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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/22/2012 7:20:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Instead of banning the preservatives themselves, the government should force companies to mention if any of those additives are known carcinogens,...OR known carcinogen producers (such as sodium nitrite/nitrate). All new preservatives should be thoroughly investigated before they're ever used in food, and then classified into 2 categories: the dangerous and the benign. It is not enough to list ingredients on packaging since the chemicals often have esoteric names that are thus unfamiliar and meaningless to laypeople.

Let us do to the commercialized food industry what we did to the tobacco industry....since afterall, their crimes are staggeringly similar. The government FORCE it to be an economic disadvantage to toy with people's wellbeing. This is what governments exist to do.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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7/22/2012 7:28:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

Yet unless the government forces companies to disclose the substances they put into their products, you would never have been able to do that.
Sapere Aude!
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/22/2012 7:32:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 7:28:42 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

Yet unless the government forces companies to disclose the substances they put into their products, you would never have been able to do that.

That's not Ike's point. Ike's point is that the government should force the companies to state outright on the product whether some ingredients are bad for you.

However, I would agree with the government mandating disclosure of ingredients.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/22/2012 7:33:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

The government is OUR creation, WE give it power, and therefore it exists to serve US as a society. The state is our servant and protector. There is a certain limit to what can be reasonably demanded from the average person....exceeding which would result in deception. It is highly unreasonable to expect individuals to inspect every ingredient of everything they eat and buy since that would be a significant disruption of their day-to-day lives. Therefore, it is not enough to list aspartame on a can of soda, but to bold and identify it as a toxic chemical.

You may not realize it, since you were feeling too witty to contain yourself, but your example only fed my point. One day you looked at 1 can of soda, once, and now you don't drink it anymore. Good for you! Now do that for everything that enters your mouth until the day you die. :)
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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7/22/2012 7:34:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 7:32:05 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:28:42 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

Yet unless the government forces companies to disclose the substances they put into their products, you would never have been able to do that.

That's not Ike's point. Ike's point is that the government should force the companies to state outright on the product whether some ingredients are bad for you.
That's entirely reasonable. Companies should disclose to their consumers what they are getting, especially in regards to food/beverage/medicine.

However, I would agree with the government mandating disclosure of ingredients.
Sapere Aude!
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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7/22/2012 8:00:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 7:33:04 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

The government is OUR creation, WE give it power


Err I think its the million man army, combined with the federal brainwashing in public schools that gives the government power, not the people. When you say "our" who are you referring to? No man alive for at least a century agreed to the constitution or took part in writing it
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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7/22/2012 8:06:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
To the OP:

I am not sure that government is the solution to the problem. Ideally, its an issue that would be settled in courts because the using dangerous chemicals in food without telling the people consuming it is an act of coercion. But our society isnt built on the NAP (to say the least), so governmental intervention might be the solution. I'm unsure.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/22/2012 8:06:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 8:00:01 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:33:04 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

The government is OUR creation, WE give it power


Err I think its the million man army, combined with the federal brainwashing in public schools that gives the government power, not the people. When you say "our" who are you referring to? No man alive for at least a century agreed to the constitution or took part in writing it

Our = society. The million man army is merely a subset of society...if the army and police disobey the government, then they're nothing but suited dolts yelling at the wind. You have a very good point with the "brainwashing". They certainly do that to a degree, but I'd say the brainwashing precludes itself in an ironic, paradoxical way. Simply the idea of liberty and fighting for what you believe in, which is heavily taught in schools inspires some minds to question the teaching itself. In the nature of our "brainwashing" we develop a way to resist it. So that provides a sufficient gateway of freethinking to control the government's power.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/22/2012 8:08:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
NAP solves.

Plan is unnecessary.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/22/2012 8:08:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 7:33:04 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

The government is OUR creation, WE give it power, and therefore it exists to serve US as a society. The state is our servant and protector. There is a certain limit to what can be reasonably demanded from the average person....exceeding which would result in deception. It is highly unreasonable to expect individuals to inspect every ingredient of everything they eat and buy since that would be a significant disruption of their day-to-day lives. Therefore, it is not enough to list aspartame on a can of soda, but to bold and identify it as a toxic chemical.

Is/Ought fallacy. On another note, even thought the government is OUR creation, we (in the present sense) don't have the power to "give" it power. The power of the government was created 200 years ago, and as the coercive organization that it is, there is no possible logical way in the present sense that we disrupt its power. Through the massive pro-government propaganda that goes on in the media- on both sides of the aisle- a revolution to de-stage the powers of government is impossible.

Also, even though the government is created to protect us, it doesn't mean that it ought to protect every single harmful aspect of our daily lives; this quickly leads in a slippery slope. You need a sense of objective measurability of where the power of the government should stop and where the power of the individual should begin. Other than, "it's too time consuming" (awful argument is awful), you haven't set any precedence. FYI, it's harmful to drink too much water, does that mean that the government should regulate our water intake? The exact same reasoning for aspartame can be applied here.

You may not realize it, since you were feeling too witty to contain yourself, but your example only fed my point. One day you looked at 1 can of soda, once, and now you don't drink it anymore. Good for you! Now do that for everything that enters your mouth until the day you die. :)

It's my responsibility to take care of my body, not anybody else's.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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7/22/2012 8:13:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 8:06:53 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 8:00:01 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:33:04 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

The government is OUR creation, WE give it power


Err I think its the million man army, combined with the federal brainwashing in public schools that gives the government power, not the people. When you say "our" who are you referring to? No man alive for at least a century agreed to the constitution or took part in writing it

Our = society. The million man army is merely a subset of society...if the army and police disobey the government, then they're nothing but suited dolts yelling at the wind.

Well, I was intentionally ambiguous with the million man army thing. Of course it's a subset of society, but the thing is that its a subset the government can use at its discretion. They likely couldnt set the army off to slaughter american civilians, but they dont want to do that. For all intents and purposes, the government has unlimited power.

You have a very good point with the "brainwashing". They certainly do that to a degree, but I'd say the brainwashing precludes itself in an ironic, paradoxical way. Simply the idea of liberty and fighting for what you believe in, which is heavily taught in schools inspires some minds to question the teaching itself. In the nature of our "brainwashing" we develop a way to resist it. So that provides a sufficient gateway of freethinking to control the government's power.

It's essentially taught at schools that government is completely needed.

Well, that isnt fair to say since I've lived here my whole life, but if they teach that in schools in a deep red state, I can only imagine what goes on elsewhere.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/22/2012 8:16:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 8:13:59 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 8:06:53 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 8:00:01 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:33:04 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

The government is OUR creation, WE give it power


Err I think its the million man army, combined with the federal brainwashing in public schools that gives the government power, not the people. When you say "our" who are you referring to? No man alive for at least a century agreed to the constitution or took part in writing it

Our = society. The million man army is merely a subset of society...if the army and police disobey the government, then they're nothing but suited dolts yelling at the wind.

Well, I was intentionally ambiguous with the million man army thing. Of course it's a subset of society, but the thing is that its a subset the government can use at its discretion. They likely couldnt set the army off to slaughter american civilians, but they dont want to do that. For all intents and purposes, the government has unlimited power.

You have a very good point with the "brainwashing". They certainly do that to a degree, but I'd say the brainwashing precludes itself in an ironic, paradoxical way. Simply the idea of liberty and fighting for what you believe in, which is heavily taught in schools inspires some minds to question the teaching itself. In the nature of our "brainwashing" we develop a way to resist it. So that provides a sufficient gateway of freethinking to control the government's power.

It's essentially taught at schools that government is completely needed.

Well, that isnt fair to say since I've lived here my whole life, but if they teach that in schools in a deep red state, I can only imagine what goes on elsewhere.

Oh no, it's everywhere.

Anarchists are literally dismissed as crazy people, and without government there would be chaos. This has happened in US History.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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7/22/2012 8:20:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 8:16:39 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/22/2012 8:13:59 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 8:06:53 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 8:00:01 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:33:04 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/22/2012 7:24:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why are you assuming that it's the government's job to protect people from ingesting food they buy through voluntary interaction instead of the people themselves?

For example, a few months ago, I decided to google all the ingredients on a can of Sprite. From then on, I have never touched a soft drink. All this was done without the government (heresy.... I know!).

The government is OUR creation, WE give it power


Err I think its the million man army, combined with the federal brainwashing in public schools that gives the government power, not the people. When you say "our" who are you referring to? No man alive for at least a century agreed to the constitution or took part in writing it

Our = society. The million man army is merely a subset of society...if the army and police disobey the government, then they're nothing but suited dolts yelling at the wind.

Well, I was intentionally ambiguous with the million man army thing. Of course it's a subset of society, but the thing is that its a subset the government can use at its discretion. They likely couldnt set the army off to slaughter american civilians, but they dont want to do that. For all intents and purposes, the government has unlimited power.

You have a very good point with the "brainwashing". They certainly do that to a degree, but I'd say the brainwashing precludes itself in an ironic, paradoxical way. Simply the idea of liberty and fighting for what you believe in, which is heavily taught in schools inspires some minds to question the teaching itself. In the nature of our "brainwashing" we develop a way to resist it. So that provides a sufficient gateway of freethinking to control the government's power.

It's essentially taught at schools that government is completely needed.

Well, that isnt fair to say since I've lived here my whole life, but if they teach that in schools in a deep red state, I can only imagine what goes on elsewhere.

Oh no, it's everywhere.

Anarchists are literally dismissed as crazy people, and without government there would be chaos. This has happened in US History.

That is true. The brainwashing runs deep.

I remember once this kid said that without government "everyone would go crazy" (we were having a class discussion on the role of government), and I said "you do realize that governments have killed hundreds of millions of people, right?" and he said "no, people killed people" which is literally true, but anyone who doesnt realize that state brainwashing and coercion forced those deaths is a moron. And the sad thing is, everyone acted like it was a great point when it was one of tthe most idiotic things I've ever heard
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/22/2012 8:21:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 8:16:39 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:

Oh no, it's everywhere.

Anarchists are literally dismissed as crazy people, and without government there would be chaos. This has happened in US History.

Do you really blame them? It's human nature to be closed minded at times....But that changes as the ages wear on. I believe that anarchy will be tested one day.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault