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Any Good Reason to Oppose School Choice?

Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/18/2012 7:57:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't think there is. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Unless, you are literally only concerned for the benefit of the teachers unions and public employees, I just don't see the case.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/18/2012 8:45:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Test scores among private and public schools do not vary much. The best performance is from KIPP Charter Schools.

First, giving government money to private schools, many of which are religious, would violate the Separation of Church and State. In Ohio, the state Supreme Court ruled against vouchers based on this reason.

The only real reason private schools do better than public ones is because of Cream Skinning. This basically means that the private schools pick and choose who to have as their students, thus students from troubled, poorer backgrounds, disabled children, and those of different religious/ economic factions are highly likely to be rejected.

To improve education, I think the US needs to improve public education like they did in Finland. They have only 1 standardized test, all teachers must have a Masters degree (which studies prove significantly helps), reduce class sizes, healthier foods, more accountability to the individual schools and using more modern teaching methods (for example, You Tube videos have been found to be helpful to students in ways the teachers are not).
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/18/2012 9:02:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 8:45:55 PM, Contra wrote:
Test scores among private and public schools do not vary much. The best performance is from KIPP Charter Schools.

Do not know if this is true. But, even if it is, that does not change my support for school choice.

If this is true, school choice would allow parents to choose KIPP Charter Schools.

This really isn't an argument against school choice.


First, giving government money to private schools, many of which are religious, would violate the Separation of Church and State. In Ohio, the state Supreme Court ruled against vouchers based on this reason.

How is this a violation of the Establishment Clause, which reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion"?

This argument could be taken to an extreme to say that any Religious type school should not be count as education at all, and we should require everyone to go to secular schools.

Nobody is forced to use their voucher for any type of Religous school, but they can.


The only real reason private schools do better than public ones is because of Cream Skinning. This basically means that the private schools pick and choose who to have as their students, thus students from troubled, poorer backgrounds, disabled children, and those of different religious/ economic factions are highly likely to be rejected.

Again, I don't know if this is true or not. However, I attend private school, and the teachers are dramatically better than public schools despite getting paid less.

Yes, I realize that this is anecdotal evidence, but I think anyone would have a tough time denying this.

Regardless, if private schools really don't perform better, nobody is forcing anyone to attend.


To improve education, I think the US needs to improve public education like they did in Finland. They have only 1 standardized test, all teachers must have a Masters degree (which studies prove significantly helps), reduce class sizes, healthier foods, more accountability to the individual schools and using more modern teaching methods (for example, You Tube videos have been found to be helpful to students in ways the teachers are not).

Or, we could do what they did in Sweden, school choice.

And, we need to reform tenure, have merit pay, impose more standards to insure that kids are learning, and reduce the power of the teachers unions.

Pooring more money into bloated government programs won't fix education, real market based reforms that take on the bureacracy will.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/18/2012 9:19:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 9:02:13 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 8:45:55 PM, Contra wrote:
Test scores among private and public schools do not vary much. The best performance is from KIPP Charter Schools.


Do not know if this is true. But, even if it is, that does not change my support for school choice.

http://www.nytimes.com...

^ It is true.

If this is true, school choice would allow parents to choose KIPP Charter Schools.

This really isn't an argument against school choice.





First, giving government money to private schools, many of which are religious, would violate the Separation of Church and State. In Ohio, the state Supreme Court ruled against vouchers based on this reason.





How is this a violation of the Establishment Clause, which reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion"?

Because for example an atheist may be forced to fund a Catholic school, etc. Not really my main point here.

This argument could be taken to an extreme to say that any Religious type school should not be count as education at all, and we should require everyone to go to secular schools.

Nobody is forced to use their voucher for any type of Religous school, but they can.




The only real reason private schools do better than public ones is because of Cream Skinning. This basically means that the private schools pick and choose who to have as their students, thus students from troubled, poorer backgrounds, disabled children, and those of different religious/ economic factions are highly likely to be rejected.




Again, I don't know if this is true or not. However, I attend private school, and the teachers are dramatically better than public schools despite getting paid less.

Once again, the source above proves my point. Private schools may appear better, but on average this is because they don't include children of other, less stable backgrounds.

Yes, I realize that this is anecdotal evidence, but I think anyone would have a tough time denying this.

Regardless, if private schools really don't perform better, nobody is forcing anyone to attend.





To improve education, I think the US needs to improve public education like they did in Finland. They have only 1 standardized test, all teachers must have a Masters degree (which studies prove significantly helps), reduce class sizes, healthier foods, more accountability to the individual schools and using more modern teaching methods (for example, You Tube videos have been found to be helpful to students in ways the teachers are not).

Or, we could do what they did in Sweden, school choice.

And, we need to reform tenure,

Agreed.

have merit pay,

NO. Merit pay has no real benefits. Why base a teacher's pay off the student's family's income? Teacher evaluations are ok.

impose more standards to insure that kids are learning, and reduce the power of the teachers unions.

I don't care for teacher's unions either, when they prevent a good education process.

The Center of Budget Priorities said that to improve K12 education, there were four main points to create a new federal education policy:

1) Education funds should be distributed based on student need and focused on closing educational achievement disparities.

2) State and local officials and educators should have flexibility in determining how best to spend federal education funds.

3) In return for flexibility, fund recepients and educators should be held accountable for boosting student achievement and meeting other educational priorities.

4) A highley effective education workforce is essential to boost student achievement.

I can expand.

Pooring more money into bloated government programs won't fix education, real market based reforms that take on the bureacracy will.

I don't really care for the Dept. of Education, but my suggestion is backed by key findings.

Stripping funding from the neediest and most deprived schools, desperate to achieve success for their community and to revitalize their communities, by imposing vouchers which leave many children, is against the American idea of an education system that is vibrant, well funded, has high standards, and is nurturant in nature.

Progressive values will improve education.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/18/2012 10:15:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 8:45:55 PM, Contra wrote:
Test scores among private and public schools do not vary much. The best performance is from KIPP Charter Schools.

depends on the private school, where I live may private schools are poor but my school which is private just made it so every class is now AP or higher.


First, giving government money to private schools, many of which are religious, would violate the Separation of Church and State. In Ohio, the state Supreme Court ruled against vouchers based on this reason.

The only real reason private schools do better than public ones is because of Cream Skinning. This basically means that the private schools pick and choose who to have as their students, thus students from troubled, poorer backgrounds, disabled children, and those of different religious/ economic factions are highly likely to be rejected.

To improve education, I think the US needs to improve public education like they did in Finland. They have only 1 standardized test, all teachers must have a Masters degree (which studies prove significantly helps), reduce class sizes, healthier foods, more accountability to the individual schools and using more modern teaching methods (for example, You Tube videos have been found to be helpful to students in ways the teachers are not).
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing and government based ones are.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/18/2012 10:34:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing

American auto industry WAS (thanks Obama and to a smaller extent (Bush))

and government based ones are.

The Postal Service has a future retirees health benefit payment contract, which is accounting for most of their situation. All other businesses do not face this measure. They need to cut it.

Besides, what is the point of defending government when it is doing bad in many areas and needs to be reformed.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/18/2012 10:37:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 10:34:01 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing

American auto industry WAS (thanks Obama and to a smaller extent (Bush))

When a market based sector grows innefficient and inneffective, companies fail and are replaced by more efficient, newer competitors.

Obama and to a smaller extent (Bush) simply stopped this necessary process from taking place.

Calling this a success is silly.


and government based ones are.

The Postal Service has a future retirees health benefit payment contract, which is accounting for most of their situation. All other businesses do not face this measure. They need to cut it.

Besides, what is the point of defending government when it is doing bad in many areas and needs to be reformed.

You can't write off all of the failures of government by saying that reform is necessary and we should spend more.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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5/18/2012 11:22:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing
You've got to be kidding me...
and government based ones are.
Sapere Aude!
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/19/2012 12:17:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 11:22:24 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing
You've got to be kidding me...

No, just pointing out the reality.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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5/19/2012 7:08:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/19/2012 12:17:28 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 11:22:24 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing
You've got to be kidding me...


No, just pointing out the reality.

You mean that government funded projects are not making a profit? Because government funded industries aren't out to make a profit: for example, they may be aiming to educate as many people as possible instead. Government industries are social enterprises.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
cbrhawk1
Posts: 588
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5/19/2012 7:34:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 7:57:53 PM, Ameriman wrote:
I don't think there is. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Unless, you are literally only concerned for the benefit of the teachers unions and public employees, I just don't see the case.

There are a lot of things that governments need to step away from. The public school system is one of those disasters. It costs too much for what little it delivers. A voucher program would be no more expensive for states than schools already are.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/19/2012 8:34:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/19/2012 7:08:28 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/19/2012 12:17:28 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 11:22:24 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing
You've got to be kidding me...


No, just pointing out the reality.

You mean that government funded projects are not making a profit? Because government funded industries aren't out to make a profit: for example, they may be aiming to educate as many people as possible instead. Government industries are social enterprises.

No. This isn't about profit (not that there's anything wrong with profit).

This is about how it benefits the consumer. Market based sectors are much better for the consumer.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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5/19/2012 10:04:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/19/2012 8:34:24 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/19/2012 7:08:28 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/19/2012 12:17:28 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 11:22:24 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing
You've got to be kidding me...


No, just pointing out the reality.

You mean that government funded projects are not making a profit? Because government funded industries aren't out to make a profit: for example, they may be aiming to educate as many people as possible instead. Government industries are social enterprises.


No. This isn't about profit (not that there's anything wrong with profit).

This is about how it benefits the consumer. Market based sectors are much better for the consumer.

Oh, OK. Well, let's try to quantify that, by going which countries have the best education, and whether it is public or private.

Best educated citizen countries:

South Korea
Finland
Canada
New Zealand
Japan
Australia
Netherlands
Belgium
Norway
Estonia
Switzerland
etc.
etc.

All public schools.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/19/2012 12:53:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/19/2012 10:04:35 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/19/2012 8:34:24 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/19/2012 7:08:28 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/19/2012 12:17:28 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 11:22:24 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:30:18 PM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:25:18 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/18/2012 10:12:00 PM, Ameriman wrote:
Contra, do you believe the American education system is failing?

In many ways yes.

Interesting.

Odd how market based sectors usually aren't failing
You've got to be kidding me...


No, just pointing out the reality.

You mean that government funded projects are not making a profit? Because government funded industries aren't out to make a profit: for example, they may be aiming to educate as many people as possible instead. Government industries are social enterprises.


No. This isn't about profit (not that there's anything wrong with profit).

This is about how it benefits the consumer. Market based sectors are much better for the consumer.

Oh, OK. Well, let's try to quantify that, by going which countries have the best education, and whether it is public or private.

Best educated citizen countries:

South Korea
Finland
Canada
New Zealand
Japan
Australia
Netherlands
Belgium
Norway
Estonia
Switzerland
etc.
etc.

All public schools.

Um, all developed nation have universal public schooling.

So, thanks for proving nothing.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan