enforces tue rules ON the rulers? Surely you dot expect people to turn into saints when they take office correct?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
FREEDO
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5/15/2012 9:18:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 8:47:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.

Impossible.

Look at Somalia. Instead of rules emerging from the chaos you have a state living in fear running a modern day Pirates of the Gulf of Aiden flick.

Well, you'd have to examine to concept of what a state is. Generally, the economic definition of a state is the monopoly on force. In Somalia, pirates hold a monopoly on force. So you could say the are the state.
It's also a fact that the condition in Somalia has dramatically improved since the collapse of it's more organized state.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Mirza
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5/15/2012 9:19:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:18:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
It's also a fact that the condition in Somalia has dramatically improved since the collapse of it's more organized state.
I sincerely hope nobody actually takes this argument against statism for real.
FREEDO
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5/15/2012 9:23:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:19:18 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/15/2012 9:18:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
It's also a fact that the condition in Somalia has dramatically improved since the collapse of it's more organized state.
I sincerely hope nobody actually takes this argument against statism for real.

Why not? The link that thett posted has some statistics on the improved condition.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
thett3
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5/15/2012 9:23:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:19:18 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/15/2012 9:18:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
It's also a fact that the condition in Somalia has dramatically improved since the collapse of it's more organized state.
I sincerely hope nobody actually takes this argument against statism for real.

Why not? You don't view case studies as valid?
DDO Vice President

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#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/15/2012 9:23:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 8:47:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.

Impossible.

Look at Somalia. Instead of rules emerging from the chaos you have a state living in fear running a modern day Pirates of the Gulf of Aiden flick.

Because people never live in fear of their governments correct? How many have been killed in Somalia's "anarchy"? As high as 12 million under Hitler's STATIST regime? Upwards of 20 million under Stalin's STATIST regime? How about upwards of 100 million under Mao's STATIST regime? You really showed us foolish anarchists brah. Without compassionate government people would be murdering like crazy. Tell me how many people private criminals have killed in history? Anywhere near just the amount of Statist murders in the twentieth century alone?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/15/2012 9:25:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:23:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Why not? The link that thett posted has some statistics on the improved condition.

Why not? You don't view case studies as valid?
The only thing that fact proves is that anarchy isn't necessarily worse than a state, which is true. But this doesn't prove that anarchy->state whatsoever. It would be nonsensical to argue that.
thett3
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5/15/2012 9:26:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:23:40 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:47:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.

Impossible.

Look at Somalia. Instead of rules emerging from the chaos you have a state living in fear running a modern day Pirates of the Gulf of Aiden flick.

Because people never live in fear of their governments correct? How many have been killed in Somalia's "anarchy"? As high as 12 million under Hitler's STATIST regime? Upwards of 20 million under Stalin's STATIST regime? How about upwards of 100 million under Mao's STATIST regime? You really showed us foolish anarchists brah. Without compassionate government people would be murdering like crazy. Tell me how many people private criminals have killed in history? Anywhere near just the amount of Statist murders in the twentieth century alone?

Don't forget about the hundreds of millions killed by statist warfare.
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Mirza
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5/15/2012 9:27:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No, let's actually use that logic. Some former Yugoslav states were more prosperous during communism than now with democracy and capitalism. Therefore, communism is better.

It's just rubbish.
UnStupendousMan
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5/15/2012 9:28:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:23:40 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:47:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.

Impossible.

Look at Somalia. Instead of rules emerging from the chaos you have a state living in fear running a modern day Pirates of the Gulf of Aiden flick.

Because people never live in fear of their governments correct? How many have been killed in Somalia's "anarchy"? As high as 12 million under Hitler's STATIST regime? Upwards of 20 million under Stalin's STATIST regime? How about upwards of 100 million under Mao's STATIST regime? You really showed us foolish anarchists brah. Without compassionate government people would be murdering like crazy. Tell me how many people private criminals have killed in history? Anywhere near just the amount of Statist murders in the twentieth century alone?

Extreme examples are extreme examples, Spinko. Besides, there have been a lot of great advancements such as refrigeration, air conditioning, the computer that have been instilled under STATIST regimes.
thett3
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5/15/2012 9:30:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:27:12 PM, Mirza wrote:
No, let's actually use that logic. Some former Yugoslav states were more prosperous during communism than now with democracy and capitalism. Therefore, communism is better.

It's just rubbish.

Except for no one was offering it as a singular argument for anarchy, it's more evidence to the conclusion. Moreover, I only posted it to block CPs implied argument that statism is always better than anarchy.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Mirza
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5/15/2012 9:31:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:23:40 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Because people never live in fear of their governments correct? How many have been killed in Somalia's "anarchy"? As high as 12 million under Hitler's STATIST regime? Upwards of 20 million under Stalin's STATIST regime? How about upwards of 100 million under Mao's STATIST regime?
Are you arguing that without the existence of states, groups wouldn't be able to form and end up in a clash against one another?
thett3
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5/15/2012 9:31:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:28:47 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 5/15/2012 9:23:40 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:47:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.

Impossible.

Look at Somalia. Instead of rules emerging from the chaos you have a state living in fear running a modern day Pirates of the Gulf of Aiden flick.

Because people never live in fear of their governments correct? How many have been killed in Somalia's "anarchy"? As high as 12 million under Hitler's STATIST regime? Upwards of 20 million under Stalin's STATIST regime? How about upwards of 100 million under Mao's STATIST regime? You really showed us foolish anarchists brah. Without compassionate government people would be murdering like crazy. Tell me how many people private criminals have killed in history? Anywhere near just the amount of Statist murders in the twentieth century alone?

Extreme examples are extreme examples, Spinko. Besides, there have been a lot of great advancements such as refrigeration, air conditioning, the computer that have been instilled under STATIST regimes.

Some good things have happened under statism, therefore statism is good. Nice arg dawggggggggggg
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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5/15/2012 9:32:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Doesn't somebody need to enforce anarchy? I mean really, in anarchy whats stopping people from just forming governments?

Though if you really want to look at it, there is already anarchy everywhere. We've just been drilled until we consider the state to be a real entity.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
OMGJustinBieber
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5/15/2012 9:33:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:14:07 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/15/2012 5:42:32 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'd say hierarchy is inherent to human relations regardless of political system.

I guess I see it like: anarchy -> long period of robberies, rapes, beatings, murders -> gang rule.

As opposed to statism where we never see any of that? Good point brah.

I take it you haven't seen many police strikes. It's nice being a teenager.
UnStupendousMan
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5/15/2012 9:33:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 9:31:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/15/2012 9:28:47 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 5/15/2012 9:23:40 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:47:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:34:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:23:14 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/15/2012 8:18:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A better way to put it is that Anarchy is against rulers but not rules.

But without a ruler, who enforces the rules?

The rules are mutually agreed upon or arise out of chaotic order principles.

Impossible.

Look at Somalia. Instead of rules emerging from the chaos you have a state living in fear running a modern day Pirates of the Gulf of Aiden flick.

Because people never live in fear of their governments correct? How many have been killed in Somalia's "anarchy"? As high as 12 million under Hitler's STATIST regime? Upwards of 20 million under Stalin's STATIST regime? How about upwards of 100 million under Mao's STATIST regime? You really showed us foolish anarchists brah. Without compassionate government people would be murdering like crazy. Tell me how many people private criminals have killed in history? Anywhere near just the amount of Statist murders in the twentieth century alone?

Extreme examples are extreme examples, Spinko. Besides, there have been a lot of great advancements such as refrigeration, air conditioning, the computer that have been instilled under STATIST regimes.

Some good things have happened under statism, therefore statism is good. Nice arg dawggggggggggg

Spinko basically said that "Bad things have happened under statism, therefore statism is bad." I guess both of our logic was wrong.