Total Posts:44|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

I Agree With Obamas Controversial Remark

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama

.
.
.
.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2012 9:46:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes and no. He's right that part of the reason that we succeeded was because of public goods. He's wrong in that other people paid for the public goods- you did for your usage with your taxpayer money.

Other than that, his entire rant is unsubstantiated. For this area, you need concrete mathematical analysis for analyzing the usage of public goods and the corresponding amount that people should pay for taxes- none of which has been provided. As of now, it is simply rhetoric.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2012 9:53:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The people up in arms are right-wingers. Right-wingers tend to have internal loci of control, and don't understand the psychological importance of keeping it balanced. They typically don't see anything wrong with ambition and selfishness, because they don't understand the moral significance of greed. They typically don't understand that even if everyone was a perfectly hard-working Christian businessman who didn't even sleep at night because he was too concerned with profit, that there's just not enough resources for everyone to live in a nice house, drive an SUV, and be a member at the yacht club - they would have to understand environmental science to know that.

Right-wingers are more concerned with economics, business, law, Christianity, and politics - disciplines that are not based on natural, physical phenomena... they are based on arbitrary rules made up by people who are in control of society. They make their living off of down-playing the natural and social sciences while making arguments based on these arbitrary disciplines. You can't beat them at their own game, because these disciplines are games inherently and you can play until the end of time without a clear winner.
Rob
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2012 9:54:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama





.
.
.
.
And this is why I support Obama. He is a progressive at heart.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2012 10:09:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 9:54:53 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama





.
.
.
.
And this is why I support Obama. He is a progressive at heart.

Now if only he would halt drone strikes and stop trying to (or allowing others in his administration to) start a war with Iran and I would feel very much inclined to support him.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2012 10:15:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 10:09:09 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 7/17/2012 9:54:53 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama





.
.
.
.
And this is why I support Obama. He is a progressive at heart.

Now if only he would halt drone strikes and stop trying to (or allowing others in his administration to) start a war with Iran and I would feel very much inclined to support him.

I do not agree with many of his actions, such as these ^, keeping the patriot act, etc., but neither would the other side do any better. Obama is closer to my side economically, on some accounts, like the OP.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2012 10:16:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 10:09:09 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 7/17/2012 9:54:53 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama





.
.
.
.
And this is why I support Obama. He is a progressive at heart.

Now if only he would halt drone strikes and stop trying to (or allowing others in his administration to) start a war with Iran and I would feel very much inclined to support him.

Lol that. Obama's a nice guy, so long as you're American and don't do drugs.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2012 10:18:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 9:53:20 PM, Lasagna wrote:
The people up in arms are right-wingers. Right-wingers tend to have internal loci of control, and don't understand the psychological importance of keeping it balanced. They typically don't see anything wrong with ambition and selfishness, because they don't understand the moral significance of greed. They typically don't understand that even if everyone was a perfectly hard-working Christian businessman who didn't even sleep at night because he was too concerned with profit, that there's just not enough resources for everyone to live in a nice house, drive an SUV, and be a member at the yacht club - they would have to understand environmental science to know that.

Right-wingers are more concerned with economics, business, law, Christianity, and politics - disciplines that are not based on natural, physical phenomena... they are based on arbitrary rules made up by people who are in control of society. They make their living off of down-playing the natural and social sciences while making arguments based on these arbitrary disciplines. You can't beat them at their own game, because these disciplines are games inherently and you can play until the end of time without a clear winner.

And somehow a Public Good is a natural, physical phenomena? 'Cause that's what Obama is talking about.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 10:09:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
President Obama's remark is literally true. That's beside the point.

Michael Reagan tells the story of Ronald Reagan running for governor against Pat Brown. Brown ran an ad that include a conversation between Brown a school kid. At one point, the kid asks Brown who he is running against. Brown replies, "I'm running against an actor. It was an actor who shot Lincoln." Yup, literally true.

Obama's remark shows how he feels about the importance of government relative to the importance of the individual. Obama as speaking without a teleprompter, something he has rarely done in the past.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 10:28:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama

All this really demonstrates, so far as I can tell, is the inability to engage in creative counterfactual thinking. The bare statement is "government provided certain things of which you, the successful person, made use". The implication is not only "you should pay for those things, but also, "You could not have done this without government."

The obvious counterargument, though, is that we cannot pretend that communities would stagnate and die without a central controller giving orders to everyone. There are plenty of cases where states either didn't or couldn't step in--in the natural course of their "obligations"--in which normal people stood up instead: cases of people building roads, fighting fires, schooling their children, etc.

It's like saying "I built this table, and you put stuff on it." That doesn't imply that I needed to build the table, or that I'm the only capable table-builder--in fact, there are plenty of people more skilled than I at building tables. It just means that, to the exclusion of all alternative opportunities and agents, I built this table.

Sans government, it's not as if we lose firefighters, civil engineers, land surveyors, construction workers, etc. The skills are still there--we only lose the opaque bureaucracies which administrate and direct those skills. And, hell, I'm sure some of those people will blow over into the private sector, too.
THE_OPINIONATOR
Posts: 575
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 10:44:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 10:28:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama

All this really demonstrates, so far as I can tell, is the inability to engage in creative counterfactual thinking. The bare statement is "government provided certain things of which you, the successful person, made use". The implication is not only "you should pay for those things, but also, "You could not have done this without government."

The obvious counterargument, though, is that we cannot pretend that communities would stagnate and die without a central controller giving orders to everyone. There are plenty of cases where states either didn't or couldn't step in--in the natural course of their "obligations"--in which normal people stood up instead: cases of people building roads, fighting fires, schooling their children, etc.

It's like saying "I built this table, and you put stuff on it." That doesn't imply that I needed to build the table, or that I'm the only capable table-builder--in fact, there are plenty of people more skilled than I at building tables. It just means that, to the exclusion of all alternative opportunities and agents, I built this table.

Sans government, it's not as if we lose firefighters, civil engineers, land surveyors, construction workers, etc. The skills are still there--we only lose the opaque bureaucracies which administrate and direct those skills. And, hell, I'm sure some of those people will blow over into the private sector, too.

In other words, His brain is like a diving pool that's only five feet deep?
My Blog: Life Through The Eyes of a Christian

http://bloggingforjchrist.blogspot.com...

Life Through The Eyes of a Christian Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com...
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 10:47:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 10:44:18 AM, THE_OPINIONATOR wrote:
At 7/18/2012 10:28:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
All this really demonstrates, so far as I can tell, is the inability to engage in creative counterfactual thinking. The bare statement is "government provided certain things of which you, the successful person, made use". The implication is not only "you should pay for those things, but also, "You could not have done this without government."

The obvious counterargument, though, is that we cannot pretend that communities would stagnate and die without a central controller giving orders to everyone. There are plenty of cases where states either didn't or couldn't step in--in the natural course of their "obligations"--in which normal people stood up instead: cases of people building roads, fighting fires, schooling their children, etc.

It's like saying "I built this table, and you put stuff on it." That doesn't imply that I needed to build the table, or that I'm the only capable table-builder--in fact, there are plenty of people more skilled than I at building tables. It just means that, to the exclusion of all alternative opportunities and agents, I built this table.

Sans government, it's not as if we lose firefighters, civil engineers, land surveyors, construction workers, etc. The skills are still there--we only lose the opaque bureaucracies which administrate and direct those skills. And, hell, I'm sure some of those people will blow over into the private sector, too.

In other words, His brain is like a diving pool that's only five feet deep?

I don't think Obama is dumb--far from it. But I also think that a lot of smart people are trapped in the thought patterns and discourses of statism to such an extent that they can't imagine a world external to those confines.
THE_OPINIONATOR
Posts: 575
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 10:56:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 10:47:15 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/18/2012 10:44:18 AM, THE_OPINIONATOR wrote:
At 7/18/2012 10:28:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
All this really demonstrates, so far as I can tell, is the inability to engage in creative counterfactual thinking. The bare statement is "government provided certain things of which you, the successful person, made use". The implication is not only "you should pay for those things, but also, "You could not have done this without government."

The obvious counterargument, though, is that we cannot pretend that communities would stagnate and die without a central controller giving orders to everyone. There are plenty of cases where states either didn't or couldn't step in--in the natural course of their "obligations"--in which normal people stood up instead: cases of people building roads, fighting fires, schooling their children, etc.

It's like saying "I built this table, and you put stuff on it." That doesn't imply that I needed to build the table, or that I'm the only capable table-builder--in fact, there are plenty of people more skilled than I at building tables. It just means that, to the exclusion of all alternative opportunities and agents, I built this table.

Sans government, it's not as if we lose firefighters, civil engineers, land surveyors, construction workers, etc. The skills are still there--we only lose the opaque bureaucracies which administrate and direct those skills. And, hell, I'm sure some of those people will blow over into the private sector, too.

In other words, His brain is like a diving pool that's only five feet deep?

I don't think Obama is dumb--far from it. But I also think that a lot of smart people are trapped in the thought patterns and discourses of statism to such an extent that they can't imagine a world external to those confines.

That is true, sadly and I think if he changed how he thought on a deeper level people would take him more seriously along with a whole different administration.
My Blog: Life Through The Eyes of a Christian

http://bloggingforjchrist.blogspot.com...

Life Through The Eyes of a Christian Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com...
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 11:02:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 10:56:14 AM, THE_OPINIONATOR wrote:
At 7/18/2012 10:47:15 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I don't think Obama is dumb--far from it. But I also think that a lot of smart people are trapped in the thought patterns and discourses of statism to such an extent that they can't imagine a world external to those confines.

That is true, sadly and I think if he changed how he thought on a deeper level people would take him more seriously along with a whole different administration.

Well, plenty of people do take him seriously, which is my problem. Given that I'm an anarchist, my goal is for people not to participate in the state's politics, and not to willingly submit to a big pool of administrators.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 12:50:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This explains why Obama treats Goldman Sachs so well--he's just giving back to the people that helped him get to where he is today.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 1:32:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let me make clear that I don't agree with Obamas intent to justify more government intervention and reliance on help from the government. I was simply agreeing with what he said just taken by itself, not its implications for policy.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,291
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 1:34:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yeah, well, there is the assumption that centralized bureaucracy is good....
(Lenin would agree)

Just like we all assume anything labeled Organic is good for you because of course toxins do not really exist naturally.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 1:44:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.
Let's analyze:

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life."
No one is saying otherwise; he is basically speaking in platitudes. EVERYONE gets help from others.

"Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive."
This sounds harmless BUT one has to think why did he choose SOMEBODY and not EVERYBODY? It is because he is referring to somebody: Government.

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."
"The Government invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. The Government else made (allowed) that happen."

"The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."
And now he finally let's us know who was that SOMEBODY he was talking about!

He couldn't be more hopelessly wrong! ARPANET (Advanced Research Projects Agency Network) was the precursor to the Internet and was funded by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) of the United States DOD (Department of Defense) for use by its projects at universities and research laboratories in the US. Oh wait, my bad...Al Gore invented the Internet!

Anyways, ARPANET was funded by the government and predominantly used PRIVATE sector contracts to created it! Regardless, the internet is MUCH MORE than ARPANET and is basically a collection of networks that are privately created, owned, and maintained!

Lastly, the government didn't create the internet "so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."
Another platitude; no one is saying otherwise.

"There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires."
Strawman, no one is suggesting this.

"So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together."
Another platitude; no one is saying otherwise.

"That's how we funded the GI Bill."
Non sequitur.

"That's how we created the middle class."
We live in a classless society, last I checked.

"That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."
All these things were done thanks to the private sector that got contracted to do so and people's ability to live as free from tyranny as possible.

-- Barack Obama

And people say he isn't a Marxist? BS!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 4:00:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama



He is right that the economy is interconnected and that success in one industry leads to the success of another and the failure of one industry leads to the failure of another. His general message is what is wrong.

He is wrong about people being helped to the top. If there is any collaboration done between two entities within the economy, it is self serving. A corporation chooses a construction company to build their office building; the corporation gains an office building, and the construction company gains a commission for their job.

When the government hires a construction company to build a road, they do it in order to gain votes from the people who need the road built. The people hire the government, and the government hires the construction company. Other than the interstate and posted roads, building and maintaining roads is a state power.

When the government chooses to hire a private firm, they do so based on the firm's ability vs affordability, compared to their competitors. The firm was not handed the contract, they earned it. The building of those roads was not the government's doing, it was the construction company hired by the government. The government is the customer, or should I say the government is a Representative of the customer. Due to the demand for those roads, the construction company best qualified was hired to construct the road.

So no, the companies did not have "help", the quality of their work is what determined their success.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 4:59:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 1:44:41 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.
Let's analyze:

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life."
No one is saying otherwise; he is basically speaking in platitudes. EVERYONE gets help from others.

"Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive."
This sounds harmless BUT one has to think why did he choose SOMEBODY and not EVERYBODY? It is because he is referring to somebody: Government.

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."
"The Government invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. The Government else made (allowed) that happen."

"The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."
And now he finally let's us know who was that SOMEBODY he was talking about!


He couldn't be more hopelessly wrong! ARPANET (Advanced Research Projects Agency Network) was the precursor to the Internet and was funded by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) of the United States DOD (Department of Defense) for use by its projects at universities and research laboratories in the US. Oh wait, my bad...Al Gore invented the Internet!

Anyways, ARPANET was funded by the government and predominantly used PRIVATE sector contracts to created it! Regardless, the internet is MUCH MORE than ARPANET and is basically a collection of networks that are privately created, owned, and maintained!

Lastly, the government didn't create the internet "so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."
Another platitude; no one is saying otherwise.

"There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires."
Strawman, no one is suggesting this.

"So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together."
Another platitude; no one is saying otherwise.

"That's how we funded the GI Bill."
Non sequitur.

"That's how we created the middle class."
We live in a classless society, last I checked.

"That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."
All these things were done thanks to the private sector that got contracted to do so and people's ability to live as free from tyranny as possible.

-- Barack Obama

And people say he isn't a Marxist? BS!

A really interesting post. But the underlined doesn't sit right with me, not initially anyway; if the government funds the heck out of something, why does that mean that the government didn't do it? I mean, if a corporation were to outsource their R&D to a separate specialized firm, and threw $ at it, wouldn't that make any R&D-related innovation, partly at-least, the former corporation's success?
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 5:00:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 9:38:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everyone is in up in arms over this statement, but Obama is actually right on this.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon."

-- Barack Obama

I definitely agree with this



.
.
.
.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 5:04:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Most of this is accurate unless you take it one step further and declare it means if you are successful, you should pay more taxes to the government.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 5:20:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 4:59:20 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
A really interesting post. But the underlined doesn't sit right with me, not initially anyway; if the government funds the heck out of something, why does that mean that the government didn't do it?
Because all the government did was be a middle man. They did not create anything. Regardless, it is missing the point.

I mean, if a corporation were to outsource their R&D to a separate specialized firm, and threw $ at it, wouldn't that make any R&D-related innovation, partly at-least, the former corporation's success?
Depends how you define success. Company B (commissioned) is successful in getting paid for creating research development; Company A (commissioner) is successful in acquiring research development. The point here is that this was done by the free market and if they fail, then they will go out of business.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 5:27:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 5:20:26 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/18/2012 4:59:20 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
A really interesting post. But the underlined doesn't sit right with me, not initially anyway; if the government funds the heck out of something, why does that mean that the government didn't do it?
Because all the government did was be a middle man. They did not create anything. Regardless, it is missing the point.


"Be a middle man" - I don't understand, didn't the government tender the contract? Is the employer the "middle-man" when he pays an employee a wage in return for labor (although an investor, possibly the sole investor, is probably a fairer analogy)? At worst, you'd be arguing about whether the government investing in the internet, or proto-internet, was a wise allocation.

I mean, if a corporation were to outsource their R&D to a separate specialized firm, and threw $ at it, wouldn't that make any R&D-related innovation, partly at-least, the former corporation's success?
Depends how you define success. Company B (commissioned) is successful in getting paid for creating research development; Company A (commissioner) is successful in acquiring research development. The point here is that this was done by the free market and if they fail, then they will go out of business.

Sure, and if the project/s had failed, the government would have lost their investment.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 5:40:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That's not a remark, that's about ten remarks, several of which (any that use "we" as an agent) are incoherent.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,291
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 6:54:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.

1) Assumption with no basis.

There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.

2) Assumes teacher taught for no pay from you.

Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.

3) What one person?

Somebody invested in roads and bridges.

4) What one person?

If you've got a business, you didn't build that.

5) Who built it?

Somebody else made that happen.

6) Again, which mystical singular being is this?

The Internet didn't get invented on its own.

7) Startling revelation that people invent things and ways of using things and not the inventions themselves?

Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

8) The only reason for any Government involvement in business is for votes, tax revenue, or campaign donations. Big revelations? I don't think so.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 7:05:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 5:40:28 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
That's not a remark, that's about ten remarks, several of which (any that use "we" as an agent) are incoherent.

"We" is coherent, it just isn't specific and can refer to different people each time it's used.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 7:09:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 6:54:45 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.

1) Assumption with no basis.

There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.

2) Assumes teacher taught for no pay from you.

Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.

3) What one person?

Somebody invested in roads and bridges.

4) What one person?

If you've got a business, you didn't build that.

5) Who built it?

Somebody else made that happen.

6) Again, which mystical singular being is this?

The Internet didn't get invented on its own.

7) Startling revelation that people invent things and ways of using things and not the inventions themselves?

Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

8) The only reason for any Government involvement in business is for votes, tax revenue, or campaign donations. Big revelations? I don't think so.

All governments are bad governments, and all businesses are good businesses?

Ie: If administrations are corrupt by nature, and are distortingly propping up parts of the private sector, then some companies are receiving the illicit largesse.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,291
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 7:38:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
All governments are bad governments, and all businesses are good businesses?

Ie: If administrations are corrupt by nature, and are distortingly propping up parts of the private sector, then some companies are receiving the illicit largesse.

No Government is an Altruistic being to be worshipped at the altar. Wake up.
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/18/2012 8:37:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 7:38:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
All governments are bad governments, and all businesses are good businesses?

Ie: If administrations are corrupt by nature, and are distortingly propping up parts of the private sector, then some companies are receiving the illicit largesse.

No Government is an Altruistic being to be worshipped at the altar. Wake up.

I like this quote better:

I did not discover the Internet. [I] just used it — to make billions. There is no such thing as a self-made man. Every businessman has used the vast American infrastructure, which the taxpayers paid for, to make his money. He did not make his money alone. He used taxpayer infrastructure. He got rich on what other taxpayers had paid for: the banking system, the Federal Reserve, the Treasury and Commerce Departments, and the judicial system, where 9/10ths of cases involve corporate law. These taxpayer investments support companies and wealthy investors. There are no self-made men! The wealthy have gotten rich using what previous taxpayers have paid for. They owe taxpayers of this country a great deal and should be paying it back."

- Bill Gates

Ultimately though, taxes are useful. In many ways.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan