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Are homosexuals discriminated against?

Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/1/2012 10:34:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is an interesting rebuttal I heard recently:

Most people love to cry, 'bigotry' 'hate' 'tantamount to racism!' Whenever someone says that gay marriage shouldn't be legalized.

Then your average-gay-rights advocate will say, "Why can't we have the same rights that everyone else does."

But in the end... Don't they? All homosexuals are allowed to be married. Gay men can marry women and lesbian women can marry men. It's the same right that heterosexuals have. Heterosexual men cannot marry men and heterosexual women cannot marry women.

It appears that everyone DOES have the same rights. So is this really bigotry?

Agree? Disagree? Should the desire of the few create NEW laws? And if it doesn't create new laws is it bigotry? How? (This isn't like slavery as so many people like to strawman the debate. In the issue of slavery, men and women weren't recognized as humans. There is a defining difference between personhood and preference.)
I'm interested in your responses.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/1/2012 10:35:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Everyone is discriminated against by someone. For instance, I discriminate against stupid people who think they aren't.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/1/2012 10:37:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 10:34:27 PM, Axiom wrote:
This is an interesting rebuttal I heard recently:

Most people love to cry, 'bigotry' 'hate' 'tantamount to racism!' Whenever someone says that gay marriage shouldn't be legalized.

Then your average-gay-rights advocate will say, "Why can't we have the same rights that everyone else does."

But in the end... Don't they? All homosexuals are allowed to be married. Gay men can marry women and lesbian women can marry men. It's the same right that heterosexuals have. Heterosexual men cannot marry men and heterosexual women cannot marry women.

It appears that everyone DOES have the same rights. So is this really bigotry?

Agree? Disagree? Should the desire of the few create NEW laws? And if it doesn't create new laws is it bigotry? How? (This isn't like slavery as so many people like to strawman the debate. In the issue of slavery, men and women weren't recognized as humans. There is a defining difference between personhood and preference.)
I'm interested in your responses.

On topic though, no it's not the same. Homosexuals aren't allowed to marry the people they are attracted to and wish to marry. Heterosexuals are.

It's pretty simple, the 'traditional' standard of what a marraige is, in this country, is based on our traditional judeo-christian morals. People feel like it s an attack on their religion and beliefs, when really it's not.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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8/1/2012 10:45:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here's a bad analogy of the argument.

Say attending a church was banned. Christians would claim they are being descriminated against. But in reality, no one could attend a church so they aren't specifically being descriminated against.

But really, the effect is descrimination. They are being barred from marrying who they want to marry. It is a terrible argument.
Sapere Aude!
Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/1/2012 10:45:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 10:37:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/1/2012 10:34:27 PM, Axiom wrote:
This is an interesting rebuttal I heard recently:

Most people love to cry, 'bigotry' 'hate' 'tantamount to racism!' Whenever someone says that gay marriage shouldn't be legalized.

Then your average-gay-rights advocate will say, "Why can't we have the same rights that everyone else does."

But in the end... Don't they? All homosexuals are allowed to be married. Gay men can marry women and lesbian women can marry men. It's the same right that heterosexuals have. Heterosexual men cannot marry men and heterosexual women cannot marry women.

It appears that everyone DOES have the same rights. So is this really bigotry?

Agree? Disagree? Should the desire of the few create NEW laws? And if it doesn't create new laws is it bigotry? How? (This isn't like slavery as so many people like to strawman the debate. In the issue of slavery, men and women weren't recognized as humans. There is a defining difference between personhood and preference.)
I'm interested in your responses.

On topic though, no it's not the same. Homosexuals aren't allowed to marry the people they are attracted to and wish to marry. Heterosexuals are.

It's pretty simple, the 'traditional' standard of what a marraige is, in this country, is based on our traditional judeo-christian morals. People feel like it s an attack on their religion and beliefs, when really it's not.

Hmm, I understand your point. And I'm all for promoting love, but I wonder if it'd be easier to simply give gay couples the right to get married and everything it entails and just call it something else. That way christian objectors can hang onto the word 'marriage' which they seem to find so precious and gay couples can create families. (Also, why don't christians object to atheists being married?)
Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/1/2012 10:46:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 10:35:39 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Everyone is discriminated against by someone. For instance, I discriminate against stupid people who think they aren't.

*suspicious voice
Are you inferring something about meeee?
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/1/2012 10:47:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It would be perfectly fine if marriage was a private contract (then you can discriminate all you want), but as a public option available for everyone except a specific group- in which there have to be no trivial limiting factors in the actual law- then it is discrimination.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/1/2012 10:49:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 10:45:53 PM, Axiom wrote:
At 8/1/2012 10:37:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/1/2012 10:34:27 PM, Axiom wrote:
This is an interesting rebuttal I heard recently:

Most people love to cry, 'bigotry' 'hate' 'tantamount to racism!' Whenever someone says that gay marriage shouldn't be legalized.

Then your average-gay-rights advocate will say, "Why can't we have the same rights that everyone else does."

But in the end... Don't they? All homosexuals are allowed to be married. Gay men can marry women and lesbian women can marry men. It's the same right that heterosexuals have. Heterosexual men cannot marry men and heterosexual women cannot marry women.

It appears that everyone DOES have the same rights. So is this really bigotry?

Agree? Disagree? Should the desire of the few create NEW laws? And if it doesn't create new laws is it bigotry? How? (This isn't like slavery as so many people like to strawman the debate. In the issue of slavery, men and women weren't recognized as humans. There is a defining difference between personhood and preference.)
I'm interested in your responses.

On topic though, no it's not the same. Homosexuals aren't allowed to marry the people they are attracted to and wish to marry. Heterosexuals are.

It's pretty simple, the 'traditional' standard of what a marraige is, in this country, is based on our traditional judeo-christian morals. People feel like it s an attack on their religion and beliefs, when really it's not.

Hmm, I understand your point. And I'm all for promoting love, but I wonder if it'd be easier to simply give gay couples the right to get married and everything it entails and just call it something else. That way christian objectors can hang onto the word 'marriage' which they seem to find so precious and gay couples can create families. (Also, why don't christians object to atheists being married?)

My parents are against gay marraige. Their religious beliefs decide their feelings for the topic.

One of my best friends in school confessed to me that he had always been attracted to guys, but he hid it because it wasn't good in his religion. I realized people don't choose to be that way, and it's not my right to infringe on their happiness.

Giving them something else and not calling it marraige is still saying it isn't the same thing. The religious people who object need to just accept that religious belief doesn't and shouldn't drive politics. It's not going to cause them any harm for gays to marry.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/1/2012 10:50:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 10:46:36 PM, Axiom wrote:
At 8/1/2012 10:35:39 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Everyone is discriminated against by someone. For instance, I discriminate against stupid people who think they aren't.

*suspicious voice
Are you inferring something about meeee?

That depends... how smart do you think you are?

j/k :D
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/1/2012 11:00:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Since when is the foundation of our laws and the progress of society dictated by the very people who want to establish a theocracy in a secular nation? Any and all arguments against gay marriage based on religion constitute on an inability to process the founding principles of this country. Whenever somebody says that they don't believe in gay marriage based on their religion, reply by saying that your religion doesn't believe in any Christians existing; make sure to catch their reaction since the logical foundation of the rationale is the same.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/1/2012 11:11:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 11:00:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since when is the foundation of our laws and the progress of society dictated by the very people who want to establish a theocracy in a secular nation? Any and all arguments against gay marriage based on religion constitute on an inability to process the founding principles of this country. Whenever somebody says that they don't believe in gay marriage based on their religion, reply by saying that your religion doesn't believe in any Christians existing; make sure to catch their reaction since the logical foundation of the rationale is the same.

What about non-christian arguments against it that say it is detrimental to the human race? And an evolutionary step backwards. (Using debates such as the lack of reproduction and the apparent prevelance of AIDS amongst homosexuals, etc...etc...)
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/1/2012 11:32:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 11:11:22 PM, Axiom wrote:
At 8/1/2012 11:00:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since when is the foundation of our laws and the progress of society dictated by the very people who want to establish a theocracy in a secular nation? Any and all arguments against gay marriage based on religion constitute on an inability to process the founding principles of this country. Whenever somebody says that they don't believe in gay marriage based on their religion, reply by saying that your religion doesn't believe in any Christians existing; make sure to catch their reaction since the logical foundation of the rationale is the same.

What about non-christian arguments against it that say it is detrimental to the human race? And an evolutionary step backwards. (Using debates such as the lack of reproduction and the apparent prevelance of AIDS amongst homosexuals, etc...etc...)

Lol wut? Evolution has to do with reproduction. Gays can't reproduce hence there is no "step backwards" (what would that be? De-evolving)? Whether you let gays marry or not, AIDS are still going to be prevalent within their community. If you are using that as an argument, then it is for killing the gays- not letting them not marry.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/2/2012 5:37:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 10:37:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/1/2012 10:34:27 PM, Axiom wrote:
This is an interesting rebuttal I heard recently:

Most people love to cry, 'bigotry' 'hate' 'tantamount to racism!' Whenever someone says that gay marriage shouldn't be legalized.

Then your average-gay-rights advocate will say, "Why can't we have the same rights that everyone else does."

But in the end... Don't they? All homosexuals are allowed to be married. Gay men can marry women and lesbian women can marry men. It's the same right that heterosexuals have. Heterosexual men cannot marry men and heterosexual women cannot marry women.

It appears that everyone DOES have the same rights. So is this really bigotry?

Agree? Disagree? Should the desire of the few create NEW laws? And if it doesn't create new laws is it bigotry? How? (This isn't like slavery as so many people like to strawman the debate. In the issue of slavery, men and women weren't recognized as humans. There is a defining difference between personhood and preference.)
I'm interested in your responses.

On topic though, no it's not the same. Homosexuals aren't allowed to marry the people they are attracted to and wish to marry. Heterosexuals are.

It's pretty simple, the 'traditional' standard of what a marraige is, in this country, is based on our traditional judeo-christian morals. People feel like it s an attack on their religion and beliefs, when really it's not.

This.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/2/2012 7:21:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 10:34:27 PM, Axiom wrote:
This is an interesting rebuttal I heard recently:

Most people love to cry, 'bigotry' 'hate' 'tantamount to racism!' Whenever someone says that gay marriage shouldn't be legalized.

Then your average-gay-rights advocate will say, "Why can't we have the same rights that everyone else does."

But in the end... Don't they? All homosexuals are allowed to be married. Gay men can marry women and lesbian women can marry men. It's the same right that heterosexuals have. Heterosexual men cannot marry men and heterosexual women cannot marry women.

It appears that everyone DOES have the same rights. So is this really bigotry?

Yes. Because at the end of the day you are still deciding who can and cannot get married based upon sex (Sexual discrimination).


Agree? Disagree? Should the desire of the few create NEW laws?

Depends. Majority rule but minority rights. In any event the desire to "legalize" same-sex marriage is in light of laws such as DOMA which have criminalized it. The desire is not to create new laws, but to repeal the unethical and unconstitutional laws that already exist.

And if it doesn't create new laws is it bigotry? How? (This isn't like slavery as so many people like to strawman the debate. In the issue of slavery, men and women weren't recognized as humans. There is a defining difference between personhood and preference.)
I'm interested in your responses.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/2/2012 7:35:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/1/2012 10:34:27 PM, Axiom wrote:
This is an interesting rebuttal I heard recently:

Most people love to cry, 'bigotry' 'hate' 'tantamount to racism!' Whenever someone says that gay marriage shouldn't be legalized.

Then your average-gay-rights advocate will say, "Why can't we have the same rights that everyone else does."

But in the end... Don't they? All homosexuals are allowed to be married. Gay men can marry women and lesbian women can marry men. It's the same right that heterosexuals have. Heterosexual men cannot marry men and heterosexual women cannot marry women.

It appears that everyone DOES have the same rights. So is this really bigotry?

Agree? Disagree? Should the desire of the few create NEW laws? And if it doesn't create new laws is it bigotry? How? (This isn't like slavery as so many people like to strawman the debate. In the issue of slavery, men and women weren't recognized as humans. There is a defining difference between personhood and preference.)
I'm interested in your responses.

Completely disagree. Lolol... the discrimintation comes from the fact that homosexuals couples aren't allowed to marry. In other words, that they are able to marry consistent with their sexual preference. It's tantamount to the rights taken from minorities, because there was a time when "interracial" marriages were illegal, too.

I think it's really irritating that some people seem to believe that racism begins and ends with slavery. How ridiculous is that.

You know, sharecroppers came in all shapes, sizes, and colors. It just so happens that some of them were allowed independence after a given number of years (usually 7 or something) with a share of the land.

It's more how people are perceived, how they're singled out, and how they're acknowledged in a given society by those with the most power/influence.
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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8/2/2012 1:17:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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8/2/2012 1:18:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I can then argue, well I'm a homosexual musician and homosexual musicians don't have the same opportunities as homosexual lawyers etc. etc.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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8/2/2012 1:18:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you turn out gay, you're gay. Quit whining?
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts