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thett3
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7/18/2012 6:52:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
One of the many reasons I'm in favor of civilians carrying fire arms.
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: thett was right
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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7/18/2012 7:24:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 6:52:16 PM, thett3 wrote:


One of the many reasons I'm in favor of civilians carrying fire arms.

Same. Gun rights ftw. "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - attributed incorrectly to Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. Still, I like the point. An armed population serves as a check against government tyranny of all sorts. Why else would all totalitarian dictators be in favor of gun control? As Heinrich Himmler has been paraphrased as saying, "Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA — ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."
Contra
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7/18/2012 8:09:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I actually am in favor of gun rights and conceal carry (16k convinced me), but I do think that there could be some regulations in place, like no guns in schools, a mandatory training course before getting a gun, keeping the gun stored when not using it, and banning "cop-killer" bullets.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/18/2012 8:11:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:09:43 PM, Contra wrote:
I actually am in favor of gun rights and conceal carry (16k convinced me), but I do think that there could be some regulations in place, like no guns in schools, a mandatory training course before getting a gun, keeping the gun stored when not using it, and banning "cop-killer" bullets.

This, as well as no plastic guns.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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7/18/2012 8:23:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:09:43 PM, Contra wrote:
I actually am in favor of gun rights and conceal carry (16k convinced me), but I do think that there could be some regulations in place, like no guns in schools, a mandatory training course before getting a gun, keeping the gun stored when not using it, and banning "cop-killer" bullets.

Banning guns on school grounds only ensures that the students and teachers will be unarmed if someone decides to go on a shooting spree on school grounds.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/18/2012 8:25:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:23:49 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:09:43 PM, Contra wrote:
I actually am in favor of gun rights and conceal carry (16k convinced me), but I do think that there could be some regulations in place, like no guns in schools, a mandatory training course before getting a gun, keeping the gun stored when not using it, and banning "cop-killer" bullets.

Banning guns on school grounds only ensures that the students and teachers will be unarmed if someone decides to go on a shooting spree on school grounds.

You're also forgetting the possible misuse, especially in the hands of teenage students.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
MrBrooks
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7/18/2012 8:29:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

Teachers and college students should be allowed to carry guns on school grounds. I was more referring to college students, since only seven states in the U.S allow concealed carry on campus.
Contra
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7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/18/2012 8:39:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

Lol if only right.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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7/18/2012 8:42:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

Threatening children with death by gunshot is an invaluable means of instilling discipline among the youth. Fvcking progressives trying to teach me how to raise mah kids.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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7/18/2012 8:54:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

I think I'd prefer it if the weapons were just used for self-defense, thank you.
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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7/18/2012 8:58:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:54:54 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

I think I'd prefer it if the weapons were just used for self-defense, thank you.

Lol. I was kidding. I by no means advocate for letting a teacher use a gun for discipline. What I implied was that a teacher/ armed guard would ensure a more peaceful and secure environment from violence, thus contributing to additional discipline.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/18/2012 9:00:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
100%- Safe

90%- Wound to the one foot

85%- Wound to both feet

75%- Wound to the femoral artery

65%- Wound to pelvic area

55%- Wound to gut

<50%- Wound to brain.

Real discipline ^
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/18/2012 9:07:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:00:10 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
100%- Safe

90%- Wound to the one foot

85%- Wound to both feet

75%- Wound to the femoral artery

65%- Wound to pelvic area

55%- Wound to gut

<50%- Wound to brain.

Real discipline ^

at that point its not like the brain is useful anyways.
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Contra
Posts: 3,941
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7/18/2012 9:08:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:42:06 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

Threatening children with death by gunshot is an invaluable means of instilling discipline among the youth. Fvcking progressives trying to teach me how to raise mah kids.

I was kidding. Armed guards for security, but using guns for discipline? Heck no. Security, but allow a nurturing educational environment.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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7/18/2012 9:09:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:08:20 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:42:06 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

Threatening children with death by gunshot is an invaluable means of instilling discipline among the youth. Fvcking progressives trying to teach me how to raise mah kids.

I was kidding. Armed guards for security, but using guns for discipline? Heck no. Security, but allow a nurturing educational environment.

The Joke
------------
Your Head
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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7/18/2012 9:13:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:08:20 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:42:06 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

Threatening children with death by gunshot is an invaluable means of instilling discipline among the youth. Fvcking progressives trying to teach me how to raise mah kids.

I was kidding. Armed guards for security, but using guns for discipline? Heck no. Security, but allow a nurturing educational environment.

Better yet, get rid of the Department of Education and let the states decide if they want to have a public or private school system, or a mixture.
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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7/18/2012 9:16:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:07:54 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 7/18/2012 9:00:10 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
100%- Safe

90%- Wound to the one foot

85%- Wound to both feet

75%- Wound to the femoral artery

65%- Wound to pelvic area

55%- Wound to gut

<50%- Wound to brain.

Real discipline ^

at that point its not like the brain is useful anyways.

^ True.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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7/18/2012 9:18:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:13:13 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
At 7/18/2012 9:08:20 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:42:06 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

Threatening children with death by gunshot is an invaluable means of instilling discipline among the youth. Fvcking progressives trying to teach me how to raise mah kids.

I was kidding. Armed guards for security, but using guns for discipline? Heck no. Security, but allow a nurturing educational environment.

Better yet, get rid of the Department of Education and let the states decide if they want to have a public or private school system, or a mixture.

The DoE provides many benefits to local schools nationwide, such as providing Pell Grants to students, providing funds for special teachers to help disadvantaged kids, providing federal aid to education, etc.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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7/18/2012 9:22:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The DoE provides many benefits to local schools nationwide, such as providing Pell Grants to students, providing funds for special teachers to help disadvantaged kids, providing federal aid to education, etc.

Are you saying that the states wouldn't be able to provide the same benefits and services? Are you saying that the DoE's one size fits all educational policy will lead to the most bang for your tax buck? I seem to remember a statistic where although educational spending has steadily increased and class size has decreased, school performance has decreased.

Furthermore, don't you think a private school system with vouchers would be better? A system where students could pick the schools they wanted to go to, and schools would compete with each other to provide better educational services.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/18/2012 9:23:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:18:44 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 9:13:13 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
At 7/18/2012 9:08:20 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:42:06 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:38:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 8:25:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Unless of course you mean only teachers carrying guns, which I would wholeheartedly support.

I would be okay with teachers having a gun, or having armed security guards, this would help ensure discipline and security. Not that they would use the gun for discipline though.

Threatening children with death by gunshot is an invaluable means of instilling discipline among the youth. Fvcking progressives trying to teach me how to raise mah kids.

I was kidding. Armed guards for security, but using guns for discipline? Heck no. Security, but allow a nurturing educational environment.

Better yet, get rid of the Department of Education and let the states decide if they want to have a public or private school system, or a mixture.

The DoE provides many benefits to local schools nationwide, such as providing Pell Grants to students, providing funds for special teachers to help disadvantaged kids, providing federal aid to education, etc.

Substitute "federal" for "state" and all those things can be done just as effectively (probably more effectively) by individual States themselves, with emphasis on specific educational and societal environments.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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7/18/2012 9:29:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:22:22 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
The DoE provides many benefits to local schools nationwide, such as providing Pell Grants to students, providing funds for special teachers to help disadvantaged kids, providing federal aid to education, etc.

Are you saying that the states wouldn't be able to provide the same benefits and services? Are you saying that the DoE's one size fits all educational policy will lead to the most bang for your tax buck? I seem to remember a statistic where although educational spending has steadily increased and class size has decreased, school performance has decreased.

The right educational policy would be to give more funds to local officials, but increase their flexibility to spend their money where they want, with increased accountability. These are principles that have been found to help improve education.

Furthermore, don't you think a private school system with vouchers would be better? A system where students could pick the schools they wanted to go to, and schools would compete with each other to provide better educational services.

I could support a school voucher system, as long as public schools get a fair shot in competition. And the problem of "creamskinning" is dealt with, so all schools get a fair shake.

The DoE is the only force though to ensure better educational changes. This could happen locally, but with competition between states to lower tax rates, it is not that feasible, at least not with ending the DoE in its entirety. I would be receptive to any evidence though.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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7/18/2012 9:39:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:29:19 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 9:22:22 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
The DoE provides many benefits to local schools nationwide, such as providing Pell Grants to students, providing funds for special teachers to help disadvantaged kids, providing federal aid to education, etc.

Are you saying that the states wouldn't be able to provide the same benefits and services? Are you saying that the DoE's one size fits all educational policy will lead to the most bang for your tax buck? I seem to remember a statistic where although educational spending has steadily increased and class size has decreased, school performance has decreased.

The right educational policy would be to give more funds to local officials, but increase their flexibility to spend their money where they want, with increased accountability. These are principles that have been found to help improve education.

Furthermore, don't you think a private school system with vouchers would be better? A system where students could pick the schools they wanted to go to, and schools would compete with each other to provide better educational services.

I could support a school voucher system, as long as public schools get a fair shot in competition. And the problem of "creamskinning" is dealt with, so all schools get a fair shake.

The DoE is the only force though to ensure better educational changes. This could happen locally, but with competition between states to lower tax rates, it is not that feasible, at least not with ending the DoE in its entirety. I would be receptive to any evidence though.

What the hell is a fair shake and a fair shot? Ever since Obama started saying that to sound like he's in touch, liberals have been saying it every chance they get.

Anyway, do you think the right policy is going to be found in a centralized system, or a decentralized system? Wouldn't disbanding the DoE and letting states determine what programs and policies are best for them lead to better educational policies where it counts?

As for the private school system, I don't think the idea would be to have public schools compete with them. I think public schools wouldn't only be built to fill in the gaps left by private schools, if there are any. For example: public schools might be built in remote areas, or there may be public schools for children that are too violent, etc etc.
Contra
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7/18/2012 9:51:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:39:13 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
At 7/18/2012 9:29:19 PM, Contra wrote:
At 7/18/2012 9:22:22 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
The DoE provides many benefits to local schools nationwide, such as providing Pell Grants to students, providing funds for special teachers to help disadvantaged kids, providing federal aid to education, etc.

Are you saying that the states wouldn't be able to provide the same benefits and services? Are you saying that the DoE's one size fits all educational policy will lead to the most bang for your tax buck? I seem to remember a statistic where although educational spending has steadily increased and class size has decreased, school performance has decreased.

The right educational policy would be to give more funds to local officials, but increase their flexibility to spend their money where they want, with increased accountability. These are principles that have been found to help improve education.

Furthermore, don't you think a private school system with vouchers would be better? A system where students could pick the schools they wanted to go to, and schools would compete with each other to provide better educational services.

I could support a school voucher system, as long as public schools get a fair shot in competition. And the problem of "creamskinning" is dealt with, so all schools get a fair shake.

The DoE is the only force though to ensure better educational changes. This could happen locally, but with competition between states to lower tax rates, it is not that feasible, at least not with ending the DoE in its entirety. I would be receptive to any evidence though.

What the hell is a fair shake and a fair shot? Ever since Obama started saying that to sound like he's in touch, liberals have been saying it every chance they get.

It means a better chance, a greater opportunity. For example, "All Americans deserve a fair shot at the American Dream" is the same as saying, "All Americans should have equal access to opportunity so they can pursue their dreams." Ultimately, it is a Progressive value, to give equality of opportunity to all citizens.

Anyway, do you think the right policy is going to be found in a centralized system, or a decentralized system? Wouldn't disbanding the DoE and letting states determine what programs and policies are best for them lead to better educational policies where it counts?

Still, where would poorer states, say Mississippi get that money? And don't say lower taxes, because the additional revenue would be used optimally for deficit reduction.

As for the private school system, I don't think the idea would be to have public schools compete with them. I think public schools wouldn't only be built to fill in the gaps left by private schools, if there are any. For example: public schools might be built in remote areas, or there may be public schools for children that are too violent, etc etc.

Many private schools engage in "creamskinning" so that kids who have disabilities and such or are not at a certain wealth level are not allowed in the school. I strongly support charter schools, because these do not engage in such a disgusting practice.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
MrBrooks
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7/18/2012 9:59:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I imagine that in a private school system, schools would appear that would cater to parents with children that have special needs. If there is a demand for it, the market will provide it.

Like I said before, each state will get to decide what is the best educational policy for them. Perhaps a state will less people will go with the private school system, or perhaps they'll do a mixture of public and private schools. Let's also not forget that huge states like California are broke, and states with smaller populations, like New Mexico, are doing much better. Population size, density, and size of the state has little to do with having a sound fiscal policy; a sound fiscal policy will pay for an educational system.

Also I take issue with you saying that equality is a progressive value; I think the value you're thinking of is social justice. Libertarians and Conservatives believe in equality and giving people the same opportunities as well, we just believe that having the government pick winners and losers and subsidizing entire segments of the populace is the wrong way of going about doing that.
16kadams
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7/18/2012 10:19:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 8:09:43 PM, Contra wrote:
I actually am in favor of gun rights and conceal carry (16k convinced me), but I do think that there could be some regulations in place, like no guns in schools, a mandatory training course before getting a gun, keeping the gun stored when not using it, and banning "cop-killer" bullets.

Yes! Now need to convince you in those other misleading opinions
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Contra
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7/18/2012 10:56:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/18/2012 9:59:30 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
I imagine that in a private school system, schools would appear that would cater to parents with children that have special needs. If there is a demand for it, the market will provide it.

It is likely though that a public school would have to do this, as special needs students wouldn't be consolidated in one geographic location.

Like I said before, each state will get to decide what is the best educational policy for them. Perhaps a state will less people will go with the private school system, or perhaps they'll do a mixture of public and private schools. Let's also not forget that huge states like California are broke, and states with smaller populations, like New Mexico, are doing much better. Population size, density, and size of the state has little to do with having a sound fiscal policy; a sound fiscal policy will pay for an educational system.

I see your point. I do support school vouchers, and the mix of public/private schools like you have described, but other things, like making sure all teachers have a Master's Degree, and Obama's loan program (which I strongly support) are all sounding like all good ideas. But still, how would poor states afford a good educational system, states like Mississippi?

Also I take issue with you saying that equality is a progressive value; I think the value you're thinking of is social justice. Libertarians and Conservatives believe in equality and giving people the same opportunities as well, we just believe that having the government pick winners and losers and subsidizing entire segments of the populace is the wrong way of going about doing that.

Progressives, like Conservatives and Libertarians, etc, have values. Our values are primarily freedom, fairness, responsibility, opportunity, and trust. Likewise, our policy proposals are derived from these values and our worldview.

I don't see how conservatives can say they are for equality though. If the market truly provided equality of opportunity, why do the racial backgrounds of say doctors have a large gap (say between Asian Americans and African Americans)? It is because Asians more often have better backgrounds. They generally start in better homes and schools. However, the starting line is not equal. Thus, progressives believe that we need to level the playing field for people, giving them greater equality of opportunity, via social programs and other initiatives such as improving education. In fact, one's background is more of a predictor than how one does in school. It's true. And it is how Europe has greater economic mobility than we do.

With a more unequal society, the rungs of the economic ladder are harder to climb. This correlates very well with income inequality. Thus, a more progressive income tax, instead of making the wealthy keep even more, would improve opportunity.

http://www.nytimes.com...

If we improve K12 education along the lines we have discussed though, have a tax credits for businesses that invest in human capital, and continue through with Obama's new student loan program and streamline this process, and introduce greater job retraining programs, I believe that all Americans would have equal opportunity to pursue their dreams.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
MrBrooks
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7/18/2012 11:14:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'll start by saying that I do not take anything the NYTimes writes seriously. I will also say that anyone can manipulate statistics to support any point they want. I'll also add that what you just described is social justice.

If you want to see a prime example of social justice in full swing, take a look at the Indian reservations. American Indians are basically wards of the state and they receive some of the most generous social benefits in the world, but they are dirt poor and have staggering unemployment rates. They are a prime example of why social justice does not work.

Still not convinced? Well let's take a look at minimum wage, which is meant to help the poor. Minimum wage basically excludes many high school aged workers and young workers with no experience form the work force. Minimum wage is one of the direct causes of such high black unemployment, and those unemployed blacks end up turning to crime and drugs as a substitute for work.

Let's take a look at welfare too. Ever since we launched our War of Poverty, poverty has gone up! All of those generous welfare programs seem to accomplish nothing except keep people on welfare. Can you blame them? Why should they go to work when the state is basically paying for all of their needs?

Social justice does not work, it has never worked. It always leads to greater government control over our everyday lives and it always hurts the poor. Furthermore, it is not affordable. You mention how great Europe is, but Europe's is going bankrupt now because they cannot afford their welfare states.

You mentioned tax credits too, which I will also address. Tax credits accomplish one thing and one thing only: they allow the rich to exploit the system. Tax credits only benefit those who know how to work the system, and those who have the money to work the system. I laugh when I hear about tax credits for installing solar panels, because who the hell can afford to install solar panels in their home? Answer: the rich, or at least the upper middle class.

The best thing you can do for the poor is to keep the tax code simple, and forgo the tax credits.

Back to the educational system though; is it so much to ask for people to participate in their local governments? If your legislature is mismanaging your money to the point where you can't afford a state level educational system, well it's time to either run for office yourself or at the very least vote them out of office. This is another advantage of running everything of importance at the state level; it is so much easier to change the system at the local level than it is at the federal level.
MrBrooks
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7/18/2012 11:32:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry to double post, but I forgot to add this. The main issue I have with the liberal world view is that it assumes that a utopia can be achieved. Utopia cannot be achieved, it is impossible. No matter what you, not everyone is going to be born with the same advantages. Most political world views realize this, but not liberals.

No, liberals think that if there is inequality in the world, that it is the government's duty to fix it. What they don't realize is that you can't get two full glasses of water from a full glass and an empty glass; meaning you can't make something out of nothing, and in the real world making two groups equal means chopping one group down to put it on the same level as another.

Libertarians and Conservatives realize that the world isn't fair, they realize that not everyone is going to start on an equal playing field. However, they know that the best thing you can do for the poor is to make it so that they can become rich. A free market society, with limited interference from the government, puts no limit on how high a poor person can rise and how low a rich person can fall. It isn't perfect, because the world isn't perfect, but it is a damn good system that has proved itself time and time again.