Total Posts:17|Showing Posts:1-17
Jump to topic:

The US Prison System

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 1:17:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
About 310.64 million people live in the United States. About 2.3 million of those people are living inside a prison in the United States. That's more than 6 times the population of Iceland. It's larger than almost half of all other countries. The entire prison population in the US would make an average sized country. Americans make up about 5% of the world's population. Americans make up 23% of the world's inmates. We incarcerate more people than any other country in the world. Quite a bit more than the second most, Russia. Much more than China, the highest populated country in the world which is also known for acting in authoritarian ways.

7.2 million Americans are either in prison, on probation or on parole. That means about 1 in every 32 Americans are held by the US justice system. Around 3% of Americans will do time at one point or another.

Almost half of all state prisoners are doing time for victimless crimes and over 9 OUT OF 10 of federal prisoners are doing time for victimless crimes. Victimless crimes, namely, being drug offenses.

The US prison population grows faster than the population of the country as a whole.

The US incarcerates more minorities as a percentage of it's prison population than any country in the world. 3 OUT OF EVERY 4 black males in the US do time in prison.

Besides it's elevated rate of incarceration, the US also has dramatically longer sentences than the rest of the world. Many first time drug offenses may get you between 5 AND 10 YEARS in the US, compared with around 6 months in most of the world.

Once released, they will forever have problems with job opportunities. The unemployment rate of released prisons is often between rates 40% to 60%. Within three years of being released, over 2 in 3 of prisoners will become re-offenders.

The United State's budget for maintaining this monolithic system is about $60 Billion per year.

Land of the free. Home of the brave.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 1:37:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 1:29:33 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Changing the laws isn't enough. We need to let these people go.

Did Ron Paul go back on his promise to pardon all people currently in jail for victimless crimes?

On a related note it's funny that I see this thread while watching Oz.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 4:43:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 1:37:08 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 7/22/2012 1:29:33 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Changing the laws isn't enough. We need to let these people go.

Did Ron Paul go back on his promise to pardon all people currently in jail for victimless crimes?

On a related note it's funny that I see this thread while watching Oz.

That's not the right phrasing.

Does Ron Paul still plan to pardon all people in prison for victimless crimes/non-violent drug offenses?
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 4:56:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 1:20:07 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Stop penalizing victimless crimes.

This, and the three-strikes laws.

At 7/22/2012 4:43:52 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 7/22/2012 1:37:08 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 7/22/2012 1:29:33 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Changing the laws isn't enough. We need to let these people go.

Did Ron Paul go back on his promise to pardon all people currently in jail for victimless crimes?

On a related note it's funny that I see this thread while watching Oz.

That's not the right phrasing.

Does Ron Paul still plan to pardon all people in prison for victimless crimes/non-violent drug offenses?

Even if elected, I'm not sure that Ron Paul could do that given the political constraints.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 11:08:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 4:56:17 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 7/22/2012 1:20:07 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Stop penalizing victimless crimes.

This, and the three-strikes laws.

Three strike laws lower crime therefore lowering prison population
http://www.lao.ca.gov...


At 7/22/2012 4:43:52 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 7/22/2012 1:37:08 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 7/22/2012 1:29:33 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Changing the laws isn't enough. We need to let these people go.

Did Ron Paul go back on his promise to pardon all people currently in jail for victimless crimes?

On a related note it's funny that I see this thread while watching Oz.

That's not the right phrasing.

Does Ron Paul still plan to pardon all people in prison for victimless crimes/non-violent drug offenses?

Even if elected, I'm not sure that Ron Paul could do that given the political constraints.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 12:20:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 1:17:01 AM, FREEDO wrote:
About 310.64 million people live in the United States. About 2.3 million of those people are living inside a prison in the United States. That's more than 6 times the population of Iceland. It's larger than almost half of all other countries. The entire prison population in the US would make an average sized country.

That's because we have such a large population. Look at the top 5 countries.

1.) US = 2,019,234 prisoners
2.) China = 1,549,000 prisoners
3.) Russia = 846,967 prisoners
4.) India = 313,635 prisoners
5.) Brazil = 308,304 prisoners
http://www.nationmaster.com...
China also has the most executions; they have 11 times more executions than the US.

Americans make up about 5% of the world's population. Americans make up 23% of the world's inmates.

You need to take into consideration environmental factors. Also you need to take into consideration the nature of those crimes. Most NH inmates have drug related charges, with very few being violent offenders. Each state within the US is different. More populated states, such as California may have high crime rates due to gang violence, or cartel related incidents.

One thing that really pisses me off, is when people use Federal crime statistics, when most laws as well as the enforcement of the law are both state issues.

If you are going to use Federal crime statistics you may as well use EU crime statistics for Europe. The variation among states throws off the statistic. One state does bad, than we all look worse; it's BS.

We incarcerate more people than any other country in the world. Quite a bit more than the second most, Russia. Much more than China, the highest populated country in the world which is also known for acting in authoritarian ways.

china is second most.
7.2 million Americans are either in prison, on probation or on parole. That means about 1 in every 32 Americans are held by the US justice system. Around 3% of Americans will do time at one point or another.

That statistic is a bit high.
Almost half of all state prisoners are doing time for victimless crimes and over 9 OUT OF 10 of federal prisoners are doing time for victimless crimes. Victimless crimes, namely, being drug offenses.

Drug offenses are not victimless, however Prohibition is unconstitutional. The Federal government can outlaw the importation/exportation of drugs, but not the use or sale of drugs within any given state.
The US prison population grows faster than the population of the country as a whole.

The US incarcerates more minorities as a percentage of it's prison population than any country in the world. 3 OUT OF EVERY 4 black males in the US do time in prison.

Besides it's elevated rate of incarceration, the US also has dramatically longer sentences than the rest of the world. Many first time drug offenses may get you between 5 AND 10 YEARS in the US, compared with around 6 months in most of the world.

The amount of drugs in one's possession determines the severity of the sentencing. Each state is different. Florida confiscates the property where drugs were found (such as a car or house). Other states give you a slap on the wrist.

Once released, they will forever have problems with job opportunities. The unemployment rate of released prisons is often between rates 40% to 60%. Within three years of being released, over 2 in 3 of prisoners will become re-offenders.

Prison is meant to rehabilitate. We have turned away from the notion of rehabilitation towards the notion of punishment.

The United State's budget for maintaining this monolithic system is about $60 Billion per year.

Land of the free. Home of the brave.

You can't be denied liberty without due process of law. They were convicted of a crime. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?
Sapere Aude!
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 12:29:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?

Ok we stop charging people of those crimes. - 700 inmates. Rest are arrested for drugs AND other offenses too. Population not solved.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 12:31:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:29:06 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?

Ok we stop charging people of those crimes. - 700 inmates. Rest are arrested for drugs AND other offenses too. Population not solved.
False:
http://mobile.alternet.org...

Smoking pot shouldn't be a crime. Driving while smoking pot should. The precedence is set with alcohol right now.
Sapere Aude!
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 12:32:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?

Because it is a black market product, the sale of that product helps fund other crimes, possibly violent crimes.
Furthermore, possession with intent to use may hurt people around the user. I've been stuck in the car with a bunch of pot heads, who were attempting to use. I was a victim in that crime, because I did not want the second hand.
Possession with the intent to sell, causes others to become addicted, or fuels others addiction.

Again, I don't believe in prohibition; it causes more problems than it fixes.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 12:37:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:32:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?

Because it is a black market product, the sale of that product helps fund other crimes, possibly violent crimes.

Does that mean that if I bought something from Enron, I would have to get charged because I "helped fund other crimes." This is really a slippery slope. Unless you are consciously funding the crime, being arrested for it makes zero sense.

Furthermore, possession with intent to use may hurt people around the user. I've been stuck in the car with a bunch of pot heads, who were attempting to use. I was a victim in that crime, because I did not want the second hand.

If it's your car, you have the full right to kick them out. If it's their car, they have the full right to do whatever they want (property rights, bud?).

Possession with the intent to sell, causes others to become addicted, or fuels others addiction.

The trade is no way coercive; it is completely voluntary from both parties. As long as those criteria are met, any person who actually supports capitalism would allow it.

Again, I don't believe in prohibition; it causes more problems than it fixes.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 12:41:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:32:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?

Because it is a black market product, the sale of that product helps fund other crimes, possibly violent crimes.
1) possesion does not mean sale
2) by that logic, having a job as receptionist should be illegal because the money from that could fund other crimes
Furthermore, possession with intent to use may hurt people around the user. I've been stuck in the car with a bunch of pot heads, who were attempting to use. I was a victim in that crime, because I did not want the second hand.
BWAHAHA! Get out of the car. You consented to getting into the car. And being near smoke doesn't make you the victim of any crime. A smoker walked past me the other day...cops did nothing.
Possession with the intent to sell, causes others to become addicted, or fuels others addiction.

Again, I don't believe in prohibition; it causes more problems than it fixes.

Then why aren't you for drug legalization? You can't be against prohibition and for the insane drug restrictions.
Sapere Aude!
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 3:34:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:41:25 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:32:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?

Because it is a black market product, the sale of that product helps fund other crimes, possibly violent crimes.
1) possesion does not mean sale
possession means a sale took pace at some point.
2) by that logic, having a job as receptionist should be illegal because the money from that could fund other crimes
A.) I never said it should be a crime, I said it's not victimless. In fact I clearly said I was against prohibition.
B.) Please explain how you got from point a to point b.
Furthermore, possession with intent to use may hurt people around the user. I've been stuck in the car with a bunch of pot heads, who were attempting to use. I was a victim in that crime, because I did not want the second hand.
BWAHAHA! Get out of the car.
And what? Walk 20 miles back to my house. Also she pulled off onto some weird road, and I had no idea where we were.
You consented to getting into the car.
I did not know there was drugs in the car at the time. That is like saying the passengers of flight 11 consented to getting on the plane. Just because they consenting to getting on a plane, does not mean they consented to crashing the plane into the world trade center.
And being near smoke doesn't make you the victim of any crime. A smoker walked past me the other day...cops did nothing.
If the smoke is a drug, and you are in a confined space, than you are being forced to breath in a drug; hence you are being intoxicated against your will.
Once again, I don't think it should be illegal, but I also don't think it's victimless.
Possession with the intent to sell, causes others to become addicted, or fuels others addiction.

Again, I don't believe in prohibition; it causes more problems than it fixes.

Then why aren't you for drug legalization?
I am for drug legalization you complete moron! That's what have I been saying this whole time! Drugs should be legalized, because prohibition creates more problems than it fixes, and it does not prevent the prohibited item from being sold or used.

You are really slow, you know that.

Just because it's not a victimless crime, does not mean it is justified to criminalize it in the first place. Driving uninsured is not victimless, but I don't think the state should force people to buy insurance.

You can't be against prohibition and for the insane drug restrictions.

That's why I'm not for prohibition of drugs. I bet your brain is short circuiting right now; trying to comprehend a teetotaler who is against prohibition.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 3:41:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:37:49 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:32:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?

Because it is a black market product, the sale of that product helps fund other crimes, possibly violent crimes.

Does that mean that if I bought something from Enron, I would have to get charged because I "helped fund other crimes." This is really a slippery slope. Unless you are consciously funding the crime, being arrested for it makes zero sense.

Furthermore, possession with intent to use may hurt people around the user. I've been stuck in the car with a bunch of pot heads, who were attempting to use. I was a victim in that crime, because I did not want the second hand.

If it's your car, you have the full right to kick them out. If it's their car, they have the full right to do whatever they want (property rights, bud?).

Possession with the intent to sell, causes others to become addicted, or fuels others addiction.

Once again, this is not about whether it should be a crime, but rather whether it is a victimless crime. Should it be a crime? Hell no!!!... Is it a victimless crime? Once again, Hell No!!!...
The trade is no way coercive; it is completely voluntary from both parties. As long as those criteria are met, any person who actually supports capitalism would allow it.

If someone is addicted to a drug, selling them more is feeding that addiction. Also selling drugs to kids who where pressured by their peers, makes you an accessory to the peer pressure.
You honestly think a junkie can voluntarily quit? No, they need to have their supply cut off. An addiction means that one is mentally unable to quit.
Again, I don't believe in prohibition; it causes more problems than it fixes.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2012 3:43:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:31:45 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:29:06 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:26:55 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Seriously Dan? Drug offenses aren't victimless? Who exactly is the victim when someone is charged with illegal possesion if marijuana?

Ok we stop charging people of those crimes. - 700 inmates. Rest are arrested for drugs AND other offenses too. Population not solved.
False:
http://mobile.alternet.org...

Smoking pot shouldn't be a crime. Driving while smoking pot should. The precedence is set with alcohol right now.

legalizing the substance allows us to control it. Making the substance illegal makes it impossible to control. The term "controlled substance" is an oxymoron, because you can't control products in the black market.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle