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10 Reasons I Will Never Vote for Barack Obama

JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.

4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.

5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.

6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.

7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.

8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
slo1
Posts: 4,318
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8/6/2012 9:48:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.

4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.

5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.

6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.

7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.

8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.

1. Indeed.
2. That is a bold statement without a full list. The net may indeed be a positive, but failures such as Viet Nam, Iraq, and plenty of others have sacrificed uncountable lives and fiscal resources with absolutely no return. Being open to understanding when we mettle for no good reason is key to remaining a positive force. One tenet is that we don't need to mettle for oil. Enemies and allies are happy to sell us their oil. Venezuela is the perfect example of that.

3. Agreed.

4. This is an extremely overreaching statement. Capitalism is built on the human trait of greed, which is consistent and dependable. That is why it works so well and is the most efficient economical system. It however fails when there is not proper checks and balances. If one is not going to support government role in providing checks and balances then it is important to put in free market principles.
A. Stop trying to restrict lawsuits. If someone harms someone and is found to blame, they need to get put back to the poor house. This includes revamping business licenses and protections that is afforded company leaders. Changing law to require a plaintiff to pay for legal proceedings should they loose would be enough to stop most frivolousness law suits. Instead these principles and others the Repubs want to protect people who do other people harm by capping lawsuits. Hogwash, either you believe in free market or you don't.

5. I assume you are implying progressive taxation. I'm so tired of hearing all the rhetoric on this that I don't accept any argument of taxation for or against without the individual stating, what they believe to be a fair tax rate and whether they agree with tax activist policies such as giving a write down of income for interest on a home loan. Not to mention, how is today's rates discouraging people from becoming rich. i would assume we would see a decline in the # of rich if it were.

6. True

7. Agreed, too bad less than 10% of healthcare is on a free market where the consumer is provided a competitive market. Unfortunately again the Repubs have no courage to propose a true free market system.

8. Why do we need to be allies with any country in the middle east. Lest someone has religious beliefs tied to the outcome of Israel there is no reason to ally with them that is in our interest. Needless to say, we should ally with the right side and unfortunately neither the Palestinians or Israel is without their b.s.

9. For the most part true, so why support the increased spending of moneys by both the republicans and democrats since Clinton left the office. Both parties increased gov spending above the rate of inflation, with very little to show for it.

10. Agreed freedom of choice is critical. We have given away our freedom in the name of security in unprecedented levels. Bush started it by giving the administration the right to monitor citizens communication with out any judicial oversight. Obama has continued it to the point if the administration (with no oversight) can drop a bomb on you (any citizen) oversees no questions asked.

If you truly cared about freedom you would shun both the republican and democratic parties. I will not go as far as assume you are republican, but if I don't see a 10 reasons you would not vote Romney, I'll assume you are a stooge for the republican party who is very ignorant on the ridiculousness of that party. Plus, I would assume you don't care or know that Romney believes that Jesus came to the United States to preach to the native Americans and that God lives on another planet.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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8/6/2012 9:55:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Romney, I know you want to win the election. But don't you think advertising yourself on DDO is going a little to far.
kfc
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/6/2012 10:01:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 9:55:55 PM, Koopin wrote:
Romney, I know you want to win the election. But don't you think advertising yourself on DDO is going a little to far.

Shhhh....

I'm Mitt Romney

Don't tell anyone.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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8/6/2012 10:11:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 9:48:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.

4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.

5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.

6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.

7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.

8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.

1. Indeed.
2. That is a bold statement without a full list. The net may indeed be a positive, but failures such as Viet Nam, Iraq, and plenty of others have sacrificed uncountable lives and fiscal resources with absolutely no return. Being open to understanding when we mettle for no good reason is key to remaining a positive force. One tenet is that we don't need to mettle for oil. Enemies and allies are happy to sell us their oil. Venezuela is the perfect example of that.

The key phrase is "on net". Although, I do not agree with all of your points (I agree with some).


3. Agreed.

4. This is an extremely overreaching statement. Capitalism is built on the human trait of greed, which is consistent and dependable. That is why it works so well and is the most efficient economical system. It however fails when there is not proper checks and balances. If one is not going to support government role in providing checks and balances then it is important to put in free market principles.

Well, I am not anti government. I am anti big government. The problem right now is excess taxation and regulation.

This is not 1900. In 1900, some new regulation was warranted. But, this is 2012, we are overregulated.

A. Stop trying to restrict lawsuits. If someone harms someone and is found to blame, they need to get put back to the poor house. This includes revamping business licenses and protections that is afforded company leaders. Changing law to require a plaintiff to pay for legal proceedings should they loose would be enough to stop most frivolousness law suits. Instead these principles and others the Repubs want to protect people who do other people harm by capping lawsuits. Hogwash, either you believe in free market or you don't.

The fact is that excessive litigation is a huge drag on our economy, no matter how you slice it. Capping would be a positive step.


5. I assume you are implying progressive taxation. I'm so tired of hearing all the rhetoric on this that I don't accept any argument of taxation for or against without the individual stating, what they believe to be a fair tax rate and whether they agree with tax activist policies such as giving a write down of income for interest on a home loan. Not to mention, how is today's rates discouraging people from becoming rich. i would assume we would see a decline in the # of rich if it were.

Um, there is a ton of evidence on how high tax rates affect decisions. And, the reality is, supported universally among the empirical evidence, that high tax rates discourage earning income, especially for wealthy people.

The degree to which this is true, however, is a topic of debate.


6. True

7. Agreed, too bad less than 10% of healthcare is on a free market where the consumer is provided a competitive market. Unfortunately again the Repubs have no courage to propose a true free market system.

Agreed. Although, I don't think you give Republicans enough credit.


8. Why do we need to be allies with any country in the middle east. Lest someone has religious beliefs tied to the outcome of Israel there is no reason to ally with them that is in our interest. Needless to say, we should ally with the right side and unfortunately neither the Palestinians or Israel is without their b.s.

Well, Israel is basically a free country with western values. The same is not true of Palestine.


9. For the most part true, so why support the increased spending of moneys by both the republicans and democrats since Clinton left the office. Both parties increased gov spending above the rate of inflation, with very little to show for it.

True, but Obama did it much more than Bush.


10. Agreed freedom of choice is critical. We have given away our freedom in the name of security in unprecedented levels. Bush started it by giving the administration the right to monitor citizens communication with out any judicial oversight. Obama has continued it to the point if the administration (with no oversight) can drop a bomb on you (any citizen) oversees no questions asked.

By big issue is Obama's lack of regard for economic freedom.


If you truly cared about freedom you would shun both the republican and democratic parties. I will not go as far as assume you are republican, but if I don't see a 10 reasons you would not vote Romney, I'll assume you are a stooge for the republican party who is very ignorant on the ridiculousness of that party. Plus, I would assume you don't care or know that Romney believes that Jesus came to the United States to preach to the native Americans and that God lives on another planet.

I am a Republican, and I do plan on supporting Romney. And, no, I don't care about Romney's religion.

It is true that not all Republicans have been great. But, don't forget, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were both members of either the Republican Party or the British version of the Republican Party (the Conservative Party). Both of these did a lot of good.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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8/6/2012 10:12:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 9:55:55 PM, Koopin wrote:
Romney, I know you want to win the election. But don't you think advertising yourself on DDO is going a little to far.

Hey, it is free advertising. I can't pass that up.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
Lordknukle
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8/6/2012 10:35:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My stupidity sensors get aroused when people say capitalism is built on greed, instead of self-interest.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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8/6/2012 10:43:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Some of these are flat out incorrect, and some of these are negated by the fact that you enthusiastically support and would vote for Mitt Romney.

For examples, here are the flat out inaccuracies:

I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

This could not be further from the truth. In the last half century, the U.S. has acted totally selfishly, in pursuit of global hegemony, power, and domination. Sometimes this may help some countries, often and most times it doesn't, but the post WW2 U.S.A. doesn't care about the effects on the countries it f*cks over to pursue its strategic and military dominance of the world.

Consider the millions dead in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan (for starters) as a result of U.S. intervention, far outweighing any lives improved or saved... Consider the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, consider American support for Saddam during his most violent massacres (gassing of the Kurds), consider the Contras - a terrorist organization supported by Reagan, consider the violent overthrow of the democratically-elected leader of Chile, consider the hundreds of thousands of murdered and oppressed Palestinians, of course funded by the American taxpayer... and so on and so forth.

The U.S. government is guilty of the worst, most violent, most destructive kinds of terrorism. It is still currently routinely engaging in such practices.

I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

Okay, first of all, you clearly know nothing about Palestinians, because there aren't various Palestinian countries. There are Arab countries. Palestine used to be a place in the Arab world; not all Arabs are Palestinians.

Furthermore, per international law, Israel is also guilty of the worst kinds of war crimes and occupations of land and, yes, terrorism. This too is not opinion, but the reflection of a broad international consensus, which you can observe in any U.N. vote regarding Israel where at least 150-170 countries will vote to condemn Israel and/or support the Palestinians on an issue, and a handful of countries will vote against it. Usually just America and Israel and maybe 1 or 2 other countries with little to no relevance.

Supporting Israel seriously isolates us in the international community, prevents us from ever having peace with the Arab world at all, makes us look like hypocrites, and invites hostility and violence against us. In fact, one of the reasons Bin Laden offered for the 9/11 attacks was consistent American support of Israel's crimes against the Palestinians. Supporting Israel the way America does makes America less, not more, safe. It certainly erodes American credibility around the world, since again, almost everyone aside from America and Israel is agreed on the nature of Israeli war crimes and occupation against Palestinians (and other countries like Lebanon).

Now here are the things you said which should apply as equally to Mitt Romney as they do to Barack Obama:

I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

Then Mitt Romney's economic platform should look just like a libertarian's like Ron Paul or Gary Johnson. Yet, Mitt Romney's economic platform includes high taxes, massive debt increases, massive government spending, even massively increased government spending in the military. How exactly does Mitt Romney, who you often praise and defend on these forums, support free enterprise?

I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

Ya, so by this logic you should be voting for neither Obama nor Romney, as neither have serious plans to deal with the debt, and both call for massively increasing it during their terms - the only debate is on how much to increase it. Romney wants to increase the national debt less than Obama does. These statements are literally true, so don't bother rejecting them - Romney has no real plan to lower the national debt.

I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns

Aside from being a totally awful reason to not vote for Barack Obama - you'd think a reason would have to be something about Obama's policies being bad, not Mitt Romney's tax returns being irrelevant - note the blatant hypocrisy of the Republicans freaking out about Obama's birth certificate and college transcript, for examples. How do you feel about Republicans pressing Obama to release his birth certificate and college grades? I bet you weren't opposed to the Republican efforts to get him to release these things. However, when the pressure is put instead on the candidate from the party you support, you quickly deem such things as making sure a candidate who talks about how much he loves his country and who would force others with much less money than he has to pay higher taxes than they do now, actually has paid their taxes. If there is some tax evasion or inconsistency in Romney's record, surely you can imagine why this would be relevant to the people he is calling for to pay higher taxes while taxes are slashed for wealthy businessmen. It's called hypocrisy.
jat93
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8/6/2012 10:49:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
fix'd - meant to say "as totally irrelevant" where I had before said "actually has paid their taxes"

I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns

Aside from being a totally awful reason to not vote for Barack Obama - you'd think a reason would have to be something about Obama's policies being bad, not Mitt Romney's tax returns being irrelevant - note the blatant hypocrisy of the Republicans freaking out about Obama's birth certificate and college transcript, for examples. How do you feel about Republicans pressing Obama to release his birth certificate and college grades? I bet you weren't opposed to the Republican efforts to get him to release these things. However, when the pressure is put instead on the candidate from the party you support, you quickly deem such things as making sure a candidate who talks about how much he loves his country and who would force others with much less money than he has to pay higher taxes than they do now, as totally irrelevant. If there is some tax evasion or inconsistency in Romney's record, surely you can imagine why this would be relevant to the people he is calling for to pay higher taxes while taxes are slashed for wealthy businessmen. It's called hypocrisy.
JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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8/6/2012 11:03:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 10:43:32 PM, jat93 wrote:
Some of these are flat out incorrect, and some of these are negated by the fact that you enthusiastically support and would vote for Mitt Romney.

For examples, here are the flat out inaccuracies:

I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

This could not be further from the truth. In the last half century, the U.S. has acted totally selfishly, in pursuit of global hegemony, power, and domination. Sometimes this may help some countries, often and most times it doesn't, but the post WW2 U.S.A. doesn't care about the effects on the countries it f*cks over to pursue its strategic and military dominance of the world.

Consider the millions dead in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan (for starters) as a result of U.S. intervention, far outweighing any lives improved or saved... Consider the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, consider American support for Saddam during his most violent massacres (gassing of the Kurds), consider the Contras - a terrorist organization supported by Reagan, consider the violent overthrow of the democratically-elected leader of Chile, consider the hundreds of thousands of murdered and oppressed Palestinians, of course funded by the American taxpayer... and so on and so forth.

The U.S. government is guilty of the worst, most violent, most destructive kinds of terrorism. It is still currently routinely engaging in such practices.

You seem to forget which nation was key to defeating fascism and communism.

I don't deny that we have been imperfect, but we have consistently stood for the right values, that is western values of economic freedom, political freedom, and Religious freedom.

As far as Chile goes, don't forget that the economic reforms that General Pinochet initiated are the reason Chile is far more prosperous than other Latin American countries today.

I have no problem with using our power to spread the western value system and economic model, which works quite well.


I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

Okay, first of all, you clearly know nothing about Palestinians, because there aren't various Palestinian countries. There are Arab countries. Palestine used to be a place in the Arab world; not all Arabs are Palestinians.

Furthermore, per international law, Israel is also guilty of the worst kinds of war crimes and occupations of land and, yes, terrorism. This too is not opinion, but the reflection of a broad international consensus, which you can observe in any U.N. vote regarding Israel where at least 150-170 countries will vote to condemn Israel and/or support the Palestinians on an issue, and a handful of countries will vote against it. Usually just America and Israel and maybe 1 or 2 other countries with little to no relevance.

Supporting Israel seriously isolates us in the international community, prevents us from ever having peace with the Arab world at all, makes us look like hypocrites, and invites hostility and violence against us. In fact, one of the reasons Bin Laden offered for the 9/11 attacks was consistent American support of Israel's crimes against the Palestinians. Supporting Israel the way America does makes America less, not more, safe. It certainly erodes American credibility around the world, since again, almost everyone aside from America and Israel is agreed on the nature of Israeli war crimes and occupation against Palestinians (and other countries like Lebanon).

Um, let's be clear here. The reason, in my view, that we should support Israel is that Israel generally believes in the same western values that we believe in. Israel, basically, has a free economy with basic rights for its people.

That is better than the impoverished Palestinians. And, frankly, we are better off having a strong ally in the middle east that shares our values than a region that is totally hostile to the western world.


Now here are the things you said which should apply as equally to Mitt Romney as they do to Barack Obama:

I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

Then Mitt Romney's economic platform should look just like a libertarian's like Ron Paul or Gary Johnson. Yet, Mitt Romney's economic platform includes high taxes, massive debt increases, massive government spending, even massively increased government spending in the military. How exactly does Mitt Romney, who you often praise and defend on these forums, support free enterprise?

Well, because Mitt Romney has a realistic plan to more our nation towards free enterprise that actually has a chance of being implemented. Gary Johnson does not.

In fact, I don't believe he is even registering at 5% of the vote.


I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

Ya, so by this logic you should be voting for neither Obama nor Romney, as neither have serious plans to deal with the debt, and both call for massively increasing it during their terms - the only debate is on how much to increase it. Romney wants to increase the national debt less than Obama does. These statements are literally true, so don't bother rejecting them - Romney has no real plan to lower the national debt.

Um, actually, through entitlement reform and spending cuts as well as economic growth, Romney WILL reduce the debt.


I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns

Aside from being a totally awful reason to not vote for Barack Obama - you'd think a reason would have to be something about Obama's policies being bad, not Mitt Romney's tax returns being irrelevant - note the blatant hypocrisy of the Republicans freaking out about Obama's birth certificate and college transcript, for examples. How do you feel about Republicans pressing Obama to release his birth certificate and college grades? I bet you weren't opposed to the Republican efforts to get him to release these things. However, when the pressure is put instead on the candidate from the party you support, you quickly deem such things as making sure a candidate who talks about how much he loves his country and who would force others with much less money than he has to pay higher taxes than they do now, actually has paid their taxes. If there is some tax evasion or inconsistency in Romney's record, surely you can imagine why this would be relevant to the people he is calling for to pay higher taxes while taxes are slashed for wealthy businessmen. It's called hypocrisy.

One of the great myths is that prominent, mainstream Republicans politicans were all calling on Obama to realease his birth certificates.

Did Mitt Romney EVER call on Obama to release his birth certificates or transcript?

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, the answer is no. He did not. And, neither did other leading Republicans.

The only people who did were fringe folks and people deep in the tea party.

But, in this case, Obama himself has been running ads about this absurdity.

And, to be clear, Romney's tax returns are his business, not America's. I don't care what office he is running for.

And, by the way, this whole Mccarthyite tactic of making an accusation and then proclaiming the person they are accusing of being guilty until proven innocent is insane.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
imabench
Posts: 21,210
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8/6/2012 11:14:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

Im sorry, where does it say in Barack Obama's platform that he wants to dismantle every single thing about free enterprise in the United States? Was it before or after he decided to cut taxes for small businesses?

2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

People do tend to think that when they dont take into account the fact that we stole this country from the native Americans, made the chinese build it, forced the blacks to maintain it, and blame the mexicans for when the economy isnt great...... Back to the point though Im guessing you dont have evidence saying Obama thinks America is evil, those statements are usually said by the "president" of Iran..... not Obama

3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.

This is too vague for me to defend so if you could please point out why you think Obama is doing something wrong and why Mitt the Twit would do any better, then please, make your case

4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.

Because cutting taxes 18 times and extending the bush tax cuts counts as raising taxes..... Which fox news outlet do you gather your information from?

5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.

Im guessing that this refers to Obama wanting to raise taxes on the rich.... tell me how is that better than Mitt's tax plan which raises taxes on just about everybody BUT the rich? If you believe in pursuing policies meant to sh*t on those who are not as well off as the fabulously rich while at the same time sparing the fabulously rich from higher taxes, then vote for Mitt

6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.

Yes, like Job creation, which has been in the positive digits now for how many months in a row now? 15? (it is 15)

7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.

Well then you probably are out of luck on this one.... Obamacare is literally based off of what Romney implemented in Massachusetts so by your logic neither candidate would win this point

8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

And where was it said that Obama wants to have nothing to do with Israel?

9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

Well then you should stick with Obama on this one. You see Republicans have a remarkable tendency to complain about the national debt all the time when they are not in power, but when they ARE in power they suddenly dont give two sh*ts about it. You dont remember Republicans b*tching about how Reagan added 2 trillion to the debt now do you?

10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.

This one has a nice strong scent of opinion too, but ill ignore it for the sake of the argument. If you could explain how our economic situation is the result of us not believing in God hard enough and NOT how the dangerous moves and investments done by banks throughout the world to exploit the financial system for massive profits that eventually caused the financial meltdown that dragged us into this mess, then Id LOVE to here your argument....
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

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Contra
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8/6/2012 11:16:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Great counters imabench. Although it is not 15 months, it is 29.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
imabench
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8/6/2012 11:26:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:16:32 PM, Contra wrote:
Great counters imabench. Although it is not 15 months, it is 29.

f*ck i was looking at one for another country >.<
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

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Apollo.11
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8/7/2012 12:03:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.
So does BO.
2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.
So does BO.

3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.
So does BO.

4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.
But Obama has only CUT taxes significantly. Regulations I'll give you.

5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.
But Obama's tax policy plans 1) aren't even law 2) don't punishing success. He EXTENDED the BTC's.

6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.
So does he.

7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.
Cool. Then keep your free market plan. Obamacare doesn't stop you.

8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.
*long sigh*
Enough with the Palestinian-bashing. And how exactly does he think Pelastine is better?

I don't believe that Palestinian culture is the main factor in poverty or that Israeli's are superior.

9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.
How is this even a moral issue? And how does it relate to BO?

10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.
I'm glad Obama does believe this...
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OberHerr
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8/7/2012 2:08:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ah, Apollo, our native Obambi worshiper.
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YYW
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8/7/2012 3:13:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that. He is a capitalist, but also a Keynesian.

2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that too. The only difference is that Barack Obama doesn't feel it necessary to rub the rest of the world's nose in their inferiority. God bless America, btw.

3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that also. Hence why the current administration continues to aggressively fight the war on terror, promote peace and democracy in the world, and do what is right no matter what. Obama has a different strategy for going about it than, say, Bush did.... but the point remains.

4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that to an extent, but Barack Obama would probably mention that business and free enterprise are not the only things America stands for.

5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure. If you sat down and had a beer with him, he would explain to you that raising the tax rates for high earners isn't a punishment, but a pragmatic solution to an ongoing national fiscal crisis. He would probably mention that he isn't going to tax anyone into oblivion, because that would be stupid AND he would be sure to note that allowing the 2001 Bush Tax Cuts to expire wasn't a tax raise, but a return to the decade-earlier status quo. Since he is an honest guy, if you asked him why he cares so much about tax policy, he would probably say that he wished that the political strategists of the right wing would give the class warfare rhetoric a rest. Obama doesn't hate the rich. (He might joke that his biggest donors are among the wealthiest in the world!) But he does hate it when people misrepresent his actions, especially when they will benefit the overwhelming majority of the American people.

6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure. Obama is a professor at heart and would love nothing more than to have a national conversation with the American people to explain to them where he stands on the issues, but he is in a horrific prisoners dilemma (in terms of political strategy). His political strategists (and the PACs that support him) have to meet the GOP on the level they fight, but to do that they have to run negative ads that are stupid enough for the American people to understand them. He would LOVE to have an intelligent debate about the issues, rather than assail Romney's record at Bain Capital or mislead people. The problem is the American voter's fundamental incompetence, paired with their insatiable gullibility. (The GOP would prefer not to fight in the gutter too, btw. Lee Atwater is dead. No one mourns his absence. One day, perhaps, politicians will campaign like gentlemen again.)

7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure, but the free market isn't free, or really even a market as it stands now. It's a cartel ran by insurance industries that produces a tremendous deal of inefficiency. Obamacare is a means to curtail waste. It's complicated, which is the reason that it seems daunting to -gullible and stupid- voters, but it is not socialized medicine. Btw. Obamacare was developed by a conservative think tank in the 1990s. Think about that.

8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that too, but again, Obama doesn't feel the need to remind the Palestinian people of how awful they are (at least not flagrantly). The Obama administration invaded Palestine to kill Bin Laden, without the sanction of the Palestinian government. He was quick about it, but he still, fundamentally, demonstrated how much respect he has for the "nation" of Palestine. Has he invaded Israel? Nope. Will he ever? Nope. Just because he doesn't kiss Ben Netanyahu on the cheek doesn't mean that the president is an enemy of Israel. The president would encourage you to think strategically, here. He is trying to balance the good will of the rest of the world so that when he does things like invade foreign soil and kill people, he can get away with it...

9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

You and Barack Obama would agree that shafting our nation's children in debt for the expenditure of today is immoral, but he would remind you that if deficit spending didn't work, then our GDP wouldn't have steadily expanded from 2008-2012.

10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that without doubt or question.

---

It seems that you and the president have a lot in common. Perhaps you should vote for him. Although Mitt Romney would agree in virtually all of those areas too... to be fair.
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JamesMadison
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8/7/2012 3:27:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:14:41 PM, imabench wrote:
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

Im sorry, where does it say in Barack Obama's platform that he wants to dismantle every single thing about free enterprise in the United States? Was it before or after he decided to cut taxes for small businesses?

Incorrect. Obama has given some businesses subsidies, like any anti free market guy would. However, he does it through the tax code and thus disguises them as tax credits. There have been no real tax cuts, but there have been real tax increases.


2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

People do tend to think that when they dont take into account the fact that we stole this country from the native Americans, made the chinese build it, forced the blacks to maintain it, and blame the mexicans for when the economy isnt great...... Back to the point though Im guessing you dont have evidence saying Obama thinks America is evil, those statements are usually said by the "president" of Iran..... not Obama

Um, I think there is solid evidence, based on his statements and life experiences, that Barack Obama does not agree with me on this point.


3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.

This is too vague for me to defend so if you could please point out why you think Obama is doing something wrong and why Mitt the Twit would do any better, then please, make your case

Okay.


4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.

Because cutting taxes 18 times and extending the bush tax cuts counts as raising taxes..... Which fox news outlet do you gather your information from?

Please, spare me left wing buzzwords and generic comment about fox news.

And, as I explained above, the tax cuts are gimmicks. Not really tax cuts. And, he raised taxes by $500 Billion by virtue of Obamacare... and of course he only extended the Bush tax cuts temporarily because he was forced to... he called it a "hostage situation".


5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.

Im guessing that this refers to Obama wanting to raise taxes on the rich.... tell me how is that better than Mitt's tax plan which raises taxes on just about everybody BUT the rich? If you believe in pursuing policies meant to sh*t on those who are not as well off as the fabulously rich while at the same time sparing the fabulously rich from higher taxes, then vote for Mitt

Again, myth.

Romney is proposing tax cuts on everyone. And, citing a discredited study from a former Obama advisor does not change that.


6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.

Yes, like Job creation, which has been in the positive digits now for how many months in a row now? 15? (it is 15)

Again, get the facts straight.

Jobs are always growing. We even gained jobs under Bush Jr...

What matters is the speed of job growth... and we are not doing well in that count.

Wait, let me amend that earlier statement, Obama is actually the first president since Hoover to have a net job loss.


7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.

Well then you probably are out of luck on this one.... Obamacare is literally based off of what Romney implemented in Massachusetts so by your logic neither candidate would win this point

Two things.

1.) There are differences between Romneycare and Obamacare.

2.) Perhaps more importantly, regardless of Romneycare, Romney will repeal Obamacare.


8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

And where was it said that Obama wants to have nothing to do with Israel?

Well, it's hard to have much to do with a place that you never visit.


9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

Well then you should stick with Obama on this one. You see Republicans have a remarkable tendency to complain about the national debt all the time when they are not in power, but when they ARE in power they suddenly dont give two sh*ts about it. You dont remember Republicans b*tching about how Reagan added 2 trillion to the debt now do you?

Again, the debt increase under Obama eclipses Reagan and the Bushes.

Imagine your on a road with a 55 mph speed limit. You cant justify going 120 mph by saying that the last guy was going 65 mph... its not the same.


10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.

This one has a nice strong scent of opinion too, but ill ignore it for the sake of the argument. If you could explain how our economic situation is the result of us not believing in God hard enough and NOT how the dangerous moves and investments done by banks throughout the world to exploit the financial system for massive profits that eventually caused the financial meltdown that dragged us into this mess, then Id LOVE to here your argument....

We have more problems than our current economic mess.

But, government had more to do with the crisis than the free market did.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
JamesMadison
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8/7/2012 3:34:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 12:03:15 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.
So does BO.

No sir. He does not.

2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.
So does BO.

Again, I know your guy better than you do.


3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.
So does BO.

Nope. Wrong again.


4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.
But Obama has only CUT taxes significantly. Regulations I'll give you.

I have explained this before. Sending out checks in the mail and calling them tax cuts are NOT tax cuts.

Tax cuts are when you reduce marginal tax rates. Obama has only been increasing those.


5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.
But Obama's tax policy plans 1) aren't even law 2) don't punishing success. He EXTENDED the BTC's.

1.) He wants them to be

2.) They do

And, he was FORCED to.


6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.
So does he.

Then why is he spending millions of $ running ads about this.

Shameful and embarassing for a president if you ask me.


7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.
Cool. Then keep your free market plan. Obamacare doesn't stop you.

Yes, yes it does.

In fact, many people will lose their covergae as a result of Obamacare. It was one of the biggest lies of Health Care reform when BO said this wouldnt happen.


8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.
*long sigh*
Enough with the Palestinian-bashing. And how exactly does he think Pelastine is better?

Well, he hasn't even visited Israel.


I don't believe that Palestinian culture is the main factor in poverty or that Israeli's are superior.

Well, then you are denying reality. The economically free and, yes, culturally superior Israel deserves credit.


9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.
How is this even a moral issue? And how does it relate to BO?

Well, which president has added more debt than any other president in history?

It's BO... and blaming Bush doesn't change that.


10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.
I'm glad Obama does believe this...

Nope, he doesn't.

In fact, you need to read up on Obama and what he has done.

He doesn't believe in free enterprise... he has done everything in his power to diminish it.

Stop pretending that this guy is some moderate. He is as far left as you can get. There is a moderate in this race... and his name is Mitt Romney.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
YYW
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8/7/2012 3:45:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 3:13:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
1.) I believe that free enterprise is the best economic system conceived by man.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that. He is a capitalist, but also a Keynesian.

2.) I believe that the United States of America has, on net, been a great force of good in the world.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that too. The only difference is that Barack Obama doesn't feel it necessary to rub the rest of the world's nose in their inferiority. God bless America, btw.

3.) I believe, as Bill Clinton said, that nothing that is wrong with America cannot be fixed by what is right with America.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that also. Hence why the current administration continues to aggressively fight the war on terror, promote peace and democracy in the world, and do what is right no matter what. Obama has a different strategy for going about it than, say, Bush did.... but the point remains.

4.) I believe that putting more taxes and regulations on businesses will damage the economy and reduce job growth.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that to an extent, but Barack Obama would probably mention that business and free enterprise are not the only things America stands for.

5.) I believe that pursuing policies meant to punish success will have the effect of reducing success.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure. If you sat down and had a beer with him, he would explain to you that raising the tax rates for high earners isn't a punishment, but a pragmatic solution to an ongoing national fiscal crisis. He would probably mention that he isn't going to tax anyone into oblivion, because that would be stupid AND he would be sure to note that allowing the 2001 Bush Tax Cuts to expire wasn't a tax raise, but a return to the decade-earlier status quo. Since he is an honest guy, if you asked him why he cares so much about tax policy, he would probably say that he wished that the political strategists of the right wing would give the class warfare rhetoric a rest. Obama doesn't hate the rich. (He might joke that his biggest donors are among the wealthiest in the world!) But he does hate it when people misrepresent his actions, especially when they will benefit the overwhelming majority of the American people.

6.) I believe we have bigger things to worry about than Mitt Romney's tax returns.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure. Obama is a professor at heart and would love nothing more than to have a national conversation with the American people to explain to them where he stands on the issues, but he is in a horrific prisoners dilemma (in terms of political strategy). His political strategists (and the PACs that support him) have to meet the GOP on the level they fight, but to do that they have to run negative ads that are stupid enough for the American people to understand them. He would LOVE to have an intelligent debate about the issues, rather than assail Romney's record at Bain Capital or mislead people. The problem is the American voter's fundamental incompetence, paired with their insatiable gullibility. (The GOP would prefer not to fight in the gutter too, btw. Lee Atwater is dead. No one mourns his absence. One day, perhaps, politicians will campaign like gentlemen again.)

7.) I believe bureacrats could never do a better job running health care than could individuals on a free market.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure, but the free market isn't free, or really even a market as it stands now. It's a cartel ran by insurance industries that produces a tremendous deal of inefficiency. Obamacare is a means to curtail waste. It's complicated, which is the reason that it seems daunting to -gullible and stupid- voters, but it is not socialized medicine. Btw. Obamacare was developed by a conservative think tank in the 1990s. Think about that.

8.) I believe that Israel, with women's rights, a free economy, and democratic system, is a more important ally than the various Palestian countries that have none of these things.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that too, but again, Obama doesn't feel the need to remind the Palestinian people of how awful they are (at least not flagrantly). The Obama administration invaded Palestine to kill Bin Laden, without the sanction of the Palestinian government. He was quick about it, but he still, fundamentally, demonstrated how much respect he has for the "nation" of Palestine. Has he invaded Israel? Nope. Will he ever? Nope. Just because he doesn't kiss Ben Netanyahu on the cheek doesn't mean that the president is an enemy of Israel. The president would encourage you to think strategically, here. He is trying to balance the good will of the rest of the world so that when he does things like invade foreign soil and kill people, he can get away with it...

9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

You and Barack Obama would agree that shafting our nation's children in debt for the expenditure of today is immoral, but he would remind you that if deficit spending didn't work, then our GDP wouldn't have steadily expanded from 2008-2012.

10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that without doubt or question.

---


It seems that you and the president have a lot in common. Perhaps you should vote for him. Although Mitt Romney would agree in virtually all of those areas too... to be fair.

Whoops! a typeo on my part. Obama invaded Pakistan (NOT Palestine) to kill Bin Laden. Silly me. The point remains, however. Just because Obama doesn't snog Benny Netanyahu doesn't mean that Obama hates Israel.
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JamesMadison
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8/7/2012 3:50:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 3:13:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/6/2012 9:06:14 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
You and Barack Obama would agree on that. He is a capitalist, but also a Keynesian.

Capitalists don't constantly down people that are successful.

Capitalists don't advocate single payer and implement a plan that is as close to single payer as they could pass (Obamacare isn't single payer, but the only reason it isnt is because he couldnt pass that).

Capitalists don't propose raising marginal tax rates on business, capital, and labor dramatically.

Capitalists don't want to impose unions on workers.

Capitalists don't regulate everything they see.

Obama does all those things.


You and Barack Obama would agree on that too. The only difference is that Barack Obama doesn't feel it necessary to rub the rest of the world's nose in their inferiority. God bless America, btw.

No, we don't.




You and Barack Obama would agree on that also. Hence why the current administration continues to aggressively fight the war on terror, promote peace and democracy in the world, and do what is right no matter what. Obama has a different strategy for going about it than, say, Bush did.... but the point remains.

Nope.




You and Barack Obama would agree on that to an extent, but Barack Obama would probably mention that business and free enterprise are not the only things America stands for.

Um, don't even try to say that Obama agrees with this. Please, you libs make me laugh.



You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure. If you sat down and had a beer with him, he would explain to you that raising the tax rates for high earners isn't a punishment, but a pragmatic solution to an ongoing national fiscal crisis. He would probably mention that he isn't going to tax anyone into oblivion, because that would be stupid AND he would be sure to note that allowing the 2001 Bush Tax Cuts to expire wasn't a tax raise, but a return to the decade-earlier status quo. Since he is an honest guy, if you asked him why he cares so much about tax policy, he would probably say that he wished that the political strategists of the right wing would give the class warfare rhetoric a rest. Obama doesn't hate the rich. (He might joke that his biggest donors are among the wealthiest in the world!) But he does hate it when people misrepresent his actions, especially when they will benefit the overwhelming majority of the American people.

No, if I sat down with BO. I would ask him why he is proposing raising tax rates on business and capital when all the compelling evidence shows that that would hurt growth and hurt working families. I would ask him why he is putting so much energy into a policy that would raise so little revenue. I would ask why he is making the misleading comparison of the 1990s and 2000s to support this stupid policy.

He would then explain to me that he wants to raise taxes "for purposes of fairness" and that is okay because business owners "didn't build that". These are both things he actually has said and believes... and no, they were not taken out of context. The fact is that he does dislike success in the private sector.

So, to summarize, this is one area where we do NOT agree.



You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure. Obama is a professor at heart and would love nothing more than to have a national conversation with the American people to explain to them where he stands on the issues, but he is in a horrific prisoners dilemma (in terms of political strategy). His political strategists (and the PACs that support him) have to meet the GOP on the level they fight, but to do that they have to run negative ads that are stupid enough for the American people to understand them. He would LOVE to have an intelligent debate about the issues, rather than assail Romney's record at Bain Capital or mislead people. The problem is the American voter's fundamental incompetence, paired with their insatiable gullibility. (The GOP would prefer not to fight in the gutter too, btw. Lee Atwater is dead. No one mourns his absence. One day, perhaps, politicians will campaign like gentlemen again.)

You might be right about that. But, this is the campaign he is running and he is choosing to run it this way.

BTW, if you go to a Romney rally you see actual proposals and vision, not just attacks on the "rich" and talk about tax returns.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that for sure, but the free market isn't free, or really even a market as it stands now. It's a cartel ran by insurance industries that produces a tremendous deal of inefficiency. Obamacare is a means to curtail waste. It's complicated, which is the reason that it seems daunting to -gullible and stupid- voters, but it is not socialized medicine. Btw. Obamacare was developed by a conservative think tank in the 1990s. Think about that.

I can guarantee we would not agree on this. In fact, Obama has been an advocate of single payer in the past, which means no free market.

Obamacare is a big step in taht direction. It may not be socialized medicine, but it's certainly a big step in that direction.

And, btw, if you can find me the conservative think tank that proposed employer mandates, a medicaid expansion, comprehensive benefits requirement, and a big tax increase, then you have found something that does not exist.

THe only thing that conservatives used to advocate was the individual mandate. There is ALOT more to Obamacare than that... none of it conservative




You and Barack Obama would agree on that too, but again, Obama doesn't feel the need to remind the Palestinian people of how awful they are (at least not flagrantly). The Obama administration invaded Palestine to kill Bin Laden, without the sanction of the Palestinian government. He was quick about it, but he still, fundamentally, demonstrated how much respect he has for the "nation" of Palestine. Has he invaded Israel? Nope. Will he ever? Nope. Just because he doesn't kiss Ben Netanyahu on the cheek doesn't mean that the president is an enemy of Israel. The president would encourage you to think strategically, here. He is trying to balance the good will of the rest of the world so that when he does things like invade foreign soil and kill people, he can get away with it...

We need to do more than "not be an enemy" to Israel. Obama has not even visited Israel.


9.) I believe that putting more debt on our nation's children is not only a fiscal failure but also a moral failure.

You and Barack Obama would agree that shafting our nation's children in debt for the expenditure of today is immoral, but he would remind you that if deficit spending didn't work, then our GDP wouldn't have steadily expanded from 2008-2012.

I would respond by pointing out that there are numerous examples of countries that have actually improved their economies by cutting spendng. These include the baltic countries, Germany, Sweden, among others.

The supposed austerity that failed was all in the form of tax hikes. I would also remind him that all the academic research shows a huge negative correlation between government spenidng and growth...


10.) I believe that most of our problems are the result of too much deviation of traditional American principles, principles like freedom to choose, hard work, a strong work ethic, and a belief in God, and not as a result of these principles.

You and Barack Obama would agree on that without doubt or question.

Then why is he diminishing our free economic system?


---


It seems that you and the president have a lot in common. Perhaps you should vote for him. Although Mitt Romney would agree in virtually all of those areas too... to be fair.

Um, no.

BO does not believe in free enterprise. He d
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
Microsuck
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8/7/2012 3:51:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Could not agree more. As to your comments on taxes, no nation in earth's history has ever taxed itself into prosperity.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
JamesMadison
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8/7/2012 3:56:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
YYW,

I'm sorry if I came off at all rude in my comments. I am usually careful about that.

Although, I will say that it is a pet peeve of mine when people tell me that Obama really does believe in free enterprise or really does like business a lot or that he is a moderate. I understand a lot of people feel this way, but it seems very silly to me. And, it does frustrate me.

But, you seem like a smart, nice guy. Not a lot of those on DDO or the world in general.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
YYW
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8/7/2012 4:06:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 3:50:23 AM, JamesMadison wrote:

Ignorant conservatives who function on online forums as pseudo-intelectual mouthpieces of prime-time pundits make me laugh. If you knew your sh!t that would be one thing. You don't. If you want to debate me on anything you said about Obama, feel free.

And btw, I'm not a liberal. (Hint: I'm not a conservative either.) I'm apathetic. But I can't stand to see the ignorant mudslinging from either side. American politics should be about challenging ideas, not vitriol.

Both parties basically believe in the same thing, but American politics operate on the basis of smoke in mirrors and deception. When I can see the rhetoric of Krauthammer or Sean Hannity permeating into online forums, that tells me two things:

1. People are stupid and gullible.
2. People don't know what they are talking about.

That is not to hate on Krauthammer, btw. He is a brilliant fellow (see his treatise on democratic realism, if you ever get the chance... totally worth reading).

When I taught a political science class a year ago, the lions share of the students I worked with thought basically the same as you do: they didn't. They listened to others who didn't know what they were talking about. Words like "liberal" and "conservative" believe it or not actually do have a meaning. They do not mean "republican" or "democrat" FYI.
Tsar of DDO
JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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8/7/2012 4:16:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 4:06:30 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/7/2012 3:50:23 AM, JamesMadison wrote:

Ignorant conservatives who function on online forums as pseudo-intelectual mouthpieces of prime-time pundits make me laugh. If you knew your sh!t that would be one thing. You don't. If you want to debate me on anything you said about Obama, feel free.

And btw, I'm not a liberal. (Hint: I'm not a conservative either.) I'm apathetic. But I can't stand to see the ignorant mudslinging from either side. American politics should be about challenging ideas, not vitriol.

Both parties basically believe in the same thing, but American politics operate on the basis of smoke in mirrors and deception. When I can see the rhetoric of Krauthammer or Sean Hannity permeating into online forums, that tells me two things:

1. People are stupid and gullible.
2. People don't know what they are talking about.

That is not to hate on Krauthammer, btw. He is a brilliant fellow (see his treatise on democratic realism, if you ever get the chance... totally worth reading).

When I taught a political science class a year ago, the lions share of the students I worked with thought basically the same as you do: they didn't. They listened to others who didn't know what they were talking about. Words like "liberal" and "conservative" believe it or not actually do have a meaning. They do not mean "republican" or "democrat" FYI.

I apologized to you above. I wish you had read that apology. But, judging by this comment, it seems that my apology may have been premature.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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8/7/2012 4:26:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 4:16:27 AM, JamesMadison wrote:
At 8/7/2012 4:06:30 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/7/2012 3:50:23 AM, JamesMadison wrote:

Ignorant conservatives who function on online forums as pseudo-intelectual mouthpieces of prime-time pundits make me laugh. If you knew your sh!t that would be one thing. You don't. If you want to debate me on anything you said about Obama, feel free.

And btw, I'm not a liberal. (Hint: I'm not a conservative either.) I'm apathetic. But I can't stand to see the ignorant mudslinging from either side. American politics should be about challenging ideas, not vitriol.

Both parties basically believe in the same thing, but American politics operate on the basis of smoke in mirrors and deception. When I can see the rhetoric of Krauthammer or Sean Hannity permeating into online forums, that tells me two things:

1. People are stupid and gullible.
2. People don't know what they are talking about.

That is not to hate on Krauthammer, btw. He is a brilliant fellow (see his treatise on democratic realism, if you ever get the chance... totally worth reading).

When I taught a political science class a year ago, the lions share of the students I worked with thought basically the same as you do: they didn't. They listened to others who didn't know what they were talking about. Words like "liberal" and "conservative" believe it or not actually do have a meaning. They do not mean "republican" or "democrat" FYI.


I apologized to you above. I wish you had read that apology. But, judging by this comment, it seems that my apology may have been premature.

I would also like to add that I know much more about this stuff than you give me credit for.

It might be easy dismissing my ideas by calling me a "mouthpiece" of Sean Hannity, but it doesn't make it accurate.

I think for myself. Of course, I have been influenced by others. But, I can guarantee you that Milton Friedman and William Buckley have had much more of an influence on me than has Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh.

So, if dismissing all opposing ideas as "corporate propaganda" or "Fox News propaganda" makes you more secure about your own thinking, then by all means continue.

But, if you are interested in learning and expanding your understanding, I would suggest a different approach.
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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8/7/2012 4:38:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 4:18:31 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/7/2012 4:06:30 AM, YYW wrote:
I'm a pathetic

... a pathetic what?

Advocate for either the republican or democratic parties. Here's to independence!

*toasts*
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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8/7/2012 4:49:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 4:26:39 AM, JamesMadison wrote:
At 8/7/2012 4:16:27 AM, JamesMadison wrote:
At 8/7/2012 4:06:30 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/7/2012 3:50:23 AM, JamesMadison wrote:

Ignorant conservatives who function on online forums as pseudo-intelectual mouthpieces of prime-time pundits make me laugh. If you knew your sh!t that would be one thing. You don't. If you want to debate me on anything you said about Obama, feel free.

And btw, I'm not a liberal. (Hint: I'm not a conservative either.) I'm apathetic. But I can't stand to see the ignorant mudslinging from either side. American politics should be about challenging ideas, not vitriol.

Both parties basically believe in the same thing, but American politics operate on the basis of smoke in mirrors and deception. When I can see the rhetoric of Krauthammer or Sean Hannity permeating into online forums, that tells me two things:

1. People are stupid and gullible.
2. People don't know what they are talking about.

That is not to hate on Krauthammer, btw. He is a brilliant fellow (see his treatise on democratic realism, if you ever get the chance... totally worth reading).

When I taught a political science class a year ago, the lions share of the students I worked with thought basically the same as you do: they didn't. They listened to others who didn't know what they were talking about. Words like "liberal" and "conservative" believe it or not actually do have a meaning. They do not mean "republican" or "democrat" FYI.


I apologized to you above. I wish you had read that apology. But, judging by this comment, it seems that my apology may have been premature.

I didn't see your apology, or think it was necessary. There is no need to apologize. It's not personal. It's observational.


I would also like to add that I know much more about this stuff than you give me credit for.

Cool. I don't believe you, but what does my opinion matter? Let your words speak for themselves.

It might be easy dismissing my ideas by calling me a "mouthpiece" of Sean Hannity, but it doesn't make it accurate.

I didn't call you a mouthpiece for Hannity (at least not directly, albeit I may or may not have implied that -lol). I know you are more informed then the average american voter, but the average American voter is comprehensively ignorant. It isn't necessary to prove to me how smart you think you are or well informed, btw. Our posts are telling. My only request is this: keep your eyes open and don't fall asleep in your political science and economics classes (that I hope you avail yourself to take when you are in college).

I think for myself. Of course, I have been influenced by others. But, I can guarantee you that Milton Friedman and William Buckley have had much more of an influence on me than has Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh.

I'll grant you that in terms of intellectual credence, Friedman and Buckley are forever the better conservatives to read or hear from then Hannity of Limbaugh (although I will admit that listening to Limbaugh is a guilty pleasure for me, he's like the Howard Stern of talk radio) -but at the same time I will also point out that the world is wider than you think. I don't care what your political views are. I only ask that you have good reasons to justify them.

So, if dismissing all opposing ideas as "corporate propaganda" or "Fox News propaganda" makes you more secure about your own thinking, then by all means continue.

Get off your soap box. FOX is biased to the right. Everyone else is biased to the left. Who fvcking cares. Broadcast or cable news isn't about "news" -it's about entertainment. Watch Don Henley's "Dirty Laundry" video if you ever get a chance. That should clear things up.

But, if you are interested in learning and expanding your understanding, I would suggest a different approach.

lol, that's hilarious. No need to get defensive. We're just having a conversation here.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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8/7/2012 4:51:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 3:56:06 AM, JamesMadison wrote:
YYW,

I'm sorry if I came off at all rude in my comments. I am usually careful about that.

Although, I will say that it is a pet peeve of mine when people tell me that Obama really does believe in free enterprise or really does like business a lot or that he is a moderate. I understand a lot of people feel this way, but it seems very silly to me. And, it does frustrate me.

But, you seem like a smart, nice guy. Not a lot of those on DDO or the world in general.

Ahh.. Now I see your apology. I was typing the post I made when you posted this. No apology necessary though. We all say crazy things online -myself included.
Tsar of DDO