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Contra
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6/3/2012 5:41:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Since the US is already at the top of the world in gun ownership, what is the reason for our relatively higher crime rate? Discuss and tell me.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Apollo.11
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6/3/2012 5:47:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A culture that espouses violence and physical force, celebrates the death of others, and rallies around war.
Sapere Aude!
Contra
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6/3/2012 5:48:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:47:22 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
A culture that espouses violence and physical force, celebrates the death of others, and rallies around war.

True. But Japan also has a violent culture, and so does Germany, and so does Britain. They all have violent cultures and still have a low murder rate.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Apollo.11
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6/3/2012 5:49:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:48:37 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:47:22 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
A culture that espouses violence and physical force, celebrates the death of others, and rallies around war.

True. But Japan also has a violent culture, and so does Germany, and so does Britain. They all have violent cultures and still have a low murder rate.

I disagree with that.
Sapere Aude!
Contra
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6/3/2012 5:51:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:49:49 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:48:37 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:47:22 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
A culture that espouses violence and physical force, celebrates the death of others, and rallies around war.

True. But Japan also has a violent culture, and so does Germany, and so does Britain. They all have violent cultures and still have a low murder rate.

I disagree with that.

Japan:

Imperial empire, Samurai warriors, Bushido code in WW2

Germany:

Uh the Nazis, WW1 and WW2.

UK:

World conquest. Global empire. Glorified Monarchy.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Cobo
Posts: 556
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6/3/2012 5:55:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:51:47 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:49:49 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:48:37 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:47:22 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
A culture that espouses violence and physical force, celebrates the death of others, and rallies around war.

True. But Japan also has a violent culture, and so does Germany, and so does Britain. They all have violent cultures and still have a low murder rate.

I disagree with that.

Japan:

Imperial empire, Samurai warriors, Bushido code in WW2

Germany:

Uh the Nazis, WW1 and WW2.

UK:

World conquest. Global empire. Glorified Monarchy.

If you go by historical events, then you will find something on every country.
He's talking bout 90's to now...
Church of the BANHAMMER GODS priest
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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6/3/2012 5:57:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:51:47 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:49:49 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:48:37 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:47:22 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
A culture that espouses violence and physical force, celebrates the death of others, and rallies around war.

True. But Japan also has a violent culture, and so does Germany, and so does Britain. They all have violent cultures and still have a low murder rate.

I disagree with that.

Japan:

Imperial empire, Samurai warriors, Bushido code in WW2
WW2 I will give you. They are still very peaceful, society-oriented people. The fact that they were in a war decades ago is not indicative of the culture today.

Germany:

Uh the Nazis, WW1 and WW2.
You really think people there still have the nazi mentality?

UK:

World conquest. Global empire. Glorified Monarchy.
Hundreds of years ago.

Compare Sweden with the US. That is a fundamental cultural difference.
Sapere Aude!
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/3/2012 6:13:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:41:29 PM, Contra wrote:
Since the US is already at the top of the world in gun ownership, what is the reason for our relatively higher crime rate? Discuss and tell me.

Comparisons of countries with highest levels of gun ownership and highest levels of intentional homicides are as follows:

Most guns(per 100):[1] ---------Homicide rate(per 100,000):[2]

U.S.: 88.8------------------------ 4.8
Serbia: 58.2--------------------- 2.2
Yemen: 54.8--------------------- 4.0
Switzerland: 45.7--------------- 0.66

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...

Whatever causes high crime rates in the U.S., it's inconclusive whether it's gun ownership. My money's on the violent culture though.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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jat93
Posts: 1,440
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6/3/2012 6:31:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A March 2009 academic article in Sociology Compass by Phil Zuckerman of Pitzer College, entitled "Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findings of Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes and Assumptions" analyzed a wide array of data comparing religious nations to less religious nations and also, interestingly, religious states within the United States (i.e. "Bible-belt" states) to less religious states.

Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread." He also states: "Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."

Within the United States, we see the same pattern. Citing census data, he writes: "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."

And these findings are not limited to murder rates, as rates of all violent crime tend to be higher in "religious" states. Zuckerman also points out that atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%).

(From the following article from psychology today: http://www.psychologytoday.com...)

So given that America is considered a pretty religious country... I'm not saying that widespread religiosity is the only factor, it just seems to be a correlation with higher crime rates. There are obviously other more important factors, of which I am unaware, because this is not a subject I know much about.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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6/3/2012 6:44:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
How high is our crime rate with guns?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Stephen_Hawkins
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6/3/2012 6:50:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Correlation and causation doesn't follow. I'd go with people being more politically right wing usually creates more violent solutions to problems. I'd enjoy it if anyone checked the data for this hypothesis.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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6/3/2012 6:55:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 6:50:17 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Correlation and causation doesn't follow. I'd go with people being more politically right wing usually creates more violent solutions to problems. I'd enjoy it if anyone checked the data for this hypothesis.

What kind of right wing? Right wing like neoconservative right wing, right wing like libertarian/anarchistic right wing...?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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6/3/2012 6:57:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:41:29 PM, Contra wrote:
Since the US is already at the top of the world in gun ownership, what is the reason for our relatively higher crime rate? Discuss and tell me.

There is no correlation between gun crimes, and gun ownership, when you examine gun crime rates and gun freedoms in each state.

Gun Crime rates do however correlate with cities and geographical locations. For example states along the southern boarder have higher gun crime rates, with higher gun crime rates in more populated locations.

States like NH which is rural, and away from the southern boarder, has low gun crime rates, regardless of their restrictions on guns.

In NH you can own what ever kind of gun you want, and you don't need a license own or use a firearm, unless you are carrying a firearm in public or in one's vehicle; one can carry without a license if it is a handgun carried openly, or if it unloaded and exposed, or locked up in one's vehicle.

This means 2 things;
1.) gun crime rates are higher in heavier populated areas, like all crime rates, likely due to criminal organizations
2.) gun crime rates are higher the more one approaches the southern border, likely due to illegal immigration, and drug trafficking.

Most importantly it has nothing to do with laws, it has to do with the cultural environment.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
16kadams
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6/3/2012 8:20:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:41:29 PM, Contra wrote:
Since the US is already at the top of the world in gun ownership, what is the reason for our relatively higher crime rate? Discuss and tell me.

You made me lol.

Israel has highest gun ownership I the world - little crime

Switzerland also has high gun ownership - little crime

Russia banned guns - high crime

Also, basic comparisons are very faulty as they ignore many factors. (population, demographics etc).

I recommend you stop using faulty conparisons, I never find them valid. Why? Basic statistical knowledge. It has the endogenity problem. These comparisons are faulty and are therefore not a valid argunment. You must look at trends. Here are the facts: http://www.debate.org...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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6/3/2012 8:21:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 5:48:37 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:47:22 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
A culture that espouses violence and physical force, celebrates the death of others, and rallies around war.

True. But Japan also has a violent culture, and so does Germany, and so does Britain. They all have violent cultures and still have a low murder rate.

No not in modern times. Also UK had huge violent crime problems.

You have never researched this I see
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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6/3/2012 8:23:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 6:50:17 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Correlation and causation doesn't follow. I'd go with people being more politically right wing usually creates more violent solutions to problems. I'd enjoy it if anyone checked the data for this hypothesis.

I have read 2 books and 16 studies: any questions?
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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6/3/2012 8:26:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Contra, in the most comprehensive data in two books: more guns less crime(John Lott), and the bias against guns (Lott), why dies it show a more guns less crime conclusion and show gun control failures? He used to be like you. A liberal on guns. See the video btw.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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6/3/2012 8:37:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 8:20:36 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:41:29 PM, Contra wrote:
Since the US is already at the top of the world in gun ownership, what is the reason for our relatively higher crime rate? Discuss and tell me.

You made me lol.

Israel has highest gun ownership I the world - little crime

Switzerland also has high gun ownership - little crime

Russia banned guns - high crime

Also, basic comparisons are very faulty as they ignore many factors. (population, demographics etc).

I recommend you stop using faulty conparisons, I never find them valid. Why? Basic statistical knowledge. It has the endogenity problem. These comparisons are faulty and are therefore not a valid argunment. You must look at trends. Here are the facts: http://www.debate.org...

You form conclusions rather autistically...

Here's an idea, perhaps gun policy has very little to do with crime rate, and crime is actually proportional to the size and culture of a given country ...radical I know! Bare with me.

Maybe, just maybe, the data you've provided only assumes the weakest correlative relationship b/w policy and crime...not causative, and you'll have to find far more compelling evidence than that nonsense.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/3/2012 8:40:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What we need is to crack down on straw buyers for guns, which is the single biggest means that weapons get into the hands of criminals for criminal usage.

For instance, I think that once someone buys and registers a gun, they should be legally obliged to inform the police if it is stolen. If the gun is used in a crime, and it was not stolen but instead given/sold, the buyer is subject to fines/jail time.

That, along with biometric identification for every gun owner and an universal ballistics database would do more to stop gun crime than outright banning guns.
Steelerman6794
Posts: 158
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6/3/2012 8:43:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 8:37:44 PM, 000ike wrote:

Here's an idea, perhaps gun policy has very little to do with crime rate, and crime is actually proportional to the size and culture of a given country ...radical I know!

I would add economic conditions to the mix. Violent crime spiked in 2008 and 2009, and is now dropping somewhat.

Bare with me.

Tee-hee.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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6/3/2012 9:40:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What I find interesting is why people want guns so bad in the USA compared to other countries. People in many other countries Canada/Europe are fine with not having a gun. Why do Americans feel the need to have a gun?
Contra
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6/3/2012 9:43:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 9:40:13 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What I find interesting is why people want guns so bad in the USA compared to other countries. People in many other countries Canada/Europe are fine with not having a gun. Why do Americans feel the need to have a gun?

Cause they're awesome. Forget the fact that owning a lethal firearm increases the chance you'll shoot a family member by 22 times (a likely scenario is shooting a family member in the bathroom when you hear a noise in there in the middle of the night).

And if the government suddenly banned them, they would have to have to pry them from our cold dead hands.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/3/2012 9:45:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime rate.

http://www.novatownhall.com...

Washington DC actually banned guns in its district for awhile and crime rate went up and was WAY above the US average.
Open borders debate:
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16kadams
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6/3/2012 9:49:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 9:40:13 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What I find interesting is why people want guns so bad in the USA compared to other countries. People in many other countries Canada/Europe are fine with not having a gun. Why do Americans feel the need to have a gun?

Because you obviously have never researched this, thats why.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/3/2012 9:53:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 9:43:22 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 9:40:13 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What I find interesting is why people want guns so bad in the USA compared to other countries. People in many other countries Canada/Europe are fine with not having a gun. Why do Americans feel the need to have a gun?

Cause they're awesome. Forget the fact that owning a lethal firearm increases the chance you'll shoot a family member by 22 times (a likely scenario is shooting a family member in the bathroom when you hear a noise in there in the middle of the night).

And if the government suddenly banned them, they would have to have to pry them from our cold dead hands.

You can respond to this but not the statistics against correlation of gun ownership and crime?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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: I disagree.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/3/2012 10:00:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 9:43:22 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 9:40:13 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What I find interesting is why people want guns so bad in the USA compared to other countries. People in many other countries Canada/Europe are fine with not having a gun. Why do Americans feel the need to have a gun?

Cause they're awesome. Forget the fact that owning a lethal firearm increases the chance you'll shoot a family member by 22 times (a likely scenario is shooting a family member in the bathroom when you hear a noise in there in the middle of the night).

And if the government suddenly banned them, they would have to have to pry them from our cold dead hands.

Should we ban swimming pools? After all, guns are more dangerous than swimming pools.

http://www.freakonomics.com...
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/3/2012 10:04:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 9:45:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
There is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime rate.

http://www.novatownhall.com...

Washington DC actually banned guns in its district for awhile and crime rate went up and was WAY above the US average.

In all fairness, this doesn't take into account the effect of straw purchases which are generally unregistered.

But, as I said, the solution there is regulation, not banning.

We have a second amendment right to individually bear arms. As progressive as I may be, I firmly believe that (although Scalia was a complete moron in his majority opinion).
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/3/2012 10:12:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 10:04:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/3/2012 9:45:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
There is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime rate.

http://www.novatownhall.com...

Washington DC actually banned guns in its district for awhile and crime rate went up and was WAY above the US average.

In all fairness, this doesn't take into account the effect of straw purchases which are generally unregistered.

But, as I said, the solution there is regulation, not banning.

We have a second amendment right to individually bear arms. As progressive as I may be, I firmly believe that (although Scalia was a complete moron in his majority opinion).

How do you think they should be regulated?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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6/3/2012 10:12:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 9:43:22 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 9:40:13 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What I find interesting is why people want guns so bad in the USA compared to other countries. People in many other countries Canada/Europe are fine with not having a gun. Why do Americans feel the need to have a gun?

Cause they're awesome. Forget the fact that owning a lethal firearm increases the chance you'll shoot a family member by 22 times (a likely scenario is shooting a family member in the bathroom when you hear a noise in there in the middle of the night).

Really? people who have guns are a lot more likely to shoot family members than those who don't have guns?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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6/3/2012 10:14:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 9:40:13 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What I find interesting is why people want guns so bad in the USA compared to other countries. People in many other countries Canada/Europe are fine with not having a gun. Why do Americans feel the need to have a gun?

Have you ever shot a gun? gone hunting? skeet shooting? It's a lot of fun.
Also people in Canada are fine without having a gun? What?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler