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Socialized Medicine and Cost Control

JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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7/1/2012 2:46:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Advocates for socialized medicine have long claimed that government run or single payer health care would lead to a reduction in health care costs. However, the empirical evidence contradicts that.

Here is the average growth rate of real health spending per capita from 2000 to 2010, the most recent decade, for the UK, Canada, and the USA:

UK: 6.5%

Canada: 5.8%

USA: 5.6%

In fact, the UK, with fully socialized medicine, has the highest growth rate in medical expenses of any of the countries and Canada, with single payer, is second. The USA actually has done the best job of containing health costs over the decade.

Advocates of socialized medicine have some explaining to do.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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7/1/2012 4:13:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
By the way, these numbers are available on the OECD website under "Frequently Requested Health Data". You have to have excel to download it though.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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7/1/2012 11:48:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, funny thing. The Canadians have had approximately 14% of their health expenses come from out-of-pocket. Since 1990. The US started at around 20% in 1990, and is now sitting a bit above 11% according to the most recent data. Less than Denmark, which has gone from 16.3% to 13.2% over two decades. Sweden has sat between 16 and 17% for several years. Really, of the big players, only the French and the English have lower OOP expenditures. But even then, the rates are what matter. Over 20 years, the French went from a little over 11% to 7.3%. The UK? 10.6% to 8.9%. All with several fluctuations in the intermittent years. So, on balance, the US not only has some of the lowest OOP spending--it's also pretty high up in terms of the rate at which OOP expenditure has declined. So, if you want to talk about subsidized health care, we're a pretty good model. Like, thing is, we just have a bunch of redundant systems. The other countries only do better because they're smaller and less redundant.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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7/1/2012 11:55:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Nice thing about Canada is that they can fund extra fun social projects since America foots the bill for their military protection. Canada should pay us tribute!
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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7/1/2012 12:00:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 11:58:33 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/1/2012 11:55:37 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Nice thing about Canada is that they can fund extra fun social projects since America foots the bill for their military protection. Canada should pay us tribute!

They do sell us a lot of oil...

They have more unpopulated natural environment to trash. It's not fair!
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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7/1/2012 12:01:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, another thing--one reason that our medical costs are so high, apart from the subsidy-price relation, is specifically that we buy way more drugs than all the other countries. Like, per capita PPP, we spend almost $1,000. The next closest country is Canada, and they spend about $750. Longitudinally, growth rates appear to be pretty similar, though.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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7/1/2012 12:04:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 12:01:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, another thing--one reason that our medical costs are so high, apart from the subsidy-price relation, is specifically that we buy way more drugs than all the other countries. Like, per capita PPP, we spend almost $1,000. The next closest country is Canada, and they spend about $750. Longitudinally, growth rates appear to be pretty similar, though.

We also have artificially inflated prices for our drugs. Many American consumers simply do not have access to cheap Canadian generic drugs.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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7/1/2012 12:10:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 12:04:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:01:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, another thing--one reason that our medical costs are so high, apart from the subsidy-price relation, is specifically that we buy way more drugs than all the other countries. Like, per capita PPP, we spend almost $1,000. The next closest country is Canada, and they spend about $750. Longitudinally, growth rates appear to be pretty similar, though.

We also have artificially inflated prices for our drugs. Many American consumers simply do not have access to cheap Canadian generic drugs.

Probably a good point. I think US patent law is largely to blame for that. Like, the Italians had a pretty badass pharmaceutical industry before the mid/late 70s, when they got more concrete [medical] patent law. All these big ol' subsidized drug companies are really good about getting patents, and being wankers about monopolizing particular drugs. "They need an incentive to innovate" my @ss. :P
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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7/1/2012 12:12:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 12:10:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:04:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:01:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, another thing--one reason that our medical costs are so high, apart from the subsidy-price relation, is specifically that we buy way more drugs than all the other countries. Like, per capita PPP, we spend almost $1,000. The next closest country is Canada, and they spend about $750. Longitudinally, growth rates appear to be pretty similar, though.

We also have artificially inflated prices for our drugs. Many American consumers simply do not have access to cheap Canadian generic drugs.

Probably a good point. I think US patent law is largely to blame for that. Like, the Italians had a pretty badass pharmaceutical industry before the mid/late 70s, when they got more concrete [medical] patent law. All these big ol' subsidized drug companies are really good about getting patents, and being wankers about monopolizing particular drugs. "They need an incentive to innovate" my @ss. :P

Nahhh.... big pharma is responsible for the regulations. Follow the money... legislation bought and paid for.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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7/1/2012 12:15:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 12:12:21 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:10:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:04:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:01:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, another thing--one reason that our medical costs are so high, apart from the subsidy-price relation, is specifically that we buy way more drugs than all the other countries. Like, per capita PPP, we spend almost $1,000. The next closest country is Canada, and they spend about $750. Longitudinally, growth rates appear to be pretty similar, though.

We also have artificially inflated prices for our drugs. Many American consumers simply do not have access to cheap Canadian generic drugs.

Probably a good point. I think US patent law is largely to blame for that. Like, the Italians had a pretty badass pharmaceutical industry before the mid/late 70s, when they got more concrete [medical] patent law. All these big ol' subsidized drug companies are really good about getting patents, and being wankers about monopolizing particular drugs. "They need an incentive to innovate" my @ss. :P

Nahhh.... big pharma is responsible for the regulations. Follow the money... legislation bought and paid for.

Uh... yeah, I guess in part. But you can't preface that statement with "Nahhh" as if what you say is in some kind of tension with what I've said. Cuz they're both basically the same thing.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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7/1/2012 12:19:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 12:15:57 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:12:21 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:10:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:04:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:01:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, another thing--one reason that our medical costs are so high, apart from the subsidy-price relation, is specifically that we buy way more drugs than all the other countries. Like, per capita PPP, we spend almost $1,000. The next closest country is Canada, and they spend about $750. Longitudinally, growth rates appear to be pretty similar, though.

We also have artificially inflated prices for our drugs. Many American consumers simply do not have access to cheap Canadian generic drugs.

Probably a good point. I think US patent law is largely to blame for that. Like, the Italians had a pretty badass pharmaceutical industry before the mid/late 70s, when they got more concrete [medical] patent law. All these big ol' subsidized drug companies are really good about getting patents, and being wankers about monopolizing particular drugs. "They need an incentive to innovate" my @ss. :P

Nahhh.... big pharma is responsible for the regulations. Follow the money... legislation bought and paid for.

Uh... yeah, I guess in part. But you can't preface that statement with "Nahhh" as if what you say is in some kind of tension with what I've said. Cuz they're both basically the same thing.

Well I guess, but I would think the FDA regulations and restrictions on where you can buy your drugs with Medicare part D plays a much larger role than patent law.

I am not contentious by nature! <3
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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7/1/2012 2:18:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 12:19:57 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:15:57 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:12:21 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:10:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:04:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:01:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, another thing--one reason that our medical costs are so high, apart from the subsidy-price relation, is specifically that we buy way more drugs than all the other countries. Like, per capita PPP, we spend almost $1,000. The next closest country is Canada, and they spend about $750. Longitudinally, growth rates appear to be pretty similar, though.

We also have artificially inflated prices for our drugs. Many American consumers simply do not have access to cheap Canadian generic drugs.

Probably a good point. I think US patent law is largely to blame for that. Like, the Italians had a pretty badass pharmaceutical industry before the mid/late 70s, when they got more concrete [medical] patent law. All these big ol' subsidized drug companies are really good about getting patents, and being wankers about monopolizing particular drugs. "They need an incentive to innovate" my @ss. :P

Nahhh.... big pharma is responsible for the regulations. Follow the money... legislation bought and paid for.

Uh... yeah, I guess in part. But you can't preface that statement with "Nahhh" as if what you say is in some kind of tension with what I've said. Cuz they're both basically the same thing.

Well I guess, but I would think the FDA regulations and restrictions on where you can buy your drugs with Medicare part D plays a much larger role than patent law.

Not really. It scales depending on whether the drug is cutting-edge. If you can't even make limited numbers of generics, then patent law has a lot to do with it. Not that monopolistic powers granted through purchasing restrictions aren't also a big deal.

I am not contentious by nature! <3
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/1/2012 4:22:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You guys are crazy. The free market makes everything too expensive Norway gets their shitt free and they're way better and our greedy capitalists hate poor people, etc. etc.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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Contra
Posts: 3,941
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7/1/2012 10:29:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://www.debate.org...

^ I rebutted in this thread.
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rionR
Posts: 1
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12/18/2013 8:00:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Medicines are truly costly these days. When your child is sick, much of the time you need medication. You have to get the medicine or else your child may never get over the illness, but it costs a lot. The best way you can pay for it may be to get a payday loan.
Ayyuba
Posts: 218
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12/18/2013 2:34:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/1/2012 4:22:42 PM, socialpinko wrote:
You guys are crazy. The free market makes everything too expensive Norway gets their shitt free and they're way better and our greedy capitalists hate poor people, etc. etc.

Not really. The current gov overtaxes everything and drives up prices.
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