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Question to Anarcho Communists

jimtimmy
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6/23/2012 1:21:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So, here is my question. How exactly can we have communism without state coercion?

The only way I see it happening is if you believe that total equality is natural and will arise in a stateless society (a total free market).

If this is your belief, this makes anarcho communists the most pro market group of all, because that would mean that they believe inequality only exists because of the state.

I, on the other hand, believe that inequality is rooted in nature and will always exist. So, despite my strong beliefs in a market society, I do not think the state is the cause of all inequality.

If I am missing something here, please correct me.
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Ore_Ele
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6/23/2012 1:26:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:21:11 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
So, here is my question. How exactly can we have communism without state coercion?

The only way I see it happening is if you believe that total equality is natural and will arise in a stateless society (a total free market).

If this is your belief, this makes anarcho communists the most pro market group of all, because that would mean that they believe inequality only exists because of the state.

I, on the other hand, believe that inequality is rooted in nature and will always exist. So, despite my strong beliefs in a market society, I do not think the state is the cause of all inequality.

If I am missing something here, please correct me.

Considering how these often spiral away from Anarchism, you'd probably find the best results (if you are truly interested in an answer) via PM with some of them.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
socialpinko
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6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.
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jimtimmy
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6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.

How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?

Or, even market anarchism?
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FREEDO
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6/23/2012 1:31:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
First, in trying to understand it, you may wish to recognize the differences between Anarcho-Communism and Anarcho-Collectivism. They are two completely different things but they are often confused with each other.

Under Anarcho-Collectivism, there is a structure of unionization that enforces equality.

Under Anarcho-Communism, equality is a default because no market exists and there is no infrastructure to enforce any style of one. It is a gift-economy and operates according to principles of chaotic order much like a free market does.
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jimtimmy
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6/23/2012 1:33:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:31:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
First, in trying to understand it, you may wish to recognize the differences between Anarcho-Communism and Anarcho-Collectivism. They are two completely different things but they are often confused with each other.

Under Anarcho-Collectivism, there is a structure of unionization that enforces equality.

Under Anarcho-Communism, equality is a default because no market exists and there is no infrastructure to enforce any style of one. It is a gift-economy and operates according to principles of chaotic order much like a free market does.

So, if I'm correct, anarcho collectivism really isn't anarchist at all. This structure sounds a lot like a state.

And, anarcho communism is basically just market anarchism, except they have a different view of what the natural state of things would be in a market. Is that correct?
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Ore_Ele
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6/23/2012 1:36:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.


How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?


Or, even market anarchism?

AnCom is more of a collective anarchism. The people pool together with something similar to joint ownership, where they are all get to reap the rewards of the entire group.

I like the example of the farm.

In AnCom, everyone works the farm and everyone gets a share of the crops (how it is decided how the crops get split can vary by subset). In AnCap, there would be a single owner that got all the crops and he would pay the workers some agreed wage and keep the profit.

In both cases, no government is there to do anything, but one is done collectively, and one is done as a business.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
FREEDO
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6/23/2012 1:36:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:33:34 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:31:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
First, in trying to understand it, you may wish to recognize the differences between Anarcho-Communism and Anarcho-Collectivism. They are two completely different things but they are often confused with each other.

Under Anarcho-Collectivism, there is a structure of unionization that enforces equality.

Under Anarcho-Communism, equality is a default because no market exists and there is no infrastructure to enforce any style of one. It is a gift-economy and operates according to principles of chaotic order much like a free market does.


So, if I'm correct, anarcho collectivism really isn't anarchist at all. This structure sounds a lot like a state.

And, anarcho communism is basically just market anarchism, except they have a different view of what the natural state of things would be in a market. Is that correct?

It depends on the standards you use for "Anarchism".
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Ore_Ele
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6/23/2012 1:38:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:36:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.


How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?


Or, even market anarchism?

AnCom is more of a collective anarchism. The people pool together with something similar to joint ownership, where they are all get to reap the rewards of the entire group.

I like the example of the farm.

In AnCom, everyone works the farm and everyone gets a share of the crops (how it is decided how the crops get split can vary by subset). In AnCap, there would be a single owner that got all the crops and he would pay the workers some agreed wage and keep the profit.

In both cases, no government is there to do anything, but one is done collectively, and one is done as a business.

As Freedo stated, there is a difference between AnCom and Anarchist collectivism. And as he said, there is often confusing regarding the two and that when people think "AnCom" they are actually thinking of collectivism. I explained collectivism because I assumed that is what you meant.

Are you more interested in the collectivism or actual AnCom?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
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6/23/2012 1:40:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:36:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.


How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?


Or, even market anarchism?

AnCom is more of a collective anarchism. The people pool together with something similar to joint ownership, where they are all get to reap the rewards of the entire group.

I like the example of the farm.

In AnCom, everyone works the farm and everyone gets a share of the crops (how it is decided how the crops get split can vary by subset). In AnCap, there would be a single owner that got all the crops and he would pay the workers some agreed wage and keep the profit.

In both cases, no government is there to do anything, but one is done collectively, and one is done as a business.

I'm a former ancap.

My view was that we should simply abolish the state and allow what happens in a anarchist soviety to happen.... even if it was somewhat collectivistic.

That was always my view of anarchy.

Perhaps, I was more of an anarchist than an ancap?
President of DDO
jimtimmy
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6/23/2012 1:40:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:38:36 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:36:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.


How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?


Or, even market anarchism?

AnCom is more of a collective anarchism. The people pool together with something similar to joint ownership, where they are all get to reap the rewards of the entire group.

I like the example of the farm.

In AnCom, everyone works the farm and everyone gets a share of the crops (how it is decided how the crops get split can vary by subset). In AnCap, there would be a single owner that got all the crops and he would pay the workers some agreed wage and keep the profit.

In both cases, no government is there to do anything, but one is done collectively, and one is done as a business.

As Freedo stated, there is a difference between AnCom and Anarchist collectivism. And as he said, there is often confusing regarding the two and that when people think "AnCom" they are actually thinking of collectivism. I explained collectivism because I assumed that is what you meant.

Are you more interested in the collectivism or actual AnCom?

I would say ancom.
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socialpinko
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6/23/2012 1:51:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.


How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?


Or, even market anarchism?

You're mis-defining. Voluntaryism is the general anarchist approach. Like minded people can make voluntary agreements and choices but don't force it on anyone else. AnCom's create their communities, same with AnCap's and LibSoc's. Your equivocating market anarchism with voluntaryism here.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
DanT
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6/23/2012 9:26:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Even Karl Marx could not see communism coming about without state coercion. Many Anarcho-communists claim that Karl Marx was an anarchist, and that Anarcho-Communism is the only true form of Anarchism; this is false. It is true Karl Marx believed the state would wither away over time, but only after a single party totalitarian Communist state has been implemented in every nation on earth. This is why we had the cold war; to prevent the spread of communism.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
socialpinko
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6/23/2012 10:06:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 9:26:48 AM, DanT wrote:
Even Karl Marx could not see communism coming about without state coercion. Many Anarcho-communists claim that Karl Marx was an anarchist, and that Anarcho-Communism is the only true form of Anarchism; this is false. It is true Karl Marx believed the state would wither away over time, but only after a single party totalitarian Communist state has been implemented in every nation on earth. This is why we had the cold war; to prevent the spread of communism.

(1) We had the Cold War to see who's balls were fatter and (2) Marx's ideas are not the only on the matter. See Kropotkin.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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Stephen_Hawkins
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6/23/2012 10:21:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Communism states that capitalism (and general competition, war, etc.) has came about by a competition for resources among people. If the resources were distributed equally, people would act morally and healthily, and thus the need to distribute goes down (because less need of a state to distribute, and less need of anyone to give stuff out) and onwards to a point where everyone is satisfied (thus no need for a business or mercantile barter system) and will act morally (thus no need to create a legislature and judiciary) and no need for anyone then to "rule" (thus no executive).
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Ore_Ele
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6/23/2012 10:46:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 9:26:48 AM, DanT wrote:
Even Karl Marx could not see communism coming about without state coercion. Many Anarcho-communists claim that Karl Marx was an anarchist, and that Anarcho-Communism is the only true form of Anarchism; this is false. It is true Karl Marx believed the state would wither away over time, but only after a single party totalitarian Socialist state has been implemented in every nation on earth. This is why we had the cold war; to prevent the spread of communism.

Fixed.
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DanT
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6/23/2012 11:28:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 10:46:53 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/23/2012 9:26:48 AM, DanT wrote:
Even Karl Marx could not see communism coming about without state coercion. Many Anarcho-communists claim that Karl Marx was an anarchist, and that Anarcho-Communism is the only true form of Anarchism; this is false. It is true Karl Marx believed the state would wither away over time, but only after a single party totalitarian Socialist state has been implemented in every nation on earth. This is why we had the cold war; to prevent the spread of communism.

Fixed.

Communism is a form of socialism, but not all socialists are communists. I hate how modern communists proponents claim that communism is not a form socialism, and that socialism is a precursor to communism.

Karl Marx said;
"the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.... this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property... These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.
Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. "

Obviously the state implements communism, and than eventually withers away when it is no longer needed; in order to prevent capitalist influences, and counter revolutions, the state is needed until every nation becomes communist as well.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DetectableNinja
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6/23/2012 3:22:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 1:40:07 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:36:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.


How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?


Or, even market anarchism?

AnCom is more of a collective anarchism. The people pool together with something similar to joint ownership, where they are all get to reap the rewards of the entire group.

I like the example of the farm.

In AnCom, everyone works the farm and everyone gets a share of the crops (how it is decided how the crops get split can vary by subset). In AnCap, there would be a single owner that got all the crops and he would pay the workers some agreed wage and keep the profit.

In both cases, no government is there to do anything, but one is done collectively, and one is done as a business.

I'm a former ancap.

My view was that we should simply abolish the state and allow what happens in a anarchist soviety to happen.... even if it was somewhat collectivistic.

That was always my view of anarchy.

Perhaps, I was more of an anarchist than an ancap?

You mean more of an anarchist-without-adjectives than an ancap?

In any event, that's what I am. Well, I drift between that and Objectivism.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
jimtimmy
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6/23/2012 3:36:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 3:22:26 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:40:07 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:36:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.


How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?


Or, even market anarchism?

AnCom is more of a collective anarchism. The people pool together with something similar to joint ownership, where they are all get to reap the rewards of the entire group.

I like the example of the farm.

In AnCom, everyone works the farm and everyone gets a share of the crops (how it is decided how the crops get split can vary by subset). In AnCap, there would be a single owner that got all the crops and he would pay the workers some agreed wage and keep the profit.

In both cases, no government is there to do anything, but one is done collectively, and one is done as a business.

I'm a former ancap.

My view was that we should simply abolish the state and allow what happens in a anarchist soviety to happen.... even if it was somewhat collectivistic.

That was always my view of anarchy.

Perhaps, I was more of an anarchist than an ancap?

You mean more of an anarchist-without-adjectives than an ancap?

In any event, that's what I am. Well, I drift between that and Objectivism.

Ya, that's what I mean.
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jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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6/23/2012 3:38:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 3:36:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 3:22:26 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:40:07 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:36:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:27:26 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 1:26:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:
People who share common values tend to congregate together. This is how AnCom societies would develop. People who believe that an AnCom society would be best would pool their resources or property and live together according to AnCom principles just like others would with their respective beliefs about societal organization.


How is this exactly different from plain old anarchism?


Or, even market anarchism?

AnCom is more of a collective anarchism. The people pool together with something similar to joint ownership, where they are all get to reap the rewards of the entire group.

I like the example of the farm.

In AnCom, everyone works the farm and everyone gets a share of the crops (how it is decided how the crops get split can vary by subset). In AnCap, there would be a single owner that got all the crops and he would pay the workers some agreed wage and keep the profit.

In both cases, no government is there to do anything, but one is done collectively, and one is done as a business.

I'm a former ancap.

My view was that we should simply abolish the state and allow what happens in a anarchist soviety to happen.... even if it was somewhat collectivistic.

That was always my view of anarchy.

Perhaps, I was more of an anarchist than an ancap?

You mean more of an anarchist-without-adjectives than an ancap?

In any event, that's what I am. Well, I drift between that and Objectivism.



Ya, that's what I mean.

I used to call myself a market anarchist. I kind of think market anarchism is the same thing as anarchism without any adjectives... and, it seems like ancaps and ancoms are basically the same, lol.

Unless someone can explain otherwise...
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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/23/2012 3:47:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 3:38:49 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 6/23/2012 3:36:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:


Ya, that's what I mean.

I used to call myself a market anarchist. I kind of think market anarchism is the same thing as anarchism without any adjectives... and, it seems like ancaps and ancoms are basically the same, lol.

Unless someone can explain otherwise...

AnCaps and AnComs both have specific versions of how their ideal society would function under anarchism. Even if they would not have a problem with the coexistence of other societies, their own positive prescriptions are basically polar opposites.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.