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Atheist group rebukes Obama over prayer

yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.

Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"

How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/25/2012 9:03:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?:

It's a tradition and it's all part of playing politics. I don't like it, and I think it is important to challenge them on the Constitutionality of things like this, but some of these atheist groups are every bit the fundy @ssholes they claim to be against.

There are productive and counterproductive ways of handling it, and throwing a hissy fit is not a great way to get your point across intelligently.

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...:

Hey, you leave Izbo out of it!
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/25/2012 9:04:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.:

Praise Shiva!!!!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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7/25/2012 9:40:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Whilst I'm an avowed secularist, I, like everyone I'd heard of up until this point, am more than happy to make allowances for the President, given that he's a single man acting as the Executive, it's only reasonable to let him speak as he deems fitting. As-long as this isn't conflated into policy, I'm content.

However, it is worth noting that if nontheism continues to grow, and the religious stock diversifies due to immigration/conversion, a less overtly Christian message might be more welcomed in future. I figure this'll take the form of a gradual slide to Christ-centered unitarianism long before anything "radical" though.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm pretty sure we would be, except the Christians would suddenly agree with the atheists.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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7/25/2012 9:40:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Are you saying that atheists have some special vendetta against Christianity? It might seem so to someone in the US, but it only makes sense that in every country the atheists there will be most vocal against whatever the dominant religion is. In any case I assume the group would still be up in arms.
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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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7/25/2012 9:45:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 9:40:32 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
Whilst I'm an avowed secularist, I, like everyone I'd heard of up until this point, am more than happy to make allowances for the President, given that he's a single man acting as the Executive, it's only reasonable to let him speak as he deems fitting. As-long as this isn't conflated into policy, I'm content.

However, it is worth noting that if nontheism continues to grow, and the religious stock diversifies due to immigration/conversion, a less overtly Christian message might be more welcomed in future. I figure this'll take the form of a gradual slide to Christ-centered unitarianism long before anything "radical" though.

Personally, I have problems when someone who is the head of state, meaning representative of their country, someone who has taken it upon themselves to be willingly the figurehead of a laicitéan state, proclaiming it to be a laicitéan state, and promoting laicitéan values, can abandon them all and say these kinds of things. The problem is that Obama - or any political leader - becomes the representative of the state. They must abandon their own personal values and judgements, and changes in such, and do what their manifesto states, whilst following the laws of the country. Obama is elected in a laicitéan country. He promoted laicitéan values. Going back on them is not just hypocritically inconsistent, but a betrayal to those who put him in power: the people.

And no, those last two words were not an invitation for conspiracy theories about reptiles taking over the world.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/25/2012 9:46:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm pretty sure we would be, except the Christians would suddenly agree with the atheists.

In which case we wouldn't be having this discussion, this discussion being about atheists going too far.

But I disagree even on this part. We wouldn't be having this discussion, not because Christians would suddenly agree with the atheists, but because any atheist objection to the comment would be completely drowned out by the Christian objection to the comment. Every Christian, conservative, or right-winger with a name in the business would be railing about the comment non-stop. No one would know that CSH had said anything.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/25/2012 9:47:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 9:40:55 AM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Are you saying that atheists have some special vendetta against Christianity? It might seem so to someone in the US, but it only makes sense that in every country the atheists there will be most vocal against whatever the dominant religion is. In any case I assume the group would still be up in arms.

No. I'm saying that if Obama had made a religious remark that was non-Christian, then the Christians wouldn't care about atheists objecting to it, even if they knew about it; they'd be causing their own rucus about the remark.
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:08:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 9:40:55 AM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Are you saying that atheists have some special vendetta against Christianity? It might seem so to someone in the US, but it only makes sense that in every country the atheists there will be most vocal against whatever the dominant religion is. In any case I assume the group would still be up in arms.

Your right because in America it just happens to be Christianity... They wouldn't think twice about Buddhdism. Your both right
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yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm pretty sure we would be, except the Christians would suddenly agree with the atheists.

I'm pretty sure we wouldn't because they his religion would be a minority and you know minority would get respect form both.
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Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm pretty sure we would be, except the Christians would suddenly agree with the atheists.

I'm pretty sure we wouldn't because they his religion would be a minority and you know minority would get respect form both.

Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.
Sapere Aude!
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)

Militant Atheists are always finding new and creative ways to turn people off from their cause.


Via Beltway Confidential:

"May the Lord bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come," President Obama said at the end of his speech today, referring to the victims of the Batman shooting in Colorado and their families. By doing so, he "ben[t] the rules" against government establishing a religion, according to the Center for Secular Humanism.

"I think it's a little unfortunate," CSH director Tom Flynn told The Washington Examiner. "Even in a situation like this, [when] he leads a public prayer to a deity that it pretty recognizably the Christian God, much as you can understand the emotional context of it, he's still sending to some degree a message of exclusion to other religions who don't call their god "Lord" and to non-religious Americans."

"By the very act of praying, that's a message of exclusion," he continued. "If I'm a public official, I think I'm going to look around in the morning and conclude that, ‘hey, this religion thing is just too hot to handle, I should stay away from it in my official capacity.'"



How did you feel when the POTUS said a prayer and had a moment of silence?

My thoughts is that SOME Atheist take things to far...

Your thoughts??

If he said "May Allah bring them comfort and healing in hard days to come" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm pretty sure we would be, except the Christians would suddenly agree with the atheists.

I'm pretty sure we wouldn't because they his religion would be a minority and you know minority would get respect form both.

Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest
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yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:17:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)



Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest

That brings me to my next point can we call atheist raciest against Christians?
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/25/2012 10:19:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:17:21 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)



Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest

That brings me to my next point can we call atheist raciest against Christians?

You can. Certainly. You'd be wrong and crazy to say it, but you can still say it.
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:25:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:19:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:17:21 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)



Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest

That brings me to my next point can we call atheist raciest against Christians?

You can. Certainly. You'd be wrong and crazy to say it, but you can still say it.

But hear me out, you can call a Christian raciest for being offended with islam and no ones says anything...
I don't agree with Christians that do this, i believe people should embrace their beliefs no matter what they are... just so you know...
but it seems to be ok for others to be irate with Christians for embracing their beliefs . Thats my point that Im getting at.
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/25/2012 10:29:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:25:17 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:19:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:17:21 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)



Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest

That brings me to my next point can we call atheist raciest against Christians?

You can. Certainly. You'd be wrong and crazy to say it, but you can still say it.


But hear me out, you can call a Christian raciest for being offended with islam and no ones says anything...
I don't agree with Christians that do this, i believe people should embrace their beliefs no matter what they are... just so you know...
but it seems to be ok for others to be irate with Christians for embracing their beliefs . Thats my point that Im getting at.

I think you are mixing and matching reasons and actions to form a purposefully contradictory standpoint that I'm not sure is held by any significant group of people.
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:29:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let people believe how they want and let them show their beliefs in public. If your Buddhist, Jewish, Atheist, Mormon, Islam, as long as your not hurting people... See people just want everyone to see it there way that's why we have these problems,
and it bugs me that's all. That's what the constitution is saying.
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yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:32:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:29:32 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:25:17 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:19:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:17:21 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)



Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest

That brings me to my next point can we call atheist raciest against Christians?

You can. Certainly. You'd be wrong and crazy to say it, but you can still say it.


But hear me out, you can call a Christian raciest for being offended with islam and no ones says anything...
I don't agree with Christians that do this, i believe people should embrace their beliefs no matter what they are... just so you know...
but it seems to be ok for others to be irate with Christians for embracing their beliefs . Thats my point that Im getting at.

I think you are mixing and matching reasons and actions to form a purposefully contradictory standpoint that I'm not sure is held by any significant group of people.

I was trying to get peoples attention to make my point that let people believe what they want and shut up if you don't like it. We have freedom to believe what we want and to many people trying to force their beliefs on others.
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NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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7/25/2012 10:36:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 9:45:15 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:32 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
Whilst I'm an avowed secularist, I, like everyone I'd heard of up until this point, am more than happy to make allowances for the President, given that he's a single man acting as the Executive, it's only reasonable to let him speak as he deems fitting. As-long as this isn't conflated into policy, I'm content.

However, it is worth noting that if nontheism continues to grow, and the religious stock diversifies due to immigration/conversion, a less overtly Christian message might be more welcomed in future. I figure this'll take the form of a gradual slide to Christ-centered unitarianism long before anything "radical" though.

Personally, I have problems when someone who is the head of state, meaning representative of their country, someone who has taken it upon themselves to be willingly the figurehead of a laicitéan state, proclaiming it to be a laicitéan state, and promoting laicitéan values, can abandon them all and say these kinds of things. The problem is that Obama - or any political leader - becomes the representative of the state. They must abandon their own personal values and judgements, and changes in such, and do what their manifesto states, whilst following the laws of the country. Obama is elected in a laicitéan country. He promoted laicitéan values. Going back on them is not just hypocritically inconsistent, but a betrayal to those who put him in power: the people.

And no, those last two words were not an invitation for conspiracy theories about reptiles taking over the world.

The problem is, the Federal Government is surreptitiously secular. All the debates about the extent to which any branch should be religious, or most of the serious ones, occurred many years before we were born. I don't know how many electors voted for Obama on the explicit basis that he'd honor the Establishment Clause, I have no sense of how many Americans would actually approve of that Clause in any case, taken to its natural conclusions I mean (I hope a majority).

In America, the Head of State is a political figure. It's necessarily true that, unless there's unanimity, he/she won't be representative of all the people all the time. But I don't think it's even practicable to require that the President moderates his speech in that way - I'd rather he was less overtly religious, but especially if it's going to affect how he acts, I'd rather it was in the open. The President is a man who represents the people insofar as he is able, it does the nation a disservice to pretend that he's anything more than that.

I really sympathize with what you're saying though.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/25/2012 10:44:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:32:59 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:29:32 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:25:17 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:19:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:17:21 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)



Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest

That brings me to my next point can we call atheist raciest against Christians?

You can. Certainly. You'd be wrong and crazy to say it, but you can still say it.


But hear me out, you can call a Christian raciest for being offended with islam and no ones says anything...
I don't agree with Christians that do this, i believe people should embrace their beliefs no matter what they are... just so you know...
but it seems to be ok for others to be irate with Christians for embracing their beliefs . Thats my point that Im getting at.

I think you are mixing and matching reasons and actions to form a purposefully contradictory standpoint that I'm not sure is held by any significant group of people.

I was trying to get peoples attention to make my point that let people believe what they want and shut up if you don't like it. We have freedom to believe what we want and to many people trying to force their beliefs on others.

I don't think any objection was made regarding anyone's beliefs. The objection was about his action.
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:56:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:44:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:32:59 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:29:32 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:25:17 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:19:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:17:21 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)



Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest

That brings me to my next point can we call atheist raciest against Christians?

You can. Certainly. You'd be wrong and crazy to say it, but you can still say it.


But hear me out, you can call a Christian raciest for being offended with islam and no ones says anything...
I don't agree with Christians that do this, i believe people should embrace their beliefs no matter what they are... just so you know...
but it seems to be ok for others to be irate with Christians for embracing their beliefs . Thats my point that Im getting at.

I think you are mixing and matching reasons and actions to form a purposefully contradictory standpoint that I'm not sure is held by any significant group of people.

I was trying to get peoples attention to make my point that let people believe what they want and shut up if you don't like it. We have freedom to believe what we want and to many people trying to force their beliefs on others.

I don't think any objection was made regarding anyone's beliefs. The objection was about his action.

If you want a fake president then that is your choice...
It shows a realness of his empathy, to bring himself into the element.
I would expect an Islam. If he didn't then does he really care?
Me
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 10:59:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:56:50 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:44:50 AM, drafterman wrote:


I think you are mixing and matching reasons and actions to form a purposefully contradictory standpoint that I'm not sure is held by any significant group of people.

I was trying to get peoples attention to make my point that let people believe what they want and shut up if you don't like it. We have freedom to believe what we want and to many people trying to force their beliefs on others.

I don't think any objection was made regarding anyone's beliefs. The objection was about his action.

If you want a fake president then that is your choice...
It shows a realness of his empathy, to bring himself into the element.
I would expect an Islam, . If he didn't then does he really care?

I meant to say at the end there that i would expect and Islam to do the same, if he didn't does he really care?
Me
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/25/2012 11:00:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:56:50 AM, yoda878 wrote:

I don't think any objection was made regarding anyone's beliefs. The objection was about his action.

If you want a fake president then that is your choice...

A Hobson's choice, maybe.

It shows a realness of his empathy, to bring himself into the element.

That's not his job.

I would expect an Islam. If he didn't then does he really care?

Neither of these sentences make any sense.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/25/2012 11:09:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:56:50 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:44:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:32:59 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:29:32 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:25:17 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:19:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:17:21 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:16:01 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:14:53 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:10:56 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:40:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 7/25/2012 9:02:51 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:55:37 AM, yoda878 wrote:
(WZ)



Lol wut? Conservatives give Islam respect?

They would be foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs.

They would also be called raciest

That brings me to my next point can we call atheist raciest against Christians?

You can. Certainly. You'd be wrong and crazy to say it, but you can still say it.


But hear me out, you can call a Christian raciest for being offended with islam and no ones says anything...
I don't agree with Christians that do this, i believe people should embrace their beliefs no matter what they are... just so you know...
but it seems to be ok for others to be irate with Christians for embracing their beliefs . Thats my point that Im getting at.

I think you are mixing and matching reasons and actions to form a purposefully contradictory standpoint that I'm not sure is held by any significant group of people.

I was trying to get peoples attention to make my point that let people believe what they want and shut up if you don't like it. We have freedom to believe what we want and to many people trying to force their beliefs on others.

I don't think any objection was made regarding anyone's beliefs. The objection was about his action.

If you want a fake president then that is your choice...
It shows a realness of his empathy, to bring himself into the element.
I would expect an Islam. If he didn't then does he really care?

Wait, you think Barack Obama is an honest guy? As P_0 said its a politically positive act to call out a prayer. The demographic overwhelmingly favors a christian president over a muslim or atheist. Why do you think people were trying to call Barack Obama a muslim? I mean, if religion didn't matter then it wouldn't really be an issue.
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yoda878
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7/25/2012 11:11:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 11:00:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:56:50 AM, yoda878 wrote:

I don't think any objection was made regarding anyone's beliefs. The objection was about his action.

If you want a fake president then that is your choice...

A Hobson's choice, maybe.

Maybe but you have the right to vote for the most fake...

It shows a realness of his empathy, to bring himself into the element.

That's not his job.

There was a massacre in the USA if his belief is that a prayer will help then it is his job to do it.

I would expect an Islam. If he didn't then does he really care?

Neither of these sentences make any sense.
I fixed this I meant to say I would expect an Islam to do the same, if he doesn't does he care?
Me
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 11:15:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 11:09:42 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:56:50 AM, yoda878 wrote:

I was trying to get peoples attention to make my point that let people believe what they want and shut up if you don't like it. We have freedom to believe what we want and to many people trying to force their beliefs on others.

I don't think any objection was made regarding anyone's beliefs. The objection was about his action.

If you want a fake president then that is your choice...
It shows a realness of his empathy, to bring himself into the element.
I would expect an Islam. If he didn't then does he really care?

Wait, you think Barack Obama is an honest guy? As P_0 said its a politically positive act to call out a prayer. The demographic overwhelmingly favors a christian president over a muslim or atheist. Why do you think people were trying to call Barack Obama a muslim? I mean, if religion didn't matter then it wouldn't really be an issue.

lol I'm gonna leave that one alone, but in a time like this he should be able to call on prayer. Its not like he asked the nation to bow our heads and pray with him lol
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/25/2012 11:20:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 11:11:38 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 11:00:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:56:50 AM, yoda878 wrote:

I don't think any objection was made regarding anyone's beliefs. The objection was about his action.

If you want a fake president then that is your choice...

A Hobson's choice, maybe.

Maybe but you have the right to vote for the most fake...

It shows a realness of his empathy, to bring himself into the element.

That's not his job.

There was a massacre in the USA if his belief is that a prayer will help then it is his job to do it.

Really? Since you're all about the Constitution, please point out where the Constitution enumerates this as a responsibility of the President.


I would expect an Islam. If he didn't then does he really care?

Neither of these sentences make any sense.
I fixed this I meant to say I would expect an Islam to do the same, if he doesn't does he care?

Wrong. If he truly cared, then he wouldn't have assumed that all of the victims believe in the same bearded sky faerie, nor invoked one for consolation.

Children were victims here too. Would you expect him to call upon Santa for assistance?
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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7/25/2012 11:24:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The President enjoys free speech like everyone else. He can say a prayer if he wants to.

I don't see significant harm in having Christian symbolism in public places. Britain and Japan, for example, have official state religions. It doesn't seem to matter very much. It makes believers happy, and to non-believers it is meaningless. there is no reason to get excited over something meaningless.