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Is City-State a good form of Governance?

clonez
Posts: 16
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7/27/2012 11:25:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I feel that tackling national issues can be such a monumental task. If only each jurisdiction could look after themselves and be somewhat self sufficient, it would be a much more efficient use of resources. Like the Greeks back in the Classical Age (see: Athens, Sparta) were intellectual and cultural centers, and completely self-governing. Take a few modern day examples: Singapore- a thriving metropolis that is one of the richest areas in Asia; Monaco- one of the richest countries in the world (per capita); Vatican City- a thriving tourist block. Of course it probably isn't feasible to make this a world-wide form of governance, but I think that it would be a good idea to have more city-states (e.g. Hong Kong, Macau, etc) So do you think it is a good form of governance? And give reasons for why it does or doesn't work on a larger scale.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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7/27/2012 11:41:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/27/2012 11:25:34 AM, clonez wrote:
I feel that tackling national issues can be such a monumental task. If only each jurisdiction could look after themselves and be somewhat self sufficient, it would be a much more efficient use of resources. Like the Greeks back in the Classical Age (see: Athens, Sparta) were intellectual and cultural centers, and completely self-governing. Take a few modern day examples: Singapore- a thriving metropolis that is one of the richest areas in Asia; Monaco- one of the richest countries in the world (per capita); Vatican City- a thriving tourist block. Of course it probably isn't feasible to make this a world-wide form of governance, but I think that it would be a good idea to have more city-states (e.g. Hong Kong, Macau, etc) So do you think it is a good form of governance? And give reasons for why it does or doesn't work on a larger scale.

You mean a confederation? Ancient Greece was a confederations of states (city-states) A city State may govern a territory greater than the city it's-self. The Spartan territory was far greater than the city of Sparta. Rome was an Imperial City State. DC is a city-state; DC being the Union State of the American Federation. Mexico City, and Vatican City are also city states.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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7/27/2012 11:59:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't wish to seem pedantic, but it's worth mentioning that Sparta and Greece did war with each other.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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7/27/2012 12:14:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/27/2012 11:59:00 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
I don't wish to seem pedantic, but it's worth mentioning that Sparta and Greece did war with each other.

Sparta was a Greek City-State; the Greek City States did war with each other, quite frequently, but when one was attacked by a non-Greek state they would come to each others defense. For example, the Persian invasion of Greece.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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7/27/2012 12:18:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/27/2012 12:14:22 PM, DanT wrote:
At 7/27/2012 11:59:00 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
I don't wish to seem pedantic, but it's worth mentioning that Sparta and Greece did war with each other.

Sparta was a Greek City-State; the Greek City States did war with each other, quite frequently, but when one was attacked by a non-Greek state they would come to each others defense. For example, the Persian invasion of Greece.

Oh right, sorry, that wasn't aimed at you, just at the general premise that we should emulate the Athens-Sparta dynamic in our designing of government.

I thought your consideration of the ancient Greek context was interesting. I was wondering actually, I hadn't heard that the situation was formalized? Like, was there a treaty or something that meant the Greek states banded together, a structure, or was it just expedience?
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/27/2012 12:39:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/27/2012 11:25:34 AM, clonez wrote:
I feel that tackling national issues can be such a monumental task. If only each jurisdiction could look after themselves and be somewhat self sufficient, it would be a much more efficient use of resources. Like the Greeks back in the Classical Age (see: Athens, Sparta) were intellectual and cultural centers, and completely self-governing. Take a few modern day examples: Singapore- a thriving metropolis that is one of the richest areas in Asia; Monaco- one of the richest countries in the world (per capita); Vatican City- a thriving tourist block. Of course it probably isn't feasible to make this a world-wide form of governance, but I think that it would be a good idea to have more city-states (e.g. Hong Kong, Macau, etc) So do you think it is a good form of governance? And give reasons for why it does or doesn't work on a larger scale.:

There's obviously pro's and con's. Small nations and/or City-State's (Estonia, UAE)generally do a great job of governing, on account of its size, but in terms of security it could present an issue. Places like Hong Kong are not totally sovereign either. China owns it and military responsibility is theirs.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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7/27/2012 1:55:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Greeks were a Confederation of independent City-States. The confederation was known as the "Great Amphictyonic League of Delphi". Their confederated armies would often war with each other, but would band together to fight a common enemy, such as the Achaemenid Empire of Persia during the Greco-Persian Wars.

Within the Delphi Amphictyonic there were other leagues such as the Peloponnesian League. The Peloponnesian League was led by Sparta, and when the Persians firs invaded, this was the league that fought off the Persians, along with several other city states from the greater Amphictyonic League (many Amphictynonic city-states remained neutral).

During the Greco-Persian Wars, during the second invasion of Greece the Athenians started the Delian League. After the Greco-Persian Wars the Athienian Delian league and the Spartan Peloponnesian League would go to war, leading the the end of the Delian League.

The Amphictyonic League went to war with southern Greek city states (such as Athens and Sparta) during the Third Sacred War, which resulted in the confederate Amphictyonic League being replaced by the federal League of Corinth, now led by Macedonia rather than the Hellenistic Delphians. The League of Corinth than turned into the Macedonian Empire under Alexander the Great.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
clonez
Posts: 16
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7/27/2012 3:31:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well in the interest of defence, the Athens-Sparta alliance towards foreign powers is a great example of how regional defence blocs can be set up to ensure safety. In fact simply because there are separate governments doesn't mean that there can't be an overarching defence plan (e.g. the EU, UN system could be emulated on a smaller scale)
clonez
Posts: 16
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7/27/2012 3:36:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/27/2012 12:39:32 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
There's obviously pro's and con's. Small nations and/or City-State's (Estonia, UAE)generally do a great job of governing, on account of its size, but in terms of security it could present an issue. Places like Hong Kong are not totally sovereign either. China owns it and military responsibility is theirs.:

Yes I was saying that if we make more city states (such as making Hong Kong and Macau independent), it would be beneficial, especially since these two territories are already very autonomous.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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7/27/2012 3:55:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/27/2012 12:18:46 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 7/27/2012 12:14:22 PM, DanT wrote:
At 7/27/2012 11:59:00 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
I don't wish to seem pedantic, but it's worth mentioning that Sparta and Greece did war with each other.

Sparta was a Greek City-State; the Greek City States did war with each other, quite frequently, but when one was attacked by a non-Greek state they would come to each others defense. For example, the Persian invasion of Greece.

Oh right, sorry, that wasn't aimed at you, just at the general premise that we should emulate the Athens-Sparta dynamic in our designing of government.

I thought your consideration of the ancient Greek context was interesting. I was wondering actually, I hadn't heard that the situation was formalized? Like, was there a treaty or something that meant the Greek states banded together, a structure, or was it just expedience?

Simply, there was a lot of leagues made, which were enforced either through military might, military expedience or political pressure. I know there's other explanations, but this is the shortest: they were made binding, but binding like UN resolutions: strongly advisory, but not necessary.
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DanT
Posts: 5,693
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7/28/2012 4:00:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are 6 main types of constitutions, and 3 main types of states.

The 6 main constitutions are ;
1.) Monarchies (A monarchy is when one person holds sovereignty over the state, but their authority is confined by rules, traditions, and expectations.)
2.) Tyrannies (A tyranny is when a monarch is illegitimate or unrestrained.)
3.) Aristocracies (An Aristocracy is when sovereignty over the state rests in the hands of a select few based on their qualifications.)
4.) Oligarchies (An Oligarchy is when a few elites hold sovereignty over the state regardless of qualification.)
6.) Republics (A Republic is when the entire community holds sovereignty over the state)
5.) Democracies (A Democracy is when the majority of citizens hold sovereignty over the state)

The 3 main states are;
1.) Unitary State (When one state holds supreme sovereignty)
2.) Federation of State (When the member states and union state shares sovereignty, in a league of states)
3.) Confederation of States (when the member states hold supreme sovereignty, in a league of states)

A city-state by it's-self is a unitary state. A league of states is a confederation. If a central state shares sovereignty with the member states of a league of states than it is a federation. A the member states of a confederation or a Federation may be federations or confederations themselves. The UN is a federation as it shares sovereignty with it's member states; the US is a federation and a member state of the UN.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
clonez
Posts: 16
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7/28/2012 5:28:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ok it occurs to me that I may have been a bit vague about the term "good". By good I mean-- an effective allocation of resources, and serves the interests of the people and for society for the MOST part, and is a sustainable form of government for the world.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/28/2012 5:32:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/28/2012 5:28:41 PM, clonez wrote:
Ok it occurs to me that I may have been a bit vague about the term "good". By good I mean-- an effective allocation of resources, and serves the interests of the people and for society for the MOST part, and is a sustainable form of government for the world.

It would never stand for the world because city states will undoubtedly come together at some point to form a regular state such is the way of history and human nature.

In isolated and specific cases sure it would work. On a large scale it would not. People will always band together to form bigger more connected groups than a mere city.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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7/28/2012 5:54:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I love the idea of each city being their own autonomous government. It would create so much more specific character for places.
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DanT
Posts: 5,693
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7/28/2012 6:58:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/28/2012 5:54:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I love the idea of each city being their own autonomous government. It would create so much more specific character for places.

You also have to remember that the suburban and rural satellite towns would be part of the city state governed by the closest city. This of course would completely reform the representation of each US state within the federal government.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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7/28/2012 7:02:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/28/2012 6:58:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 7/28/2012 5:54:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I love the idea of each city being their own autonomous government. It would create so much more specific character for places.

You also have to remember that the suburban and rural satellite towns would be part of the city state governed by the closest city. This of course would completely reform the representation of each US state within the federal government.

The State Governments could be federations, or confederations of city-states within the American Federation. This would split state authority between the current member states and it's member city-states, with variation from state to state.
I personally like the current system; provided that politicians go back to following the constitution. I would not mind reverting back to a confederation of states.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle