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More Freedoian Politics.

FREEDO
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7/22/2012 6:07:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Two things: An explanation of my political mindset and then another specific idea I propose.

The topic of today's thread is just another shroud for talking about myself. I'm so awesome. (btw, I love putting things in parentheses when writing articles because I have ADHD {although, if you met me, you'd see I'm the calmest ADHD person ever [whoa, inception parentheses] }. You can read over them if you want.) Anyway.

People tend to be highly confused about my political views. Generally, confusing people is something I enjoy to do. Most of you are not even aware of the degree to which I actually do it. But as of the moment, I feel I'm in the mood to clarify things (or so I would have you believe).

I don't have any principles by which I intentionally abide by or intentionally believe in. My actions are based on a combination of context, mood and my intensely chaotic thought process(due mostly to my connectedness with my subconscious that I have devloped through my method of years of intense meditation). I find it silly when people judge me based on my political statements since I don't actually believe anything I say.

However, I am someone who has an insatiable love of ideas and playing around with them. Two things; creativity and passion: they are what shape my life and, more importantly, perception of self. It's quite funny; one day I will fall completely in love with the idea of Libertarianism and Capitalism, while literally the next day I fall just as much in love with the idea of Communist revolution (That last one I've acquired recently due mostly to watching the new Batman movie, as I identify deeply with the character Bane. I may make another thread indicating why I nearly always identify with villains more than heroes).

Most political ideas I play around with are ones I come up with myself, as you've probably noticed. The one political idea I play around with most, have the deepest feeling of connectedness with and generally end up having my thought process go towards by default is what I call "Impassioned Apatheticism". IA is the idea that is like, yet opposed, to conventional apatheticism. It says that politics doesn't matter, yet for actual reasoning rather than simply not caring. It says that the political system which rules doesn't really matter because the average level of pleasure and displeasure in the world will always generally remain the same (I have a thread on it somewhere). This is due partly to the fact that a culture of people, once having progressed on things that displeased them, will always find something new to be displeased about. Africans worry about what to eat; Americans worry about their things and responsibilities. It is also due partly to chaos theory. Chaos theory suggests that, even if most individual humans are entirely predictable (which they are), the collective consequences of large groups of people are entirely unpredictable due small anomalies arising that have far reaching consequences. This makes economic theories essentially useless (as has been well demonstrated throughout history).

It is important to note that IA is not a principle and should never be taken as one. It does not suggest that there is some inherent balance in the universe that always keeps pleasure and displeasure the same. It makes an observation, based on facts and theories, that this seems to be practically true. It also does not apply to the effect individual actions, but only all actions as a whole.

However, IA is not what this thread is about. What this thread is about is my idea (how original it is, I have no idea) that there is no inherent functional difference between Capitalism and Socialism and that this is so for reasons separate from IA. The idea is that the actual difference lies between centralization and decentralization.

It has occurred to me that centralized capitalism and centralized socialism are absolutely identical, apart from labels. Although, there is some difference between decentralized capitalism and decentralized socialism. A CC economy is one run by a small group of business-people. A CS economy is one run by a small group of bureaucrats. There are no functional differences between the two. They both have the consequences of, firstly, being unfair and, secondly, causing economic instability and volatility (rising and dropping dramatically in unpredictable ways). An economy which is entirely DC would be one in which every person is either a business-person or is self-employed and there is no market domination. An economy which is entirely DS is one where the economy is run through direct-democracy. In both DC and DS economies, everyone holds equal economic power without necessarily implying equal wealth.

Of these four systems, the one I am particularly interested in at the moment is DC.

So here is my proposal:
Imagine that a new party took power in your country.
This party has an entirely libertarian effect on the federal government, in favor of states rights, all except for a few key issues which are there to induce a DC economy.
These are the exceptions.
Immediately splitting all businesses in the upper 50% in half.
Giving one $10,000 grant to all people who don't own a business to start a business.
Establishing a massive automation plan, automating industry and getting people out of unskilled labor jobs.
Establishing free universal (though not compulsory) higher education, to send people into skilled jobs.

That's it.

Now. Here is my question. Would you or would you not rather see this party come to power than either the Republican or Democratic parties.

You may also offer your critiques and praises of this idea, as I know you would.

Don't forget to bicker among yourself, get off topic and resort to logical fallacies when necessary to defend your position.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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7/22/2012 6:19:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So you have a total Welterschauung of Pragmatism.

for the tl;dr, FREEDO says "I have no ideology, but really I'm a dogmatic pragmatist."
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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7/22/2012 6:25:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 6:19:10 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
So you have a total Welterschauung of Pragmatism.

for the tl;dr, FREEDO says "I have no ideology, but really I'm a dogmatic pragmatist."

Well, that's not very true either. I only presented two ideas I like here. It's only a coincidence that they're pragmatist. I also enjoy many ideas that would probably be terrible by normal standards. Such as killing off all men who aren't geniuses in a mass genocide.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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7/22/2012 6:52:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 6:07:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Two things: An explanation of my political mindset and then another specific idea I propose.

The topic of today's thread is just another shroud for talking about myself. I'm so awesome. (btw, I love putting things in parentheses when writing articles because I have ADHD {although, if you met me, you'd see I'm the calmest ADHD person ever [whoa, inception parentheses] }. You can read over them if you want.) Anyway.

People tend to be highly confused about my political views. Generally, confusing people is something I enjoy to do. Most of you are not even aware of the degree to which I actually do it. But as of the moment, I feel I'm in the mood to clarify things (or so I would have you believe).

I don't have any principles by which I intentionally abide by or intentionally believe in. My actions are based on a combination of context, mood and my intensely chaotic thought process(due mostly to my connectedness with my subconscious that I have devloped through my method of years of intense meditation). I find it silly when people judge me based on my political statements since I don't actually believe anything I say.

However, I am someone who has an insatiable love of ideas and playing around with them. Two things; creativity and passion: they are what shape my life and, more importantly, perception of self. It's quite funny; one day I will fall completely in love with the idea of Libertarianism and Capitalism, while literally the next day I fall just as much in love with the idea of Communist revolution (That last one I've acquired recently due mostly to watching the new Batman movie, as I identify deeply with the character Bane. I may make another thread indicating why I nearly always identify with villains more than heroes).

I identify with villains as well. Probably the most potent example would be I, Robot. In the end scene, the "good" robot is running down the hallway to stop the "evil" robots. During this scene, the arch-villain reasons with the good robot, telling him how much damage humans have done and makes a decent argument why humans should be stopped. The good robot hears these arguments, with that stupid smile on his face, and pretty much just ignores them without and decent rebuttal and then goes and saves the humans. It is an interesting scene. I notice the good guys in a lot of movies are often on the side of law enforcement, and if it weren't for blatant atrocities by the villains I would want the cops to lose.

Most political ideas I play around with are ones I come up with myself, as you've probably noticed. The one political idea I play around with most, have the deepest feeling of connectedness with and generally end up having my thought process go towards by default is what I call "Impassioned Apatheticism". IA is the idea that is like, yet opposed, to conventional apatheticism. It says that politics doesn't matter, yet for actual reasoning rather than simply not caring. It says that the political system which rules doesn't really matter because the average level of pleasure and displeasure in the world will always generally remain the same (I have a thread on it somewhere). This is due partly to the fact that a culture of people, once having progressed on things that displeased them, will always find something new to be displeased about. Africans worry about what to eat; Americans worry about their things and responsibilities. It is also due partly to chaos theory. Chaos theory suggests that, even if most individual humans are entirely predictable (which they are), the collective consequences of large groups of people are entirely unpredictable due small anomalies arising that have far reaching consequences. This makes economic theories essentially useless (as has been well demonstrated throughout history).

I am totally with you on apatheticism and resistance to economic theory. My father's fiance asked me about Syria tonight at the dinner table. I said "don't know, don't care." There was a time when I would be all up in that subject figuring out what's going on, who's to blame, how's the U.S. involved, etc. But honestly it really doesn't matter. I know why things are happening, I know who's to blame, and actually working out the details is useless and perhaps even counter-productive. Once you learn the patterns, you not only don't need to know the details, you can actually predict how things are going to happen without paying attention. "Same as it ever was." I started reading Plato and stopped after him. He explained almost everything that we bicker about on DDO through his methods and all these issues that we label as "new" are actually ancient. But nobody seems to care, nobody seems to notice, because if they did then what would we have to argue about?

It is important to note that IA is not a principle and should never be taken as one. It does not suggest that there is some inherent balance in the universe that always keeps pleasure and displeasure the same. It makes an observation, based on facts and theories, that this seems to be practically true. It also does not apply to the effect individual actions, but only all actions as a whole.

However, IA is not what this thread is about. What this thread is about is my idea (how original it is, I have no idea) that there is no inherent functional difference between Capitalism and Socialism and that this is so for reasons separate from IA. The idea is that the actual difference lies between centralization and decentralization.

It has occurred to me that centralized capitalism and centralized socialism are absolutely identical, apart from labels. Although, there is some difference between decentralized capitalism and decentralized socialism. A CC economy is one run by a small group of business-people. A CS economy is one run by a small group of bureaucrats. There are no functional differences between the two. They both have the consequences of, firstly, being unfair and, secondly, causing economic instability and volatility (rising and dropping dramatically in unpredictable ways). An economy which is entirely DC would be one in which every person is either a business-person or is self-employed and there is no market domination. An economy which is entirely DS is one where the economy is run through direct-democracy. In both DC and DS economies, everyone holds equal economic power without necessarily implying equal wealth.

Of these four systems, the one I am particularly interested in at the moment is DC.

So here is my proposal:
Imagine that a new party took power in your country.
This party has an entirely libertarian effect on the federal government, in favor of states rights, all except for a few key issues which are there to induce a DC economy.
These are the exceptions.
Immediately splitting all businesses in the upper 50% in half.
Giving one $10,000 grant to all people who don't own a business to start a business.
Establishing a massive automation plan, automating industry and getting people out of unskilled labor jobs.
Establishing free universal (though not compulsory) higher education, to send people into skilled jobs.

That's it.

Now. Here is my question. Would you or would you not rather see this party come to power than either the Republican or Democratic parties.

You may also offer your critiques and praises of this idea, as I know you would.

Don't forget to bicker among yourself, get off topic and resort to logical fallacies when necessary to defend your position.

OK so we split businesses, and then what happens when they grow again? I agree that capitalism and socialism are essentially the same; conflicts of interest in the market demand socialistic band-aids and removing these band-aids only re-exposes the original problem we were trying to fix in the first p
Rob
NixonianVolkswagen
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7/22/2012 6:58:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Any hypothetical, idealized, political party is going to be superior to the Republicans or Democrats.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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7/22/2012 7:00:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
...place.

It's funny, I bring up the uselessness of economics all the time but am repeatedly ignored by the community as being too low-brow to argue with. Economics isn't a science, it is a religion. Arguing with these people about it's appropriateness is akin to arguing with Christians about the appropriateness of God. They are building their lives around these concepts and while they claim they are searching for truth, they are actually searching for the opposite. They want arguments that stay with the box they have made. They attend college to get a career and make money, not to open their minds.
Rob
FREEDO
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7/22/2012 7:04:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 6:52:47 PM, Lasagna wrote:
OK so we split businesses, and then what happens when they grow again?

Hopefully, getting more people into business would prevent that for a long time.
It may also be good to stop all business subsidies besides the ones intended for getting people to start them.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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7/22/2012 7:05:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 6:58:50 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
Any hypothetical, idealized, political party is going to be superior to the Republicans or Democrats.

I'd agree with that simply because it wouldn't be so damn boring.
But why do you say?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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7/22/2012 7:07:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 7:00:29 PM, Lasagna wrote:
...place.

It's funny, I bring up the uselessness of economics all the time but am repeatedly ignored by the community as being too low-brow to argue with. Economics isn't a science, it is a religion. Arguing with these people about it's appropriateness is akin to arguing with Christians about the appropriateness of God. They are building their lives around these concepts and while they claim they are searching for truth, they are actually searching for the opposite. They want arguments that stay with the box they have made. They attend college to get a career and make money, not to open their minds.

Bing-bing. Winner.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/22/2012 11:20:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 7:07:06 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:00:29 PM, Lasagna wrote:
...place.

It's funny, I bring up the uselessness of economics all the time but am repeatedly ignored by the community as being too low-brow to argue with. Economics isn't a science, it is a religion. Arguing with these people about it's appropriateness is akin to arguing with Christians about the appropriateness of God. They are building their lives around these concepts and while they claim they are searching for truth, they are actually searching for the opposite. They want arguments that stay with the box they have made. They attend college to get a career and make money, not to open their minds.

Bing-bing. Winner.

failure to understand the difference between normative and positive economics.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/22/2012 11:29:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here's what economics really is:

If the supply of butter decreases will the cost of margarine increase or decrease?

If a recession occurs in the US how will that effect the exchange between the euro and the dollar?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
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7/22/2012 11:39:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 11:29:53 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Here's what economics really is:

If the supply of butter decreases will the cost of margarine increase or decrease?

If a recession occurs in the US how will that effect the exchange between the euro and the dollar?

Is the difference you're pointing out that economics concerns individual issues and not how to "fix" the economy?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
darkkermit
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7/22/2012 11:43:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 11:39:19 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/22/2012 11:29:53 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Here's what economics really is:

If the supply of butter decreases will the cost of margarine increase or decrease?

If a recession occurs in the US how will that effect the exchange between the euro and the dollar?

Is the difference you're pointing out that economics concerns individual issues and not how to "fix" the economy?

correct. There's also a secondary component on how to "fix" the economy, which is more normative in nature and probably what economist disagree on the most, because of its normative implications. There's also the issue that measuring many of these variables in the real world are a lot more complex then it is in a simple textbook.
Open borders debate:
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/24/2012 9:29:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 6:07:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Establishing a massive automation plan, automating industry and getting people out of unskilled labor jobs.

Automation works best for manufacturing..
but even there it's not Always most efficient.

with my job, which entails many different things from cleaning up a boatyard to prepping boats, moving boats round the place...
Automation would be Crazy expensive.. and, in many cases, require some pretty Particular, Dexterous, adaptable machinery.. while in others require machinery that can operate over a Broad area...
Much cheaper to pay me 15 bucks an hour... specially with how much money it costs to fix stuff and, according to your Proclamations, it sounds like you'd require everyone to get some kind of "fixer" machine too!

People have a broad range of skills and can do fine work too.. Plus, they don't take too much to get to work... Offer enough for food and shelter and (even if they can't speak english) you'll get some pretty nifty machinery.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
FREEDO
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7/24/2012 11:32:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 9:29:31 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/22/2012 6:07:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Establishing a massive automation plan, automating industry and getting people out of unskilled labor jobs.

Automation works best for manufacturing..
but even there it's not Always most efficient.

with my job, which entails many different things from cleaning up a boatyard to prepping boats, moving boats round the place...
Automation would be Crazy expensive.. and, in many cases, require some pretty Particular, Dexterous, adaptable machinery.. while in others require machinery that can operate over a Broad area...
Much cheaper to pay me 15 bucks an hour... specially with how much money it costs to fix stuff and, according to your Proclamations, it sounds like you'd require everyone to get some kind of "fixer" machine too!

People have a broad range of skills and can do fine work too.. Plus, they don't take too much to get to work... Offer enough for food and shelter and (even if they can't speak english) you'll get some pretty nifty machinery.

There doesn't always need to be a fixer machine. That would be a specialized job someone goes to college for.

As for the price of automation. The story of human progress has, in large part, been our ability to expand on upon our tools to manipulate our environment for what we want. And I can confidently say that the majority of jobs today aren't the sort of jobs people dreamed about doing. Which is really more expensive, human progress or wasting your life away doing work you hate?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
mattrodstrom
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7/25/2012 6:36:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 11:32:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There doesn't always need to be a fixer machine. That would be a specialized job someone goes to college for.

not always necessary

As for the price of automation. The story of human progress has, in large part, been our ability to expand on upon our tools to manipulate our environment for what we want. And I can confidently say that the majority of jobs today aren't the sort of jobs people dreamed about doing. Which is really more expensive, human progress or wasting your life away doing work you hate?

Miring people, en large, in paying for machines which may or may not work as needed instead of letting them offer money to People who'll do it cheaper, and sometimes better, doesn't sound like human progress.

Having the Government pay for such a broad-scale, expensive and inefficient, enterprise doesn't sound like it'll end well either..

and then on top of the costs for creating, purchasing and maintaining the broad range of specialized machines every business will need... you've got the costs of providing for all the people you've replaced to boot!

Sounds like a recipe for a government and general, economic, collapse.

I don't particularly like my job.. I'd rather do other things.

But I work with some people who like their jobs. Being outside and working in a more physical way can make the time fly and make you feel good.

Also some jobs don't require College to learn (like carpentry, fiber-glass work, mechanic etc) but can be learned by experience on the job..
And some people are not particularly cut out for a college environment.. or higher level thinking :/
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
LaissezFaire
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7/25/2012 6:45:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Have you ever read Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut? If not, you should. It's basically what happened after your plan was implemented.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Lasagna
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7/26/2012 12:26:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've contemplated "getting people out of unskilled jobs" before, and my first thought was massive automation. However it's clear that this would be rather expensive, and these machines themselves will have to be produced and maintained. Also, I've learned that technology should not be relied on as a fix for anything. If you have ideas that depend on technological progress, you should scrap them, because we can't predict how that progress will occur and most technologies have some sort of drawback. For instance, nuclear power was supposed to create energy that was going to be "too cheap to meter," yet there ended up being so many drawbacks that we haven't built a nuclear plant in decades.

I agree that our crap jobs are just about the worst problem in this country. All our little toys and luxuries are useless if we need to work 40-60 hrs/week in an undesirable atmosphere. We can't raise our kids right if both parents have to work. Career ambitions often replace more fundamental priorities in our lives. Many jobs cause physical ailments (lower-back trauma, carpel tunnel, etc.), and the ones that are "light" are often more acutely damaging than the ones which require heavy activity, like construction. The hierarchy of authority within our jobs serves to enslave us far more than the government can, imposing rules on us that go far beyond what the government could ever employ. The dog-eat-dog atmosphere within our jobs is created by us squirming under these rules, and it lowers our character qualities to below what we normally would be if not suppressed by this environment.

The only real fix is to reduce consumption of unnecessary products. First off, get rid of disposable items. Our products should be exclusively designed for indefinite service once they are produced, to avoid having to produce them again. We should share as many products as possible, most likely using them in small neighborhood groups. Does every house on my house need it's own tool set, lawn-mower, etc.? Third, let's just stop producing all this useless crap! We don't need a great many items that are sold on the market, like sham-wows, pizza-slicers, etc. Let's change our culture to value only what is absolutely necessary, in the interests of creating freedom for our citizens. If we accomplished just these three steps, we could eliminate a whole lot of the work and slavery we are subjected to. Think about all the jobs we work, and how we could eliminate them... working for Verizon Wireless customer service really got me thinking about how utterly useless most our jobs really are!
Rob