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Path to Citizenship

Contra
Posts: 3,941
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6/1/2012 8:03:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are around 13 million illegal immigrants in America. Many debates focus on whether or not we should construct a border fence, give amnesty, or deport all the illegal immigrants (costs would range in hundreds of billions of dollars) or engage in self-deportation.

Empirical evidence from various economic research has found that immigration increases productivity in the long run, occupy many essential, low skilled jobs, and overall have found that immigration has no significant net change for job growth and or wages. However, immigration in general has other good benefits on prosperity and the economy:

1) Immigrants reduce price of labor in low skilled fields, helping the economy.

2) Immigrants occupy many low skilled jobs, allowing natives to take more advanced jobs. [1] There is inherent proof of this phenomena. Then, native born Americans can get more education and take higher skilled jobs. [1]

3) Immigrants are more likely to become entrepreneurs than American born citizens. [2] Thus, immigration would increase entrepreneurship and innovation.

4) Immigrants contribute to social security and other payroll taxes for trust funds, that is why many politicians refuse to severely curtail immigration like the rhetoric suggests they might do.

5) Many high skilled immigrants become entrepreneurs, creating new wealth and greater prosperity, or filling jobs that require skill that currently are in need of workers. [2]

6) Illegal immigrants alone contribute more than $7 billion a year towards Social Security, or about 10% of SS current surplus. [3]

I suggest that, so we can facilitate immigration so that born citizens and naturalized citizens can complement themselves in the workforce, we pursue 2 main policy points for a pathway to citizenship:

1. Easing the Pathway from student visa to work visa to green card
2. Clearing green card backlog

So, thus I support a Path to Citizenship for immigrants, to increase the prosperity, entrepreneurship, and innovation of our economy, and protecting Social Security at the same time. Real Progress instead of crazy rhetoric.

Sources:

[1] http://www.nytimes.com...
[2] http://www.brookings.edu...
[3] http://www.nytimes.com...
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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6/1/2012 9:26:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Judging by your sources and points, you are wavering between legal and illegal immigrants. Pick one.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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6/1/2012 9:26:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For ex. Source 2 talks about legal immigrant entrepreneurship rates.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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6/1/2012 9:26:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/1/2012 9:26:02 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Judging by your sources and points, you are wavering between legal and illegal immigrants. Pick one.

They both are beneficial.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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6/1/2012 9:34:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/1/2012 9:26:41 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/1/2012 9:26:02 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Judging by your sources and points, you are wavering between legal and illegal immigrants. Pick one.

They both are beneficial.

The former is not a topic of debate.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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6/1/2012 9:36:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/1/2012 9:34:16 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/1/2012 9:26:41 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/1/2012 9:26:02 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Judging by your sources and points, you are wavering between legal and illegal immigrants. Pick one.

They both are beneficial.

The former is not a topic of debate.

Basically, with all the points I listed I described the benefits of immigration in general. Many, especially legal immigrants, have high skills, while others don't. I described in detail the benefits of each, and suggested a path to citizenship for the illegal immigrants, which 60% or so of Americans support as well.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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6/1/2012 10:00:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I really don't want to argue with you now, but economical reasons do not suppress moral and legal reasons.

If killing a random person made the government get $1 million, would it be justified to do it?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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6/1/2012 10:41:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/1/2012 10:00:05 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I really don't want to argue with you now, but economical reasons do not suppress moral and legal reasons.

There are moral reasons against looser immigration standards? What?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/1/2012 10:47:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
#1 is a bad thing. Since when are low wages good?

I think everyone should realize how obvious everyone's wages in the US would be lower with open immigration.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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6/2/2012 1:00:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/1/2012 10:47:01 PM, darkkermit wrote:
#1 is a bad thing. Since when are low wages good?

I think everyone should realize how obvious everyone's wages in the US would be lower with open immigration.

In the current American economy, which is built on the work provided by a quarter of the population, in jobs such as clerks, janitors, housekeepers, etc, low wages at the bottom quarter allow us to become more competitive. But yes we should allow equal access to opportunity for all citizens. And immigration prevents our labor market from stagnating.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/2/2012 1:25:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/2/2012 1:00:51 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/1/2012 10:47:01 PM, darkkermit wrote:
#1 is a bad thing. Since when are low wages good?

I think everyone should realize how obvious everyone's wages in the US would be lower with open immigration.

In the current American economy, which is built on the work provided by a quarter of the population, in jobs such as clerks, janitors, housekeepers, etc, low wages at the bottom quarter allow us to become more competitive. But yes we should allow equal access to opportunity for all citizens. And immigration prevents our labor market from stagnating.

There is no reason why we need to keep wages low to remain "competitive". Free trade is not a zero sum game. Nations like Sweden that have high wages all around are doing just fine.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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6/2/2012 1:41:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/2/2012 1:25:32 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/2/2012 1:00:51 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/1/2012 10:47:01 PM, darkkermit wrote:
#1 is a bad thing. Since when are low wages good?

I think everyone should realize how obvious everyone's wages in the US would be lower with open immigration.

In the current American economy, which is built on the work provided by a quarter of the population, in jobs such as clerks, janitors, housekeepers, etc, low wages at the bottom quarter allow us to become more competitive. But yes we should allow equal access to opportunity for all citizens. And immigration prevents our labor market from stagnating.


There is no reason why we need to keep wages low to remain "competitive". Free trade is not a zero sum game. Nations like Sweden that have high wages all around are doing just fine.

True. Labor accounts for only about 8% of a company's average revenue.

But low skills of some immigrants would allow natives to more likely get promoted as well.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/2/2012 2:01:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/2/2012 1:41:02 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/2/2012 1:25:32 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/2/2012 1:00:51 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/1/2012 10:47:01 PM, darkkermit wrote:
#1 is a bad thing. Since when are low wages good?

I think everyone should realize how obvious everyone's wages in the US would be lower with open immigration.

In the current American economy, which is built on the work provided by a quarter of the population, in jobs such as clerks, janitors, housekeepers, etc, low wages at the bottom quarter allow us to become more competitive. But yes we should allow equal access to opportunity for all citizens. And immigration prevents our labor market from stagnating.


There is no reason why we need to keep wages low to remain "competitive". Free trade is not a zero sum game. Nations like Sweden that have high wages all around are doing just fine.

True. Labor accounts for only about 8% of a company's average revenue.

But low skills of some immigrants would allow natives to more likely get promoted as well.

Except you have to take into consideration that many Americans will always remain uneducated and low-skilled. Allowing an influx of low-skilled immigrants isn't going to make the low-skilled laborers more skilled. It's just going to make their wages go down.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/2/2012 3:01:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What I want to know is how they are getting jobs without two forms of identification and without an address and why homeless people aren't able to get these things.
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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6/2/2012 3:02:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/2/2012 2:01:54 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/2/2012 1:41:02 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/2/2012 1:25:32 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/2/2012 1:00:51 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/1/2012 10:47:01 PM, darkkermit wrote:
#1 is a bad thing. Since when are low wages good?

I think everyone should realize how obvious everyone's wages in the US would be lower with open immigration.

In the current American economy, which is built on the work provided by a quarter of the population, in jobs such as clerks, janitors, housekeepers, etc, low wages at the bottom quarter allow us to become more competitive. But yes we should allow equal access to opportunity for all citizens. And immigration prevents our labor market from stagnating.


There is no reason why we need to keep wages low to remain "competitive". Free trade is not a zero sum game. Nations like Sweden that have high wages all around are doing just fine.

True. Labor accounts for only about 8% of a company's average revenue.

But low skills of some immigrants would allow natives to more likely get promoted as well.

Except you have to take into consideration that many Americans will always remain uneducated and low-skilled. Allowing an influx of low-skilled immigrants isn't going to make the low-skilled laborers more skilled. It's just going to make their wages go down.

It was concluded that low skilled immigration has prevented wages for low skilled Americans to go up in the past few years, and although not a major cause, it still had the effect. I see where you're coming from.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/2/2012 3:07:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/2/2012 3:01:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
What I want to know is how they are getting jobs without two forms of identification and without an address and why homeless people aren't able to get these things.

a) Some companies and businesses hire illegally.
b) Under the table money. For example, working on someone else's yard, cleaning work. Just go on craiglist and you can post what services your willing to do, or respond to someone's request.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...