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George Orwell was a Democratic Socialist

Frederick53
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6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.
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Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

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socialpinko
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6/27/2012 10:22:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think his own views regarding totalitarianism are inconsistent with any form of State socialism. When the government is paying for you healthcare, it's natural for them to poke in to your personal lifestyle and habits affecting that. Hayek pretty much had it right in that sense.
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MouthWash
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6/27/2012 10:25:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I wasn't aware anybody needed Orwell to discredit socialism.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Frederick53
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6/27/2012 10:30:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/27/2012 10:22:51 PM, socialpinko wrote:
I think his own views regarding totalitarianism are inconsistent with any form of State socialism. When the government is paying for you healthcare, it's natural for them to poke in to your personal lifestyle and habits affecting that. Hayek pretty much had it right in that sense.

That's why I specified Democratic Socialism, which, ideally, would both retain people's freedoms and privacy while allowing the state to help society however the voters see fit. The key difference is that the government would be subservient to and act according to the people, rather than the people working for the betterment of the government.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
Frederick53
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6/27/2012 10:34:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/27/2012 10:25:39 PM, MouthWash wrote:
I wasn't aware anybody needed Orwell to discredit socialism.

Well I suppose that most people don't and I respect their views. My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
darkkermit
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6/27/2012 10:35:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/27/2012 10:34:20 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:25:39 PM, MouthWash wrote:
I wasn't aware anybody needed Orwell to discredit socialism.

Well I suppose that most people don't and I respect their views. My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.

I've yet to see anyone on DDO actually use Orwell to discredit socialism.
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Frederick53
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6/27/2012 10:48:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/27/2012 10:35:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:34:20 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:25:39 PM, MouthWash wrote:
I wasn't aware anybody needed Orwell to discredit socialism.

Well I suppose that most people don't and I respect their views. My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.

I've yet to see anyone on DDO actually use Orwell to discredit socialism.

And neither have I. However, using 1984 and the term Big Brother to describe a socialist or leftist government is a commonality in current politics, so I thought that this topic would be relevant.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
FREEDO
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6/28/2012 2:10:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
That was a great and horribly depressing book.

Animal Farm depicts well his views on the left, through satire.
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darkkermit
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6/28/2012 2:14:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/27/2012 10:48:35 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:35:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:34:20 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:25:39 PM, MouthWash wrote:
I wasn't aware anybody needed Orwell to discredit socialism.

Well I suppose that most people don't and I respect their views. My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.

I've yet to see anyone on DDO actually use Orwell to discredit socialism.

And neither have I. However, using 1984 and the term Big Brother to describe a socialist or leftist government is a commonality in current politics, so I thought that this topic would be relevant.

I feel as If that's more in reference used to today's government in reference to things like The Patriot Act. Big shout-out to the NDAA bill that allows indefinite detention of american citizens. Oh, and targeting killing which allows american citizens to be killed oversea is a another good one.

This is the reason I'm afraid to travel to Canada. You never know when the US will send their drones to you.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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6/28/2012 8:59:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government

I'm not speculating or twisting the facts.
Yes you are. George Orwell was a socialist, but Big Brother was nothing remotely resembling capitalism. It is impossible to be a capitalist government AND a communist government.

My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.
If his arguments apply to all forms of socialism that can exist in reality (they do) then there is nothing wrong with using them, even if he didn't have the logical consistency to do so.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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6/28/2012 9:02:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Indeed, it's nothing unusual to use an argument someone crafted to argue against something that crafter believes in. It's a form of a basic logical device known as "reductio ad absurdum."

I know people who have tried to use Objectivist ethical arguments to argue against capitalism. While i disagree with their conclusions, there is nothing facially illegitimate about the attempt.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DetectableNinja
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6/28/2012 9:04:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I didn't know this was news. I knew this already.

#hipster
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ragnar_Rahl
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6/28/2012 9:04:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
And btw

1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments
Dictatorship and totalitarianism are two radically different things. One is about who decides what the government does, the other is about the scope of what the government actually does.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Frederick53
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6/28/2012 9:18:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/28/2012 8:59:29 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government

I'm not speculating or twisting the facts.
Yes you are. George Orwell was a socialist, but Big Brother was nothing remotely resembling capitalism. It is impossible to be a capitalist government AND a communist government.

My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.
If his arguments apply to all forms of socialism that can exist in reality (they do) then there is nothing wrong with using them, even if he didn't have the logical consistency to do so.

I worded that first sentence very poorly, so let me clarify. Big Brother COULD have been a capitalist, capitalist, socialist, or communist, if and only if it has been corrupted.

What Orwell believed was that although any system can go bad, as he illustrated of communism in Animal Farm and an undefined system in 1984, a democracy with socialist programs was his choice of government. It wasn't perfect, but he thought that such a government would hold out the longest against fascism. His warning of totalitarianism applied to all forms of government, so one can't use him to bash the type of government they don't like while upholding the type that they do.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
Frederick53
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6/28/2012 9:27:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/28/2012 9:02:39 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Indeed, it's nothing unusual to use an argument someone crafted to argue against something that crafter believes in. It's a form of a basic logical device known as "reductio ad absurdum."

I know people who have tried to use Objectivist ethical arguments to argue against capitalism. While i disagree with their conclusions, there is nothing facially illegitimate about the attempt.

Well I have to disagree, just because it's nothing unusual and you've brought out the Latin word for it doesn't mean that it is a legitimate way to argue your point. You can't use a person to defend your ideology by just ignoring the points upon which they disagreed with you. Well, at least that's what i think, but if this point is up for debate then so is the entire purpose of this topic.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
Frederick53
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6/28/2012 9:31:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/28/2012 9:04:57 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And btw

1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments
Dictatorship and totalitarianism are two radically different things. One is about who decides what the government does, the other is about the scope of what the government actually does.

Slip of the tongue, I guess I was trying to avoid repetition.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
Ragnar_Rahl
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6/28/2012 10:59:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/28/2012 9:18:49 AM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/28/2012 8:59:29 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government

I'm not speculating or twisting the facts.
Yes you are. George Orwell was a socialist, but Big Brother was nothing remotely resembling capitalism. It is impossible to be a capitalist government AND a communist government.

My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.
If his arguments apply to all forms of socialism that can exist in reality (they do) then there is nothing wrong with using them, even if he didn't have the logical consistency to do so.

I worded that first sentence very poorly, so let me clarify. Big Brother COULD have been a capitalist, capitalist, socialist, or communist, if and only if it has been corrupted.
Any corruption sufficient to result in Big Brother is sufficient to not meet the very strict conditions for qualifying as capitalist: that the government take no cognizance of and play no intrusive role in what you do with your property if you initiate neither force nor fraud against others.

His warning of totalitarianism applied to all forms of government
Nothing can apply to the things that definitionally do not permit that thing.

Well I have to disagree, just because it's nothing unusual and you've brought out the Latin word for it doesn't mean that it is a legitimate way to argue your point.
I've brought out the Latin word so you can look up other examples of its usage and see what you're giving up. It's simple logic: If premises A and B imply conclusion C, you have to either accept C or reject A or B. Failure to listen to such arguments is a recipe for contradictions galore.

You can't use a person to defend your ideology by just ignoring the points upon which they disagreed with you.
That is not at all the method being used. That's incidental irrelevant nonsense. It doesn't matter that Einstein for example was a socialist, I can still use his arguments (not his "person") for general relativity, if I buy them. I don't have to also embrace his love of socialism for that.

Slip of the tongue, I guess I was trying to avoid repetition.
So which did you mean?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
jat93
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6/28/2012 11:40:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

But Big Brother cannot arise in a truly "capitalistic government"

A capitalistic government would strictly uphold property rights and the non-aggression principle. No law would violate the individual's right to self-ownership and to do what he pleases as long as he is peaceful and does not intrude on another's right to self-ownership.

Big Brother cannot exist without severely violating property rights and the non-aggression principle.

Anyway, whether Orwell intended the government in 1984 to portray certain things is irrelevant. It's about how readers take the message/analyze it. The meaning of all literature, and indeed all art, is subject to the reader/viewer/listener. If someone feels that 1984 accurately demonstrates the bad parts of a certain form of government, and they can back this up with facts and logic, who cares what Orwell was thinking when he wrote the book...?
DanT
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6/29/2012 12:24:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Actually he was anarcho-socialist... A Big Difference.

Between 1927 and 1934, when asked what his political views were, Orwell would often reply, 'I'm a Tory anarchist'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

By 1936 he began to consider himself socialist rather than Tory, but he was still an anarchist.
In late 1936 he traveled to Spain to fight for the Republicans against the Nationalists.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
The Republicans were mostly socialists, however there were also right wingers fighting on the Republican side, such as the Basque Nationalist Party; which believes in Christian Democracy and regionalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

During the Spanish Civil War he fought in the International Brigades, which was mostly comprised of anti-fascist, socialist, communist, and anarchist volunteers from around the world. George Orwell was a member of POUM due to his affiliation with the independent labour party.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

While he was a member of the Independent Labour Party he wrote, "no writer can be a loyal member of a political party."
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

During the Spanish Civil War, George Orwell had to flee for he life, from Soviet backed forces who wanted to purge the movement of revolutionary socialist dissenters. This made him a life long anti-Stalinist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In 1945 George Orwell Wrote "Animal Farm" criticizing the soviet union, and later in 1948 he wrote "Nineteen Eighty-Four" to criticize the policies of the Clement Attlee (a socialist).
References to Attlee's policies are echoed through the chocolate rations, and the name of Big brother's party, "IngSoc" which is "English Socialism".
Nineteen Eighty-Four was a warning against statism, whether it be nationalist or socialist; George Orwell was primarily an anarchist.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

No Big Brother was a Socialist Government; George Orwell was against blind devotion to parties, as he was against the state. George Orwell favored anarcho-socialism, not government forced socialism.

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

George Orwell was un-theoretica. Some could argue Orwell was almost anti-theoretical. George Orwell also believed that no person or party was above criticism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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6/29/2012 12:41:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/27/2012 10:48:35 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:35:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:34:20 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 10:25:39 PM, MouthWash wrote:
I wasn't aware anybody needed Orwell to discredit socialism.

Well I suppose that most people don't and I respect their views. My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.

I've yet to see anyone on DDO actually use Orwell to discredit socialism.

And neither have I. However, using 1984 and the term Big Brother to describe a socialist or leftist government is a commonality in current politics, so I thought that this topic would be relevant.

It's used to describe a collectivist government; whether it be socialist or nationalist. George Orwell was an individualist; he was an anarchist first and foremost.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Frederick53
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6/29/2012 7:01:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 12:24:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Actually he was anarcho-socialist... A Big Difference.

Between 1927 and 1934, when asked what his political views were, Orwell would often reply, 'I'm a Tory anarchist'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

By 1936 he began to consider himself socialist rather than Tory, but he was still an anarchist.
In late 1936 he traveled to Spain to fight for the Republicans against the Nationalists.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
The Republicans were mostly socialists, however there were also right wingers fighting on the Republican side, such as the Basque Nationalist Party; which believes in Christian Democracy and regionalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

During the Spanish Civil War he fought in the International Brigades, which was mostly comprised of anti-fascist, socialist, communist, and anarchist volunteers from around the world. George Orwell was a member of POUM due to his affiliation with the independent labour party.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

While he was a member of the Independent Labour Party he wrote, "no writer can be a loyal member of a political party."
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

During the Spanish Civil War, George Orwell had to flee for he life, from Soviet backed forces who wanted to purge the movement of revolutionary socialist dissenters. This made him a life long anti-Stalinist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In 1945 George Orwell Wrote "Animal Farm" criticizing the soviet union, and later in 1948 he wrote "Nineteen Eighty-Four" to criticize the policies of the Clement Attlee (a socialist).
References to Attlee's policies are echoed through the chocolate rations, and the name of Big brother's party, "IngSoc" which is "English Socialism".
Nineteen Eighty-Four was a warning against statism, whether it be nationalist or socialist; George Orwell was primarily an anarchist.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

No Big Brother was a Socialist Government; George Orwell was against blind devotion to parties, as he was against the state. George Orwell favored anarcho-socialism, not government forced socialism.


Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

George Orwell was un-theoretica. Some could argue Orwell was almost anti-theoretical. George Orwell also believed that no person or party was above criticism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I'm confused here, because I agree with everything that you've said. I want to make it perfectly clear, because I feel that this is where the confusion is coming from: By democratic socialist, I mean a democracy with socialist programs to help the poor. Everybody seems to assume that by socialist I mean state socialist, which I don't. I know perfectly well that Orwell was an individualist, but he still supported programs to help the poor and vulnerable. I get the feeling that I can't win this argument, since most people here take the slippery slope idea for fact and so any system that utilizes the government to interact with its people in any way, shape, or form will automatically become an overreaching totalitarian state.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
Frederick53
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6/29/2012 7:09:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/28/2012 11:40:06 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

But Big Brother cannot arise in a truly "capitalistic government"

A capitalistic government would strictly uphold property rights and the non-aggression principle. No law would violate the individual's right to self-ownership and to do what he pleases as long as he is peaceful and does not intrude on another's right to self-ownership.

Big Brother cannot exist without severely violating property rights and the non-aggression principle.

Anyway, whether Orwell intended the government in 1984 to portray certain things is irrelevant. It's about how readers take the message/analyze it. The meaning of all literature, and indeed all art, is subject to the reader/viewer/listener. If someone feels that 1984 accurately demonstrates the bad parts of a certain form of government, and they can back this up with facts and logic, who cares what Orwell was thinking when he wrote the book...?

A government can still crack down on its people by passing intrusive laws (like the patriot act) while not implementing socialist policies and programs and leaving you with your land and your ability to start a business.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
Frederick53
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6/29/2012 7:18:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/28/2012 10:59:47 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 6/28/2012 9:18:49 AM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/28/2012 8:59:29 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government

I'm not speculating or twisting the facts.
Yes you are. George Orwell was a socialist, but Big Brother was nothing remotely resembling capitalism. It is impossible to be a capitalist government AND a communist government.

My comments are directed at people who use him, of all people, to enforce their arguments.
If his arguments apply to all forms of socialism that can exist in reality (they do) then there is nothing wrong with using them, even if he didn't have the logical consistency to do so.

I worded that first sentence very poorly, so let me clarify. Big Brother COULD have been a capitalist, capitalist, socialist, or communist, if and only if it has been corrupted.
Any corruption sufficient to result in Big Brother is sufficient to not meet the very strict conditions for qualifying as capitalist: that the government take no cognizance of and play no intrusive role in what you do with your property if you initiate neither force nor fraud against others.


His warning of totalitarianism applied to all forms of government
Nothing can apply to the things that definitionally do not permit that thing.

Well I have to disagree, just because it's nothing unusual and you've brought out the Latin word for it doesn't mean that it is a legitimate way to argue your point.
I've brought out the Latin word so you can look up other examples of its usage and see what you're giving up. It's simple logic: If premises A and B imply conclusion C, you have to either accept C or reject A or B. Failure to listen to such arguments is a recipe for contradictions galore.

You can't use a person to defend your ideology by just ignoring the points upon which they disagreed with you.
That is not at all the method being used. That's incidental irrelevant nonsense. It doesn't matter that Einstein for example was a socialist, I can still use his arguments (not his "person") for general relativity, if I buy them. I don't have to also embrace his love of socialism for that.

Slip of the tongue, I guess I was trying to avoid repetition.
So which did you mean?

I meant totalitarianism. I agree with your ABC analogy, my understanding of what you said was this: A+B=C+D, but it's ok to dismiss C and still agree with D. But in any case, the point is that Orwell did not think that stability was better than freedom, as is the theory of STATE socialism. I am NOT saying that he was a state socialist, and just to clear things up, neither am I. I also agree with Orwell in that if I had to choose between anarcho-capitalism and state-socialism, I would choose the former. I don't think that it is the best system, but yes, freedom always comes first.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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6/29/2012 7:48:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 7:01:14 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/29/2012 12:24:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Actually he was anarcho-socialist... A Big Difference.

Between 1927 and 1934, when asked what his political views were, Orwell would often reply, 'I'm a Tory anarchist'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

By 1936 he began to consider himself socialist rather than Tory, but he was still an anarchist.
In late 1936 he traveled to Spain to fight for the Republicans against the Nationalists.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
The Republicans were mostly socialists, however there were also right wingers fighting on the Republican side, such as the Basque Nationalist Party; which believes in Christian Democracy and regionalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

During the Spanish Civil War he fought in the International Brigades, which was mostly comprised of anti-fascist, socialist, communist, and anarchist volunteers from around the world. George Orwell was a member of POUM due to his affiliation with the independent labour party.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

While he was a member of the Independent Labour Party he wrote, "no writer can be a loyal member of a political party."
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

During the Spanish Civil War, George Orwell had to flee for he life, from Soviet backed forces who wanted to purge the movement of revolutionary socialist dissenters. This made him a life long anti-Stalinist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In 1945 George Orwell Wrote "Animal Farm" criticizing the soviet union, and later in 1948 he wrote "Nineteen Eighty-Four" to criticize the policies of the Clement Attlee (a socialist).
References to Attlee's policies are echoed through the chocolate rations, and the name of Big brother's party, "IngSoc" which is "English Socialism".
Nineteen Eighty-Four was a warning against statism, whether it be nationalist or socialist; George Orwell was primarily an anarchist.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

No Big Brother was a Socialist Government; George Orwell was against blind devotion to parties, as he was against the state. George Orwell favored anarcho-socialism, not government forced socialism.


Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

George Orwell was un-theoretica. Some could argue Orwell was almost anti-theoretical. George Orwell also believed that no person or party was above criticism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I'm confused here, because I agree with everything that you've said. I want to make it perfectly clear, because I feel that this is where the confusion is coming from: By democratic socialist, I mean a democracy with socialist programs to help the poor. Everybody seems to assume that by socialist I mean state socialist, which I don't. I know perfectly well that Orwell was an individualist, but he still supported programs to help the poor and vulnerable. I get the feeling that I can't win this argument, since most people here take the slippery slope idea for fact and so any system that utilizes the government to interact with its people in any way, shape, or form will automatically become an overreaching totalitarian state.

The thing is he wasn't even a democratic socialist; he was a anarcho socialist. Democratic socialists are not libertarian; George Orwell was a libertarian, and an anarcho-socialist.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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6/29/2012 8:11:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 7:48:37 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/29/2012 7:01:14 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/29/2012 12:24:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Actually he was anarcho-socialist... A Big Difference.

Between 1927 and 1934, when asked what his political views were, Orwell would often reply, 'I'm a Tory anarchist'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

By 1936 he began to consider himself socialist rather than Tory, but he was still an anarchist.
In late 1936 he traveled to Spain to fight for the Republicans against the Nationalists.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
The Republicans were mostly socialists, however there were also right wingers fighting on the Republican side, such as the Basque Nationalist Party; which believes in Christian Democracy and regionalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

During the Spanish Civil War he fought in the International Brigades, which was mostly comprised of anti-fascist, socialist, communist, and anarchist volunteers from around the world. George Orwell was a member of POUM due to his affiliation with the independent labour party.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

While he was a member of the Independent Labour Party he wrote, "no writer can be a loyal member of a political party."
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

During the Spanish Civil War, George Orwell had to flee for he life, from Soviet backed forces who wanted to purge the movement of revolutionary socialist dissenters. This made him a life long anti-Stalinist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In 1945 George Orwell Wrote "Animal Farm" criticizing the soviet union, and later in 1948 he wrote "Nineteen Eighty-Four" to criticize the policies of the Clement Attlee (a socialist).
References to Attlee's policies are echoed through the chocolate rations, and the name of Big brother's party, "IngSoc" which is "English Socialism".
Nineteen Eighty-Four was a warning against statism, whether it be nationalist or socialist; George Orwell was primarily an anarchist.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

No Big Brother was a Socialist Government; George Orwell was against blind devotion to parties, as he was against the state. George Orwell favored anarcho-socialism, not government forced socialism.


Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

George Orwell was un-theoretica. Some could argue Orwell was almost anti-theoretical. George Orwell also believed that no person or party was above criticism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I'm confused here, because I agree with everything that you've said. I want to make it perfectly clear, because I feel that this is where the confusion is coming from: By democratic socialist, I mean a democracy with socialist programs to help the poor. Everybody seems to assume that by socialist I mean state socialist, which I don't. I know perfectly well that Orwell was an individualist, but he still supported programs to help the poor and vulnerable. I get the feeling that I can't win this argument, since most people here take the slippery slope idea for fact and so any system that utilizes the government to interact with its people in any way, shape, or form will automatically become an overreaching totalitarian state.


The thing is he wasn't even a democratic socialist; he was a anarcho socialist. Democratic socialists are not libertarian; George Orwell was a libertarian, and an anarcho-socialist.

I'm confused as to what Anarcho-Socialism means as you describe it. How can any form of socialism exist independently of government without being outright communism? I'm pretty certain that Orwell did not want to dissolve government. Orwell cared passionately about freedom, but was also concerned about social injustice, so I don't think that he was a libertarian in the every man for himself sense that most people here associate it.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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6/29/2012 10:03:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 8:11:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/29/2012 7:48:37 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/29/2012 7:01:14 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/29/2012 12:24:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Actually he was anarcho-socialist... A Big Difference.

Between 1927 and 1934, when asked what his political views were, Orwell would often reply, 'I'm a Tory anarchist'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

By 1936 he began to consider himself socialist rather than Tory, but he was still an anarchist.
In late 1936 he traveled to Spain to fight for the Republicans against the Nationalists.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
The Republicans were mostly socialists, however there were also right wingers fighting on the Republican side, such as the Basque Nationalist Party; which believes in Christian Democracy and regionalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

During the Spanish Civil War he fought in the International Brigades, which was mostly comprised of anti-fascist, socialist, communist, and anarchist volunteers from around the world. George Orwell was a member of POUM due to his affiliation with the independent labour party.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

While he was a member of the Independent Labour Party he wrote, "no writer can be a loyal member of a political party."
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

During the Spanish Civil War, George Orwell had to flee for he life, from Soviet backed forces who wanted to purge the movement of revolutionary socialist dissenters. This made him a life long anti-Stalinist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In 1945 George Orwell Wrote "Animal Farm" criticizing the soviet union, and later in 1948 he wrote "Nineteen Eighty-Four" to criticize the policies of the Clement Attlee (a socialist).
References to Attlee's policies are echoed through the chocolate rations, and the name of Big brother's party, "IngSoc" which is "English Socialism".
Nineteen Eighty-Four was a warning against statism, whether it be nationalist or socialist; George Orwell was primarily an anarchist.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

No Big Brother was a Socialist Government; George Orwell was against blind devotion to parties, as he was against the state. George Orwell favored anarcho-socialism, not government forced socialism.


Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

George Orwell was un-theoretica. Some could argue Orwell was almost anti-theoretical. George Orwell also believed that no person or party was above criticism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I'm confused here, because I agree with everything that you've said. I want to make it perfectly clear, because I feel that this is where the confusion is coming from: By democratic socialist, I mean a democracy with socialist programs to help the poor. Everybody seems to assume that by socialist I mean state socialist, which I don't. I know perfectly well that Orwell was an individualist, but he still supported programs to help the poor and vulnerable. I get the feeling that I can't win this argument, since most people here take the slippery slope idea for fact and so any system that utilizes the government to interact with its people in any way, shape, or form will automatically become an overreaching totalitarian state.


The thing is he wasn't even a democratic socialist; he was a anarcho socialist. Democratic socialists are not libertarian; George Orwell was a libertarian, and an anarcho-socialist.

I'm confused as to what Anarcho-Socialism means as you describe it. How can any form of socialism exist independently of government without being outright communism?

1st off Communism is a form of socialism, but not all socialists are communists.
Furthermore Communism requires government to prohibit the acquisition of property.
Anarcho-socialism is any form of socialism, including communism, which is not forced on a people by government. Anarcho-socialism is more anarchist than socialist, and proposes socialism through mutual agreement of the individuals within a stateless society.
George Orwell was against forcing socialism on others.

I'm pretty certain that Orwell did not want to dissolve government. Orwell cared passionately about freedom, but was also concerned about social injustice, so I don't think that he was a libertarian in the every man for himself sense that most people here associate it.

There are two types of libertarians; anarchists, and classic liberals. In the US libertarianism usually refers to classic liberals. Classic liberals are minarchists, and capitalists. Anarchists are for the abolishment of the state. Libertarians are for individualism, and fascists are for collectivism.

"All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. " ~ George Orwell

"It cannot be said too often - at any rate, it is not being said nearly often enough - that collectivism is not inherently democratic, but, on the contrary, gives to a tyrannical minority such powers as the Spanish Inquisitors never dreamt of." ~ George Orwell
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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6/29/2012 10:59:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 10:03:18 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/29/2012 8:11:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/29/2012 7:48:37 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/29/2012 7:01:14 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/29/2012 12:24:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Actually he was anarcho-socialist... A Big Difference.

Between 1927 and 1934, when asked what his political views were, Orwell would often reply, 'I'm a Tory anarchist'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

By 1936 he began to consider himself socialist rather than Tory, but he was still an anarchist.
In late 1936 he traveled to Spain to fight for the Republicans against the Nationalists.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
The Republicans were mostly socialists, however there were also right wingers fighting on the Republican side, such as the Basque Nationalist Party; which believes in Christian Democracy and regionalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

During the Spanish Civil War he fought in the International Brigades, which was mostly comprised of anti-fascist, socialist, communist, and anarchist volunteers from around the world. George Orwell was a member of POUM due to his affiliation with the independent labour party.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

While he was a member of the Independent Labour Party he wrote, "no writer can be a loyal member of a political party."
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

During the Spanish Civil War, George Orwell had to flee for he life, from Soviet backed forces who wanted to purge the movement of revolutionary socialist dissenters. This made him a life long anti-Stalinist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In 1945 George Orwell Wrote "Animal Farm" criticizing the soviet union, and later in 1948 he wrote "Nineteen Eighty-Four" to criticize the policies of the Clement Attlee (a socialist).
References to Attlee's policies are echoed through the chocolate rations, and the name of Big brother's party, "IngSoc" which is "English Socialism".
Nineteen Eighty-Four was a warning against statism, whether it be nationalist or socialist; George Orwell was primarily an anarchist.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

No Big Brother was a Socialist Government; George Orwell was against blind devotion to parties, as he was against the state. George Orwell favored anarcho-socialism, not government forced socialism.


Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

George Orwell was un-theoretica. Some could argue Orwell was almost anti-theoretical. George Orwell also believed that no person or party was above criticism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I'm confused here, because I agree with everything that you've said. I want to make it perfectly clear, because I feel that this is where the confusion is coming from: By democratic socialist, I mean a democracy with socialist programs to help the poor. Everybody seems to assume that by socialist I mean state socialist, which I don't. I know perfectly well that Orwell was an individualist, but he still supported programs to help the poor and vulnerable. I get the feeling that I can't win this argument, since most people here take the slippery slope idea for fact and so any system that utilizes the government to interact with its people in any way, shape, or form will automatically become an overreaching totalitarian state.


The thing is he wasn't even a democratic socialist; he was a anarcho socialist. Democratic socialists are not libertarian; George Orwell was a libertarian, and an anarcho-socialist.

I'm confused as to what Anarcho-Socialism means as you describe it. How can any form of socialism exist independently of government without being outright communism?

1st off Communism is a form of socialism, but not all socialists are communists.
Furthermore Communism requires government to prohibit the acquisition of property.
Anarcho-socialism is any form of socialism, including communism, which is not forced on a people by government. Anarcho-socialism is more anarchist than socialist, and proposes socialism through mutual agreement of the individuals within a stateless society.
George Orwell was against forcing socialism on others.

I'm pretty certain that Orwell did not want to dissolve government. Orwell cared passionately about freedom, but was also concerned about social injustice, so I don't think that he was a libertarian in the every man for himself sense that most people here associate it.

There are two types of libertarians; anarchists, and classic liberals. In the US libertarianism usually refers to classic liberals. Classic liberals are minarchists, and capitalists. Anarchists are for the abolishment of the state. Libertarians are for individualism, and fascists are for collectivism.

"All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. " ~ George Orwell

"It cannot be said too often - at any rate, it is not being said nearly often enough - that collectivism is not inherently democratic, but, on the contrary, gives to a tyrannical minority such powers as the Spanish Inquisitors never dreamt of." ~ George Orwell

Ok, thank you for explaining.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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7/1/2012 1:48:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 7:09:18 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/28/2012 11:40:06 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

But Big Brother cannot arise in a truly "capitalistic government"

A capitalistic government would strictly uphold property rights and the non-aggression principle. No law would violate the individual's right to self-ownership and to do what he pleases as long as he is peaceful and does not intrude on another's right to self-ownership.

Big Brother cannot exist without severely violating property rights and the non-aggression principle.

Anyway, whether Orwell intended the government in 1984 to portray certain things is irrelevant. It's about how readers take the message/analyze it. The meaning of all literature, and indeed all art, is subject to the reader/viewer/listener. If someone feels that 1984 accurately demonstrates the bad parts of a certain form of government, and they can back this up with facts and logic, who cares what Orwell was thinking when he wrote the book...?

A government can still crack down on its people by passing intrusive laws (like the patriot act) while not implementing socialist policies and programs and leaving you with your land and your ability to start a business.

Laws like the Patriot Act totally undermine property rights; property rights are of utmost value in a truly capitalistic society, in fact in a capitalistic society the government exists solely to protect property rights. A government which passes/upholds the Patriot Act is not one that cares about upholding property rights.

The government in 1984 was certainly not a capitalistic society, as none of its qualities match up with capitalism. Can you name me one capitalistic feature of the government in 1984? We're talking about a government that controls the markets (and indeed everything else) in a totalitarian manner. We're talking about a government that exists solely to safeguard its own power, and consistently violates the property rights of its citizens in order to do so.

So no, you can't just say that Orwell portrayed all different types of government... Whether Orwell intended it this way or not, the storyline of the book is pro-individualism, anti-big government (totalitarianism). This much is not really deniable given the plot.
DanT
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7/1/2012 3:01:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 1:48:06 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 6/29/2012 7:09:18 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 6/28/2012 11:40:06 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 6/27/2012 9:53:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
He was. I'm not speculating or twisting the facts. He was very open about his beliefs, and he acted on them. During the Spanish civil war he fought for the forces of the socialist democracy, and he was a member of the worker's party in Great Britain.

Now, just because George Orwell was a democratic socialist doesn't mean you have to be- that's not my logic. I'm not at all saying that you have to agree with him. My point is that Big Brother is not only a socialist government- it is a capitalist government, and a communist government, or any other government that has become corrupted. 1984 portrayed one of Orwell's greatest hatreds, which is totalitarianism of any kind. Dictatorships can arise from both socialist and capitalist governments, and George Orwell never claimed that one system was less susceptible than the other.

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but I have encountered many people who use Orwell to discredit socialism, and it really gets frustrating.

But Big Brother cannot arise in a truly "capitalistic government"

A capitalistic government would strictly uphold property rights and the non-aggression principle. No law would violate the individual's right to self-ownership and to do what he pleases as long as he is peaceful and does not intrude on another's right to self-ownership.

Big Brother cannot exist without severely violating property rights and the non-aggression principle.

Anyway, whether Orwell intended the government in 1984 to portray certain things is irrelevant. It's about how readers take the message/analyze it. The meaning of all literature, and indeed all art, is subject to the reader/viewer/listener. If someone feels that 1984 accurately demonstrates the bad parts of a certain form of government, and they can back this up with facts and logic, who cares what Orwell was thinking when he wrote the book...?

A government can still crack down on its people by passing intrusive laws (like the patriot act) while not implementing socialist policies and programs and leaving you with your land and your ability to start a business.

Laws like the Patriot Act totally undermine property rights; property rights are of utmost value in a truly capitalistic society, in fact in a capitalistic society the government exists solely to protect property rights. A government which passes/upholds the Patriot Act is not one that cares about upholding property rights.

The government in 1984 was certainly not a capitalistic society, as none of its qualities match up with capitalism. Can you name me one capitalistic feature of the government in 1984? We're talking about a government that controls the markets (and indeed everything else) in a totalitarian manner. We're talking about a government that exists solely to safeguard its own power, and consistently violates the property rights of its citizens in order to do so.

Not only was there central planning in 1984 but there was also prohibitions on the purchase of certain goods. One of Winston's crimes was purchasing prohibited items. Furthermore it was anti-individualist; everything was for the good of the party and for the good of the community.

In 1984 classes were sociopolitical not socioeconomic; just as they were in the USSR.
The Inner Party was the politicians, the Outer Party was the state's bureaucrats, and the poles were the uneducated workers.

The Party was called IngSoc which is newpeak for English socialism. The concept of NewSpeak comes from the polices of soviet union, where they destroyed and reinvented words, while using political correctness to control the thoughts of the populace.

So no, you can't just say that Orwell portrayed all different types of government... Whether Orwell intended it this way or not, the storyline of the book is pro-individualism, anti-big government (totalitarianism). This much is not really deniable given the plot.

I agree.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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7/1/2012 4:55:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
IngSoc didn't like Capitalists; this was reflected in their Public Education lessons.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle