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"You didn't build that"

Double_R
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7/25/2012 3:37:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Listening to Romney last week as he completely took Obama's "you didn't build that" speech out of context just to attack the strawman made me wonder if Romney (and those who supported his attacks) have any understanding of the "you didn't succeed on your own" argument. Turns out Romney understands the argument full well, he even gave a speech on the subject (watch 1:20 - 2:00). If even he understands it then why can't we just accept that Obama is right?
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 3:49:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago



WOOOOOOT WOOOOOOOT cant wait till this man is president!!!!

Go Romney 2012!!!

Oh i'm sorry go I got caught up in the moment. To what you said, if Obama meant what Romney is saying here, (which I'm sure he didn't) then lets face it Romney said it so much better. :) Great speech thanks
Me
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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7/25/2012 3:51:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 3:37:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
Listening to Romney last week as he completely took Obama's "you didn't build that" speech out of context just to attack the strawman made me wonder if Romney (and those who supported his attacks) have any understanding of the "you didn't succeed on your own" argument. Turns out Romney understands the argument full well, he even gave a speech on the subject (watch 1:20 - 2:00). If even he understands it then why can't we just accept that Obama is right?



You can't honestly be surprised. Romney will do and say ANYTHING to deceive people into electing him.
Sapere Aude!
yoda878
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7/25/2012 3:54:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

You can't honestly be surprised. Romney will do and say ANYTHING to deceive people into electing him.

Romney said thanks to the coaches and teachers and all that, he didn't say the Olympians didn't do this and that we should give their metals to the coaches and teachers.
Me
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/25/2012 3:58:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
They all understand the validity of Obama's argument,..anyone with a brain and 2 seconds worth of thought can accomplish that much. However, to acknowledge so would give credence to some aspects of liberalism. ...and apparently we can't have that. Republicans have a high tendency for partisan politics, whereas Democrats tend to jump ship whenever it suits them or whenever it makes sense for them individually.

On an unrelated note. The speech in the video is the most generic nonsense I've ever heard. Starting it off talking about children he couldn't possibly care less about.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Double_R
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7/25/2012 4:08:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 3:54:27 PM, yoda878 wrote:

You can't honestly be surprised. Romney will do and say ANYTHING to deceive people into electing him.

Romney said thanks to the coaches and teachers and all that, he didn't say the Olympians didn't do this and that we should give their metals to the coaches and teachers.

No one thinks that Olympians didn't do what they did, his point was that they didn't do it alone. This is exactly why I posted this thread. In order to argue against the "you didn't succeed on your own" argument you have to misconstrue it first.
Double_R
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7/25/2012 4:12:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 3:49:28 PM, yoda878 wrote:



WOOOOOOT WOOOOOOOT cant wait till this man is president!!!!

Go Romney 2012!!!

Oh i'm sorry go I got caught up in the moment. To what you said, if Obama meant what Romney is saying here, (which I'm sure he didn't) then lets face it Romney said it so much better. :) Great speech thanks

Did you listen to Obama's speech?
Lordknukle
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7/25/2012 4:15:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Obama's argument is valid, but he has no evidence to quantify the mathematical impact that his argument makes and no way of asserting a conclusion.

Basically, he is stating that people use public goods, and hence should pay for them via taxes. This makes perfect sense and I agree with him. However, he ultimately brings this to the neo-liberal mantra of "tax the rich," which is a faulty conclusion considering that he has made no calculations regarding how much (on average) the rich use of public goods and how much the poor use of public goods. Only from this calculation, can he proclaim to "tax the rich" or his opponents might proclaim "tax cuts for the rich." Otherwise, it is useless propaganda and Romney is right to point him out on that.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
NixonianVolkswagen
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7/25/2012 4:24:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Obama really should have run with, "You didn't build that... God made that possible." instead. He'd be untouchable right now.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
yoda878
Posts: 902
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7/25/2012 4:27:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 4:12:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/25/2012 3:49:28 PM, yoda878 wrote:



WOOOOOOT WOOOOOOOT cant wait till this man is president!!!!

Go Romney 2012!!!

Oh i'm sorry go I got caught up in the moment. To what you said, if Obama meant what Romney is saying here, (which I'm sure he didn't) then lets face it Romney said it so much better. :) Great speech thanks

Did you listen to Obama's speech?

Yeas and like I said Romney didn't say that the Olympians, needed to give half their medals back to the coaches.
Yes and his whole deal was that they should give more back. Give back to what? Tax money so that it can be spent on how him and congress see fit? Is that really ok with you. You know, when your boss starts paying more taxes, you know what that means dont you? Think about it it a little bit.

= less money in your pocket. If he pays 70% how much of that is going to effect you?

But I guess the Feds can distribute it better huh?
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Apollo.11
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7/25/2012 4:34:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 3:54:27 PM, yoda878 wrote:

You can't honestly be surprised. Romney will do and say ANYTHING to deceive people into electing him.

Romney said thanks to the coaches and teachers and all that, he didn't say the Olympians didn't do this and that we should give their metals to the coaches and teachers.
You obviously didn't listen to Obama's speech. He never implied that success is in no part due to one's self. He explained how success is, at least in part, reliant on the rest of society.
Sapere Aude!
yoda878
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7/25/2012 4:41:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 4:34:48 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 3:54:27 PM, yoda878 wrote:

You can't honestly be surprised. Romney will do and say ANYTHING to deceive people into electing him.

Romney said thanks to the coaches and teachers and all that, he didn't say the Olympians didn't do this and that we should give their metals to the coaches and teachers.
You obviously didn't listen to Obama's speech. He never implied that success is in no part due to one's self. He explained how success is, at least in part, reliant on the rest of society.
I understand that, and do agree, and yes I did watch it, but you have to know what he is saying because hes been beating the 'give back, high taxes drum' his whole presidency. This is his reasoning behind it, and you know it.
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JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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7/25/2012 5:09:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Romney and other conservatives don't object to the notion that no business person got to where they are by themselves, of course they didn't.

That's not what Obama was saying. What Obama was saying is that the government and governmental programs are what really deserve a lot of the credit for businesses. That is what is objectionable.

Furthermore, he seemed to imply that businesses and wealthy individuals don't already pay for these basic services through taxes.

What Obama won't tell you is that the so called rich already pay plenty in taxes. More than enough to fund roads and education. The reason he wants to raise taxes is to pay for ENTITLEMENTS, which have never helped build a business.

Obama also won't tell you that the big government that he has championed has been nothing but a blockade to new businesses. Which it has.

In the end, Obama's comments are even more frightening IN context than out of context. They still convey this basic message.

Both Romney and Obama understand and believe that no businessperson got where they are alone. However, the difference is that Obama believes that a large part of this success is because of big government while Romney believes it has been DESPITE big government.

Evidence supports Romney.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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7/25/2012 5:22:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
thett3
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7/25/2012 5:23:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Obama falsely assumes that the status quo of democratic socialism is ideal. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone points a gun to my head and tells me to use their services and pay for them or face imprisonment/death, I don't owe them a damn thing if I'm successful anyway. I understand if he's saying one cannot get by without society, but he isn't advocating giving back to society, he's advocating the government taking more as if government = society. Anyone who cannot tell the difference between government and society is an obstinate fool.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Microsuck
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7/25/2012 5:25:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. "
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Lordknukle
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7/25/2012 5:33:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 5:25:05 PM, Microsuck wrote:
"Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. "

Why is my quote on the "Wall of Fail?"
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Double_R
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7/25/2012 5:38:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 4:41:45 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 4:34:48 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 3:54:27 PM, yoda878 wrote:

You can't honestly be surprised. Romney will do and say ANYTHING to deceive people into electing him.

Romney said thanks to the coaches and teachers and all that, he didn't say the Olympians didn't do this and that we should give their metals to the coaches and teachers.
You obviously didn't listen to Obama's speech. He never implied that success is in no part due to one's self. He explained how success is, at least in part, reliant on the rest of society.
I understand that, and do agree, and yes I did watch it, but you have to know what he is saying because hes been beating the 'give back, high taxes drum' his whole presidency. This is his reasoning behind it, and you know it.

Why don't you allow Obama to make his own arguments then argue against what he said? Because it's easier to make up your own version of what he is saying to attack.

The argument is not actually an argument, it's a rebuttal. A rebuttal to the notion that rich people are rich because they work that much harder then everyone else. A rebuttal to the ridiculous conservative notion that rich people alone created all of these jobs for us and that we should all be on our hands and knees thanking them for it. Again, no one is saying that they don't deserve credit for it, just that we need to recognize society's role in it as well.

Where we go from there, whether it be raising taxes on the rich or whatever else is a whole other debate, but that debate can not be had without first acknowledging this point. However many people still don't, hence the need for Obama to give a speech about it.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/25/2012 5:50:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 5:23:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Obama falsely assumes that the status quo of democratic socialism is ideal. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone points a gun to my head and tells me to use their services and pay for them or face imprisonment/death, I don't owe them a damn thing if I'm successful anyway. I understand if he's saying one cannot get by without society, but he isn't advocating giving back to society, he's advocating the government taking more as if government = society. Anyone who cannot tell the difference between government and society is an obstinate fool.

Except that he's arguing for a compulsory repayment to society, which of course can't be enforced without governmental intervention.

Moreover, in a democratic society, the government is not an independent entity with some obscene concentration of power. The problem with Libertarian thinking is this tendency to mistake the government as a structural entity for the government as a body of people. If you consider the government as a body of people,..then it doesn't actually monopolize power since new people are entering and leaving at definite periods of time. The government is a representation of society, is regulated by society, and composed of members of society. By giving to it you ARE giving to society.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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7/25/2012 5:58:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 5:50:07 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:23:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Obama falsely assumes that the status quo of democratic socialism is ideal. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone points a gun to my head and tells me to use their services and pay for them or face imprisonment/death, I don't owe them a damn thing if I'm successful anyway. I understand if he's saying one cannot get by without society, but he isn't advocating giving back to society, he's advocating the government taking more as if government = society. Anyone who cannot tell the difference between government and society is an obstinate fool.

Except that he's arguing for a compulsory repayment to society, which of course can't be enforced without governmental intervention.

1. They got wealthy by production so they've already repaid society, 2. They paid for their use of public services with taxation already, 3. It's only a repayment to society if its proven that what the government does with its tax dollars is generally better than what individuals would do with their own money. Good luck proving that one.

Moreover, in a democratic society, the government is not an independent entity with some obscene concentration of power.

Then what is it then? I guess you dont see the power to assassinate and imprison your citizens at will as obscene.

The problem with Libertarian thinking is this tendency to mistake the government as a structural entity for the government as a body of people.

Who told you that?

If you consider the government as a body of people,..then it doesn't actually monopolize power

Lolwut? Your argument: A monopoly is not a monopoly because different people run it. Ok.....

since new people are entering and leaving at definite periods of time. The government is a representation of society

I think basically everyone can agree that one is a lie

, is regulated by society

Lol?

and composed of members of society. By giving to it you ARE giving to society.

No...you arent. Giving to society would be like, voluntarily building a road or something. Having your money stolen by some hacks who think they're entitled to it so they can invade third world nations and provide incentives to not produce isn't helping society.

Giving is definitionally voluntary
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Lordknukle
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7/25/2012 6:12:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 6:10:45 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:22:58 PM, Microsuck wrote:


Can you show one thing he said in this video that is not true?

This notion that somehow it's not the smart, the hardworking, or the motivated that make it in society. Clearly, he is implying that their success is based upon luck- which is absurd because luck doesn't exist. Actions and consequences exist. People just deem something "luck" when they do not want to face the results of their actions, and henceforth their consequences.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/25/2012 6:15:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 5:58:45 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:50:07 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:23:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Obama falsely assumes that the status quo of democratic socialism is ideal. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone points a gun to my head and tells me to use their services and pay for them or face imprisonment/death, I don't owe them a damn thing if I'm successful anyway. I understand if he's saying one cannot get by without society, but he isn't advocating giving back to society, he's advocating the government taking more as if government = society. Anyone who cannot tell the difference between government and society is an obstinate fool.

Except that he's arguing for a compulsory repayment to society, which of course can't be enforced without governmental intervention.

1. They got wealthy by production so they've already repaid society, 2. They paid for their use of public services with taxation already, 3. It's only a repayment to society if its proven that what the government does with its tax dollars is generally better than what individuals would do with their own money. Good luck proving that one.

The argument here is a defense of the progressive tax system, as in they haven't paid enough. So, no to #1 and 2. As for 3, you're not paying attention. The government is needed to FORCE the repayment, but you keep referring to voluntary charity. To be more organized, you should be arguing why this repayment should not be forced...otherwise, you make a moot point.

No...you arent. Giving to society would be like, voluntarily building a road or something. Having your money stolen by some hacks who think they're entitled to it so they can invade third world nations and provide incentives to not produce isn't helping society.

Giving is definitionally voluntary

The government does nothing that the majority disagrees with...even the most shocking things, you'll find that a healthy majority of Americans supported at the time. The government is the mouthpiece of our own ignorance. So really you're attacking the symptom rather than the disease. The separation of government and society is a false dichotomy that only exists in a Libertarian's mind.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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7/25/2012 6:26:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 6:15:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:58:45 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:50:07 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:23:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Obama falsely assumes that the status quo of democratic socialism is ideal. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone points a gun to my head and tells me to use their services and pay for them or face imprisonment/death, I don't owe them a damn thing if I'm successful anyway. I understand if he's saying one cannot get by without society, but he isn't advocating giving back to society, he's advocating the government taking more as if government = society. Anyone who cannot tell the difference between government and society is an obstinate fool.

Except that he's arguing for a compulsory repayment to society, which of course can't be enforced without governmental intervention.

1. They got wealthy by production so they've already repaid society, 2. They paid for their use of public services with taxation already, 3. It's only a repayment to society if its proven that what the government does with its tax dollars is generally better than what individuals would do with their own money. Good luck proving that one.

The argument here is a defense of the progressive tax system, as in they haven't paid enough.

Ahh yes of course, although they are already in a higher tax bracket then everyone else, the nearly 60% of all income taxes paid by the top 5% (who use public services less than the poor) isn't enough. Why? Because Obama says so apparently. Its unfair to let them keep what they earn. http://ntu.org...

So, no to #1 and 2. As for 3, you're not paying attention. The government is needed to FORCE the repayment

It's not a real repayment if theres no net benefit.

, but you keep referring to voluntary charity. To be more organized, you should be arguing why this repayment should not be forced

Hmm maybe because of my 1st and 2nd points which you dropped entirely

...otherwise, you make a moot point.

No...you arent. Giving to society would be like, voluntarily building a road or something. Having your money stolen by some hacks who think they're entitled to it so they can invade third world nations and provide incentives to not produce isn't helping society.

Giving is definitionally voluntary

The government does nothing that the majority disagrees with

Empirically false, look at Obamacare.

...even the most shocking things, you'll find that a healthy majority of Americans supported at the time.

Empirically falsifiable, but moreover public opinion does not dictate right and wrong, whatever morals you have (subjective or otherwise).

The government is the mouthpiece of our own ignorance. So really you're attacking the symptom rather than the disease.

No, the unfettered growth of government robbing us of individual responsibility is quite obviously the main cause of what's happening to our society. Refer the democracy the God that failed.

The separation of government and society is a false dichotomy that only exists in a Libertarian's mind.

Care to explain why its false?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bossyburrito
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7/25/2012 6:29:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 3:58:24 PM, 000ike wrote:
They all understand the validity of Obama's argument,..anyone with a brain and 2 seconds worth of thought can accomplish that much. However, to acknowledge so would give credence to some aspects of liberalism. ...and apparently we can't have that. Republicans have a high tendency for partisan politics, whereas Democrats tend to jump ship whenever it suits them or whenever it makes sense for them individually.

On an unrelated note. The speech in the video is the most generic nonsense I've ever heard. Starting it off talking about children he couldn't possibly care less about.

A-Fvcking-Men.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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7/25/2012 6:35:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 6:26:21 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 6:15:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:58:45 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:50:07 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:23:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Obama falsely assumes that the status quo of democratic socialism is ideal. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone points a gun to my head and tells me to use their services and pay for them or face imprisonment/death, I don't owe them a damn thing if I'm successful anyway. I understand if he's saying one cannot get by without society, but he isn't advocating giving back to society, he's advocating the government taking more as if government = society. Anyone who cannot tell the difference between government and society is an obstinate fool.

Except that he's arguing for a compulsory repayment to society, which of course can't be enforced without governmental intervention.

1. They got wealthy by production so they've already repaid society, 2. They paid for their use of public services with taxation already, 3. It's only a repayment to society if its proven that what the government does with its tax dollars is generally better than what individuals would do with their own money. Good luck proving that one.

The argument here is a defense of the progressive tax system, as in they haven't paid enough.

Ahh yes of course, although they are already in a higher tax bracket then everyone else, the nearly 60% of all income taxes paid by the top 5% (who use public services less than the poor) isn't enough. Why? Because Obama says so apparently. Its unfair to let them keep what they earn. http://ntu.org...

So, no to #1 and 2. As for 3, you're not paying attention. The government is needed to FORCE the repayment

It's not a real repayment if theres no net benefit.

, but you keep referring to voluntary charity. To be more organized, you should be arguing why this repayment should not be forced

Hmm maybe because of my 1st and 2nd points which you dropped entirely

...otherwise, you make a moot point.

No...you arent. Giving to society would be like, voluntarily building a road or something. Having your money stolen by some hacks who think they're entitled to it so they can invade third world nations and provide incentives to not produce isn't helping society.

Giving is definitionally voluntary

The government does nothing that the majority disagrees with

Empirically false, look at Obamacare.

...even the most shocking things, you'll find that a healthy majority of Americans supported at the time.

Empirically falsifiable, but moreover public opinion does not dictate right and wrong, whatever morals you have (subjective or otherwise).

The government is the mouthpiece of our own ignorance. So really you're attacking the symptom rather than the disease.

No, the unfettered growth of government robbing us of individual responsibility is quite obviously the main cause of what's happening to our society. Refer the democracy the God that failed.

The separation of government and society is a false dichotomy that only exists in a Libertarian's mind.

Care to explain why its false?

I have to go now, it was nice discussing with you. Peace out!
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
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7/25/2012 6:45:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 6:26:21 PM, thett3 wrote:

Ahh yes of course, although they are already in a higher tax bracket then everyone else, the nearly 60% of all income taxes paid by the top 5% (who use public services less than the poor) isn't enough. Why? Because Obama says so apparently. Its unfair to let them keep what they earn. http://ntu.org...

Oh please spare me that arrant nonsense..."In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%."( http://en.wikipedia.org... ) Now add to that the tax evasion so many of them engage in.

Empirically false, look at Obamacare.
Empirically falsifiable, but moreover public opinion does not dictate right and wrong, whatever morals you have (subjective or otherwise).

It's not a perfect system,...and at best you'll find a 51% disagreement (in the case of Obamacare). This is uncommon. Anyway, you're dodging my point for some meaningless knitpicking. The greatest obstruction to your political system is society, and the government is merely a symptom of that problem. If you want to get quantitative, bringing up obscure and infrequent cases of a minor margin of disagreement, I guess we can end the conversation now and save time.

The government is the mouthpiece of our own ignorance. So really you're attacking the symptom rather than the disease.

No, the unfettered growth of government robbing us of individual responsibility is quite obviously the main cause of what's happening to our society. Refer the democracy the God that failed.

The separation of government and society is a false dichotomy that only exists in a Libertarian's mind.

Care to explain why its false?

I just did. Democratic government = society in a mirror. The state is just a realistic strawman, so convincing to blame that you don't realize it isn't the root or facilitator of the real problem.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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7/25/2012 7:02:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is really a stupid way of passing the buck on creativity. Heck, why not just say God provided you with all raw materials and call it a day.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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7/25/2012 7:47:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 6:12:57 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 7/25/2012 6:10:45 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/25/2012 5:22:58 PM, Microsuck wrote:


Can you show one thing he said in this video that is not true?

This notion that somehow it's not the smart, the hardworking, or the motivated that make it in society. Clearly, he is implying that their success is based upon luck- which is absurd because luck doesn't exist. Actions and consequences exist. People just deem something "luck" when they do not want to face the results of their actions, and henceforth their consequences.

*yawn* The strawmanning is getting very tiresome. No, he wasn't saying that rich people are just lucky and poor people are unlucky. He was saying that being smart and working hard alone do not make you rich. If that were the case there would be a lot more rich people out there. The wealth imbalance in this country is not the result of smart and stupid people, it is the result of the capitalist "system" in this country which has evolved over many many years. That is the system he was referring to.

Many years ago you could drive through town and find plenty of mom and pops stores to shop and restaurants to patron. If you wanted to be successful in that field all you had to do was start one for yourself and do better then your neighbors. To do the same today you have to compete with Wal-Mart and McDonalds which is far more difficult. Wal-Mart sells so much that they are able to get better deals from their suppliers then their competitors. The fact that they pay their suppliers so much less then their competitors allows them to lower their prices even more enticing more people to shop their. More people shopping there results in selling more and demanding even better deals from their suppliers. Small business can't compete with this, so little by little they all go out of business resulting in more people shopping at Wal-Mart. The cycle continues…

That is how capitalism works, and it does not favor a balanced society. It favors a society where a few people continue to grow while everyone else is forced to work for them. That is why self employment rates have decreased dramatically in the past century. The individuals who have been successful in one way or another did so with the help of this system, while the ones at the bottom are handicapped because of it. If you want an example of this just look at the CEO of Wal-Mart's salary; over $35 million in 2010. Where was that opportunity back in 1900, when mom and pops stores were the only place to shop?

So again, the point he was making is not that being hard working and motivated has nothing to do with being successful as you conveniently interpret it, he is pointing out that hard work and motivation is not the only thing to consider. Our capitalist system in many cases has just as much to do with creating millionaires as the millionaires themselves.
darkkermit
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7/25/2012 9:11:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Of course Mitt Romney is going to use what Obama said to his political advantage and strawman it. That's what politicians do. Same reason why Obama's going to attack Bain Capital.

To me though, Obama seems to imply more that its government doing that helped people to success. He cites roads, bridges, and teachers which are government run institutes. Mitt Romney cites family and community, non-government things that helps people succeed.
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