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Abandoning the U.S.

RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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5/22/2012 9:04:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It made the news this past week when one of the facebook founders renounced US citizenship in favor of Singapore, saving a large sum in taxes. Sen. Schumer went berserk at the thought of people being able to escape taxes.

Only about 2000 people per year are renouncing U.S. citizenship, although the numbers have doubled in recent years. More common is moving business out of the U.S. 60 Minutes did a piece on companies registering in business. companies that have assets in intellectual property (patents, software) can avoid capital gins by the simple process of owning it in Switzerland rather than the U.S.

Individuals can keep accounts overseas, beyond the reach of U.S. rules and regulations. the individuals don't have to leave.

The U.S. now has the highest corporate tax rates in the world, a conseuence of Japan cutting their rates. Canada is much less than the U.S., attracting U.S. companies to move.

The bottom line is that raising tax rates ultimately lowers tax revenues because it become cheaper to move. Every sign is that the U.S. is at that point.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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5/22/2012 9:32:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
...I think this is just hoping for opinions on the issue, so...

I don't understand what one can do to stop this, apart from closing the borders from people emigrating abroad. Escaping high tax rates is a legitimate reason to leave a country: just don't expect the low tax country to be any good.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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5/22/2012 11:05:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Stop with the BS that "Oh the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world."

That's a load of crap. We have the highest MARGINAL rates in the world. The actual paid rate averaged at 12% last year, the lowest its been in three decades (damn Obama's communist tax raises!).

But please, ignore the facts and use only those misleading ones that fit your propaganda.
Sapere Aude!
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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5/22/2012 11:14:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:05:17 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Stop with the BS that "Oh the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world."

That's a load of crap. We have the highest MARGINAL rates in the world. The actual paid rate averaged at 12% last year, the lowest its been in three decades (damn Obama's communist tax raises!).

But please, ignore the facts and use only those misleading ones that fit your propaganda.

Note: This post has been flagged for inaccuracy due to the reason: source needed.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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5/22/2012 12:13:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:14:57 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:05:17 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Stop with the BS that "Oh the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world."

That's a load of crap. We have the highest MARGINAL rates in the world. The actual paid rate averaged at 12% last year, the lowest its been in three decades (damn Obama's communist tax raises!).

But please, ignore the facts and use only those misleading ones that fit your propaganda.

Note: This post has been flagged for inaccuracy due to the reason: source needed.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com...

http://www.usatoday.com...

Basically just did a lmgtfy
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/22/2012 12:18:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Economics 101: Businesses are mobile; if one state is too rough on business a company can move to another state, and if the US is too rough on business a company can move to another country.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/22/2012 12:26:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've been considering the idea of renouncing citizenship. It's just extremely difficult, because, to even engage in an employment contract in this territory, one has to be connected to the system in some way. I would be perfectly happy with a permanent work visa, but, after some cursory study of immigration law now and after my last debate, it seems like the waiting period for that kind of thing, particularly for someone in the position in which I would find myself, is really, really long. The best I could hope for is pushing my student status (or waiting until I graduate or something).
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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5/22/2012 2:30:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:05:17 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Stop with the BS that "Oh the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world."

That's a load of crap. We have the highest MARGINAL rates in the world. The actual paid rate averaged at 12% last year, the lowest its been in three decades (damn Obama's communist tax raises!).

But please, ignore the facts and use only those misleading ones that fit your propaganda.:

Nice distinction, but ultimately futile. The fact of the matter is that Ireland, Canada, Singapore, Hong Kong, Switzerland, etc have been very kind to US corporations and they are raking in the proceeds.

US companies are leaving, and the net result is a huge loss in revenue for the US.

http://money.cnn.com...
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caveat
Posts: 2,137
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5/22/2012 2:37:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 9:32:18 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
I don't understand what one can do to stop this, apart from closing the borders from people emigrating abroad.

That might raise some other concerns :P
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/22/2012 2:39:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The "corporate tax rate" is a formality. Loopholes permit the corporations to reduce their taxes significantly. Last year, 32 corporations received tax dollars and paid nothing. That's complete nonsense.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/22/2012 3:13:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 2:39:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The "corporate tax rate" is a formality. Loopholes permit the corporations to reduce their taxes significantly. Last year, 32 corporations received tax dollars and paid nothing. That's complete nonsense.

That's the nonsense.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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5/22/2012 3:17:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 3:13:36 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/22/2012 2:39:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The "corporate tax rate" is a formality. Loopholes permit the corporations to reduce their taxes significantly. Last year, 32 corporations received tax dollars and paid nothing. That's complete nonsense.

That's the nonsense.

agreed.

besides other countries will ALWAYS have ridiculously lower prices then the US, the US should just stick with a reasonable rate and let the world sort out everything else
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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/22/2012 3:40:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 3:17:38 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/22/2012 3:13:36 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/22/2012 2:39:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The "corporate tax rate" is a formality. Loopholes permit the corporations to reduce their taxes significantly. Last year, 32 corporations received tax dollars and paid nothing. That's complete nonsense.

That's the nonsense.

agreed.

besides other countries will ALWAYS have ridiculously lower prices then the US, the US should just stick with a reasonable rate and let the world sort out everything else

The U.S. artificially raises the prices of it's products via tariffs, taxation, minimum wage etc. It's not like this is a phenomenon that we can't do anything about (even if you're a fan of those regulations don't deny that they contribute to higher prices). A good case can be made for why these regulations should be repealed, though I admire your Smithian attitude towards free trade. Kudos comrade.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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5/22/2012 3:58:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 3:40:59 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/22/2012 3:17:38 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/22/2012 3:13:36 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/22/2012 2:39:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The "corporate tax rate" is a formality. Loopholes permit the corporations to reduce their taxes significantly. Last year, 32 corporations received tax dollars and paid nothing. That's complete nonsense.

That's the nonsense.

agreed.

besides other countries will ALWAYS have ridiculously lower prices then the US, the US should just stick with a reasonable rate and let the world sort out everything else

The U.S. artificially raises the prices of it's products via tariffs, taxation, minimum wage etc. It's not like this is a phenomenon that we can't do anything about (even if you're a fan of those regulations don't deny that they contribute to higher prices). A good case can be made for why these regulations should be repealed, though I admire your Smithian attitude towards free trade. Kudos comrade.

;D
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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5/22/2012 4:21:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:14:57 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:05:17 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Stop with the BS that "Oh the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world."

That's a load of crap. We have the highest MARGINAL rates in the world. The actual paid rate averaged at 12% last year, the lowest its been in three decades (damn Obama's communist tax raises!).

But please, ignore the facts and use only those misleading ones that fit your propaganda.

Note: This post has been flagged for inaccuracy due to the reason: source needed.
Actually, you're right!

The effective corporate tax rate under Obama isn't the lowest in three decades. It's the lowest in FOUR decades.
http://business.time.com...
And why am I not surprised you flagged a comment whose only "fault" was that it presented a view (one actually founded in reality) that contradicted your own.
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Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/22/2012 6:02:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 4:21:46 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:14:57 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:05:17 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Stop with the BS that "Oh the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world."

That's a load of crap. We have the highest MARGINAL rates in the world. The actual paid rate averaged at 12% last year, the lowest its been in three decades (damn Obama's communist tax raises!).

But please, ignore the facts and use only those misleading ones that fit your propaganda.

Note: This post has been flagged for inaccuracy due to the reason: source needed.
Actually, you're right!

The effective corporate tax rate under Obama isn't the lowest in three decades. It's the lowest in FOUR decades.
http://business.time.com...
And why am I not surprised you flagged a comment whose only "fault" was that it presented a view (one actually founded in reality) that contradicted your own.

I say the same article in Time magazine.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

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Ragnar_Rahl
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5/22/2012 6:11:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sen. Schumer went berserk at the thought of people being able to escape taxes.
I find this a remarkable test of who needs whom. A parasite, when presented with political opposition leaving to Singapore is all "No, please don't leave me, I WONT LET YOU....."

Anyone else, presented with political opposition headed to Canada or Europe... "pfft... just get outta here already ya goddamn commie."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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5/23/2012 1:41:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 2:39:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The "corporate tax rate" is a formality. Loopholes permit the corporations to reduce their taxes significantly. Last year, 32 corporations received tax dollars and paid nothing. That's complete nonsense.

Loopholes exist to redirect investment from productive applications of capital to less productive applications. That in itself is extremely damaging to the economy. It also leads to political system where companies must spend time and money on securing loopholes, which is a waste. General Electric is a classic example, where they have secured so many loopholes they pay no taxes at all.

A company thinking of doing business in the United States must be able to master 70,000 pages of tax code so they can tailor their business to all the government incentives. the deal the U.S. offers is ether may the highest taxes in the world or master jumping through a thousand hoops and be willing to make a whole bunch of bad investments to bring down taxes.

Arguments that companies should be willing to take the deal are overcome by the plain fact that they are not.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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5/23/2012 1:50:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:05:17 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Stop with the BS that "Oh the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world."

That's a load of crap. We have the highest MARGINAL rates in the world. The actual paid rate averaged at 12% last year, the lowest its been in three decades (damn Obama's communist tax raises!).

But please, ignore the facts and use only those misleading ones that fit your propaganda.

No, that's not the effective corporate tax rate. It's 23-39%. When including investment income that average ranges from 17-24%.

Start here for research:

http://taxfoundation.org...
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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5/23/2012 1:51:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 2:39:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The "corporate tax rate" is a formality. Loopholes permit the corporations to reduce their taxes significantly. Last year, 32 corporations received tax dollars and paid nothing. That's complete nonsense.

I really hope you are talking about things like GE.

Biggest, stupidest piece of crap media reporting I've ever seen about taxes, that GE article in the NYTimes.

Sources please?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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5/23/2012 1:54:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 9:32:18 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
...I think this is just hoping for opinions on the issue, so...

I don't understand what one can do to stop this, apart from closing the borders from people emigrating abroad. Escaping high tax rates is a legitimate reason to leave a country: just don't expect the low tax country to be any good.

There is ONLY one way to stop this permanently.

Flat
<Consumption>
Tax
.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/23/2012 1:57:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 1:54:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/22/2012 9:32:18 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
...I think this is just hoping for opinions on the issue, so...

I don't understand what one can do to stop this, apart from closing the borders from people emigrating abroad. Escaping high tax rates is a legitimate reason to leave a country: just don't expect the low tax country to be any good.

There is ONLY one way to stop this permanently.

Flat
<Consumption>
Tax
.

Why only that and why are all other possibilities exhausted?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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5/23/2012 1:58:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 1:57:24 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/23/2012 1:54:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/22/2012 9:32:18 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
...I think this is just hoping for opinions on the issue, so...

I don't understand what one can do to stop this, apart from closing the borders from people emigrating abroad. Escaping high tax rates is a legitimate reason to leave a country: just don't expect the low tax country to be any good.

There is ONLY one way to stop this permanently.

Flat
<Consumption>
Tax
.

Why only that and why are all other possibilities exhausted?

It is the final solution for flight due to taxes on earnings.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/23/2012 2:12:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 1:58:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/23/2012 1:57:24 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/23/2012 1:54:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/22/2012 9:32:18 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
...I think this is just hoping for opinions on the issue, so...

I don't understand what one can do to stop this, apart from closing the borders from people emigrating abroad. Escaping high tax rates is a legitimate reason to leave a country: just don't expect the low tax country to be any good.

There is ONLY one way to stop this permanently.

Flat
<Consumption>
Tax
.

Why only that and why are all other possibilities exhausted?

It is the final solution for flight due to taxes on earnings.

Well the iron curtain worked pretty well in the USSR. Plus people can still leave with a flat tax, since taxes will still be high. Higher for the poor who could leave as a result.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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5/23/2012 2:13:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 1:54:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/22/2012 9:32:18 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
...I think this is just hoping for opinions on the issue, so...

I don't understand what one can do to stop this, apart from closing the borders from people emigrating abroad. Escaping high tax rates is a legitimate reason to leave a country: just don't expect the low tax country to be any good.

There is ONLY one way to stop this permanently.

Flat
<Consumption>
Tax
.

Or, at least make an effort to have competitive tax rates...
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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5/23/2012 2:17:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 2:12:42 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well the iron curtain worked pretty well in the USSR. Plus people can still leave with a flat tax, since taxes will still be high. Higher for the poor who could leave as a result.

People can always find any reason to leave. Russia suffered because it lost huge amounts of the best and brightest native talent. Taxes on earnings directy affects this group.

Ask Castro if a mass exodus of poor and depraved individuals was a bad thing for his country when he opened up the jail cells.
darkkermit
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5/23/2012 2:40:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 2:17:10 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:12:42 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well the iron curtain worked pretty well in the USSR. Plus people can still leave with a flat tax, since taxes will still be high. Higher for the poor who could leave as a result.

People can always find any reason to leave. Russia suffered because it lost huge amounts of the best and brightest native talent. Taxes on earnings directy affects this group.

Ask Castro if a mass exodus of poor and depraved individuals was a bad thing for his country when he opened up the jail cells.

Well we can have a flat rate instead a flat tax. Everyone pays $10,000 even If you make less than that.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
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5/23/2012 2:41:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Or better yet, have the rich pay no taxes for them providing so much value on society, and just have the poor pay taxes.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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5/23/2012 2:42:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 2:12:42 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well the iron curtain worked pretty well in the USSR. Plus people can still leave with a flat tax, since taxes will still be high. Higher for the poor who could leave as a result.

I think you have it basically right: the nanny state inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Otherwise people who believe in merit will leave.

The truth is that productivity increases so much with lower taxes and less regulation that everyone is better off.
darkkermit
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5/23/2012 2:53:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 2:42:40 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:12:42 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well the iron curtain worked pretty well in the USSR. Plus people can still leave with a flat tax, since taxes will still be high. Higher for the poor who could leave as a result.

I think you have it basically right: the nanny state inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Otherwise people who believe in merit will leave.

The truth is that productivity increases so much with lower taxes and less regulation that everyone is better off.

The assumption here is that the rich are necessarily the most productive people. That's not necessarily true. Nikola Tesla died poor but was more productive than any inventor. Lawyers are rich but usually cause a great harm to society. Same with politicians and rent-seeker lobbyist.

If people like Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates did not exist, surely someone else would replace them. If every single rich person decided not to work, then society would be more or less the same. Maybe a little bit less productive, but not by much.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...