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Romney responsible for woman's death?

RoyLatham
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8/8/2012 10:44:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A PAC support President Obama has put out an ad featuring a worker who lost his job when a steel company owned by Bain Capital failed and went under. The worker lost his health care. Subsequently his wife was diagnosed with cancer and died. The worker says Romney just doesn't feel the damage he doing to people.

The truth is:

1. Bain kept the company going for four years longer than it would have otherwise. Without Bain, he would have lost is job four years earlier.
2. The man's wife was never covered by his insurance. She had her own job with her own insurance that continued after the steel company failed.
3. The steel company failed two years after Romney left Bain.
4. The woman died five years after the steel company failed, and was never diagnosed until the disease was untreatable.
http://blogs.marketwatch.com...

The Obama campaign chairwomen said she knew nothing of the ad or of the facts of the case and so could not comment. Within a day, a tape was discovered of the chairwoman interviewing the man as he told his story.

If you were wondering what "Chicago style politics" is, this is it. It's lying.
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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8/8/2012 10:53:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not the best idea for an ad, for the Obama campaign. Though, our current system kills 45,000 a year and the reasons are tragic.
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Lordknukle
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8/8/2012 10:55:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 10:53:47 PM, Contra wrote:
Not the best idea for an ad, for the Obama campaign. Though, our current system kills 45,000 a year and the reasons are tragic.

The system doesn't kill anybody. Diseases kill people, which some people don't get treated for; their loss.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
MrBrooks
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8/8/2012 10:56:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The system doesn't kill anybody. Diseases kill people, which some people don't get treated for; their loss.

And if the system didn't exist in the first place more people would be able to afford treatment.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/8/2012 11:13:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 10:44:15 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
A PAC support President Obama has put out an ad featuring a worker who lost his job when a steel company owned by Bain Capital failed and went under. The worker lost his health care. Subsequently his wife was diagnosed with cancer and died. The worker says Romney just doesn't feel the damage he doing to people.

The truth is:

1. Bain kept the company going for four years longer than it would have otherwise. Without Bain, he would have lost is job four years earlier.
2. The man's wife was never covered by his insurance. She had her own job with her own insurance that continued after the steel company failed.
3. The steel company failed two years after Romney left Bain.
4. The woman died five years after the steel company failed, and was never diagnosed until the disease was untreatable.
http://blogs.marketwatch.com...

The Obama campaign chairwomen said she knew nothing of the ad or of the facts of the case and so could not comment. Within a day, a tape was discovered of the chairwoman interviewing the man as he told his story.

If you were wondering what "Chicago style politics" is, this is it. It's lying.

I already posted about this. It's completely dispicable. The left is attacking Romney like crazy over anything "Might be a felon. Probably a murderer".

I'm curious if she was a smoker, wasn't it lung cancer?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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8/8/2012 11:17:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 10:56:00 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
The system doesn't kill anybody. Diseases kill people, which some people don't get treated for; their loss.

And if the system didn't exist in the first place more people would be able to afford treatment.

Obamacare will take out at least 10% of physicians, who will retire rather than have to fight the 100,000 pages of new regulations. Private practice is discouraged in the extreme, with huge fines for not obeying the regulations. There is nothing in Obamacare that increases the number of health care professionals. Therefore the amount of care will decrease.

Socialist theory is that if you have one doctor and his services are free then that is ideal, because everyone has free equal access. Providing actual services does not count. The WHO ranking of health care counts delivered health services as 25% of the score, with social equality as 75% of the score. 75 of 100 can be achieved without ever caring for a single person.

The present US system is the best in the world in terms of delivered services. East Asian women live longer in New Jersey than they do in Japan.
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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8/8/2012 11:41:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
just found this, the people that released the ad were an independent group and already Obama's team is trying to distance themselves from it

http://news.yahoo.com...

(this is why its more useful to research the topic then to bicker about an old argument)
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NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/9/2012 12:49:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Guys, the dude's wife died of cancer. Romney really isn't the victim here. He's not the aggressor either, but it's sad that we, myself included, are focusing on the political aspect of this. The man probably cried after the ad, had to have the cameraman or director comfort him or something; he's a human being trying to understand why someone he loved was taken from him.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
JaxsonRaine
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8/9/2012 1:00:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 12:49:55 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
Guys, the dude's wife died of cancer. Romney really isn't the victim here. He's not the aggressor either, but it's sad that we, myself included, are focusing on the political aspect of this. The man probably cried after the ad, had to have the cameraman or director comfort him or something; he's a human being trying to understand why someone he loved was taken from him.

No, it's a man who is intent on attacking Romney.

His wife had a job and her own insurance when the plant was closed. It had nothing to do with her getting sick.

He shouldn't be politicizing it but he is. Blame him, the rest of America has to deal with the politicizing.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
RoyLatham
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8/9/2012 1:21:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 11:41:14 PM, imabench wrote:
just found this, the people that released the ad were an independent group and already Obama's team is trying to distance themselves from it

http://news.yahoo.com...

(this is why its more useful to research the topic then to bicker about an old argument)

I said in m post they were independent and that the official Obama campaign chair said she knew nothing of it. A few hours later, the interview tape showed she knew everything about it. Also, the same man had appeared in May in an official Obama ad attacking Romney for shutting down the steel company.

Do you think the Democrats are actually so stupid that they don't know that it's better to try to bail out a company rather than just let it go under? It seems you'd have to be really stupid not to figure that out. But it's possible they really believe natural death is better.
JaxsonRaine
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8/9/2012 1:24:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 1:21:24 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 8/8/2012 11:41:14 PM, imabench wrote:
just found this, the people that released the ad were an independent group and already Obama's team is trying to distance themselves from it

http://news.yahoo.com...

(this is why its more useful to research the topic then to bicker about an old argument)

I said in m post they were independent and that the official Obama campaign chair said she knew nothing of it. A few hours later, the interview tape showed she knew everything about it. Also, the same man had appeared in May in an official Obama ad attacking Romney for shutting down the steel company.

Do you think the Democrats are actually so stupid that they don't know that it's better to try to bail out a company rather than just let it go under? It seems you'd have to be really stupid not to figure that out. But it's possible they really believe natural death is better.

If Romney does it with private money, it's a bad thing. If Obama does it with taxpayer money, it's a good thing. If Obama does what Romney suggested about GM, it's a good thing for Obama and bad thing for Romney.

There is no logic. There are stupid people in both parties.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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8/9/2012 1:37:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 1:25:21 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Does JacksonRain know how do anything other than straw man?

What and who did I strawman?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/9/2012 1:42:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 1:00:26 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/9/2012 12:49:55 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
Guys, the dude's wife died of cancer. Romney really isn't the victim here. He's not the aggressor either, but it's sad that we, myself included, are focusing on the political aspect of this. The man probably cried after the ad, had to have the cameraman or director comfort him or something; he's a human being trying to understand why someone he loved was taken from him.

No, it's a man who is intent on attacking Romney.

His wife had a job and her own insurance when the plant was closed. It had nothing to do with her getting sick.

He shouldn't be politicizing it but he is. Blame him, the rest of America has to deal with the politicizing.

His wife died, without condoning, I make allowances.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
JaxsonRaine
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8/9/2012 1:45:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 1:42:49 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/9/2012 1:00:26 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/9/2012 12:49:55 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
Guys, the dude's wife died of cancer. Romney really isn't the victim here. He's not the aggressor either, but it's sad that we, myself included, are focusing on the political aspect of this. The man probably cried after the ad, had to have the cameraman or director comfort him or something; he's a human being trying to understand why someone he loved was taken from him.

No, it's a man who is intent on attacking Romney.

His wife had a job and her own insurance when the plant was closed. It had nothing to do with her getting sick.

He shouldn't be politicizing it but he is. Blame him, the rest of America has to deal with the politicizing.

His wife died, without condoning, I make allowances.

Yeah, his wife died. But he should respect her and not try to use that as a political tactic. It's not even like it just happened, and he is making claims in a fit of grief.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/9/2012 5:12:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 1:45:24 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/9/2012 1:42:49 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/9/2012 1:00:26 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/9/2012 12:49:55 AM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
Guys, the dude's wife died of cancer. Romney really isn't the victim here. He's not the aggressor either, but it's sad that we, myself included, are focusing on the political aspect of this. The man probably cried after the ad, had to have the cameraman or director comfort him or something; he's a human being trying to understand why someone he loved was taken from him.

No, it's a man who is intent on attacking Romney.

His wife had a job and her own insurance when the plant was closed. It had nothing to do with her getting sick.

He shouldn't be politicizing it but he is. Blame him, the rest of America has to deal with the politicizing.

His wife died, without condoning, I make allowances.

Yeah, his wife died. But he should respect her and not try to use that as a political tactic. It's not even like it just happened, and he is making claims in a fit of grief.

He's trying to make sense of her passing, if he needs to blame Romney, or Obama, or whatever, then I'm happy to let him have it. It's a single guy, who people are quick to discredit, eg: this forum.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
HelterSkelter
Posts: 281
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8/9/2012 6:40:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 11:17:16 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:56:00 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
The system doesn't kill anybody. Diseases kill people, which some people don't get treated for; their loss.

And if the system didn't exist in the first place more people would be able to afford treatment.

Obamacare will take out at least 10% of physicians, who will retire rather than have to fight the 100,000 pages of new regulations. Private practice is discouraged in the extreme, with huge fines for not obeying the regulations. There is nothing in Obamacare that increases the number of health care professionals. Therefore the amount of care will decrease.

My parents are doctors and are familiar with the regulation. Obamacare actually pushes for more physicians in the fields that they are needed in. Please don't lie about this one.
Socialist theory is that if you have one doctor and his services are free then that is ideal, because everyone has free equal access. Providing actual services does not count. The WHO ranking of health care counts delivered health services as 25% of the score, with social equality as 75% of the score. 75 of 100 can be achieved without ever caring for a single person.

The present US system is the best in the world in terms of delivered services. East Asian women live longer in New Jersey than they do in Japan.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/9/2012 12:04:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 10:56:00 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
The system doesn't kill anybody. Diseases kill people, which some people don't get treated for; their loss.

And if the system didn't exist in the first place more people would be able to afford treatment.

On a desert island "the system" doesn't exist.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Aaronroy
Posts: 749
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8/9/2012 2:53:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 10:55:08 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:53:47 PM, Contra wrote:
Not the best idea for an ad, for the Obama campaign. Though, our current system kills 45,000 a year and the reasons are tragic.

The system doesn't kill anybody. Diseases kill people, which some people don't get treated for; their loss.

It's their fault for contracting the disease?
turn down for h'what
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2012 6:56:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 10:44:15 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
A PAC support President Obama has put out an ad featuring a worker who lost his job when a steel company owned by Bain Capital failed and went under. The worker lost his health care. Subsequently his wife was diagnosed with cancer and died. The worker says Romney just doesn't feel the damage he doing to people.

The truth is:

1. Bain kept the company going for four years longer than it would have otherwise. Without Bain, he would have lost is job four years earlier.

Evidence? Please and thank you.

2. The man's wife was never covered by his insurance. She had her own job with her own insurance that continued after the steel company failed.

Had he still had his job, when she lost hers, she could have been covered.

3. The steel company failed two years after Romney left Bain.

If he owns the company, he's still responsible for it.

4. The woman died five years after the steel company failed, and was never diagnosed until the disease was untreatable.

It is entirely hypothetical to if the disease would have been caught sooner or not had she had insurance for those last three years.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com...

The Obama campaign chairwomen said she knew nothing of the ad or of the facts of the case and so could not comment. Within a day, a tape was discovered of the chairwoman interviewing the man as he told his story.

Please present the tape.


If you were wondering what "Chicago style politics" is, this is it. It's lying.

You're pretty good at it too.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mark.marrocco
Posts: 236
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8/9/2012 7:16:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 10:44:15 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
A PAC support President Obama has put out an ad featuring a worker who lost his job when a steel company owned by Bain Capital failed and went under. The worker lost his health care. Subsequently his wife was diagnosed with cancer and died. The worker says Romney just doesn't feel the damage he doing to people.

The truth is:

1. Bain kept the company going for four years longer than it would have otherwise. Without Bain, he would have lost is job four years earlier.
2. The man's wife was never covered by his insurance. She had her own job with her own insurance that continued after the steel company failed.
3. The steel company failed two years after Romney left Bain.
4. The woman died five years after the steel company failed, and was never diagnosed until the disease was untreatable.
http://blogs.marketwatch.com...

The Obama campaign chairwomen said she knew nothing of the ad or of the facts of the case and so could not comment. Within a day, a tape was discovered of the chairwoman interviewing the man as he told his story.

If you were wondering what "Chicago style politics" is, this is it. It's lying.

All politics is lying.
"Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/9/2012 8:53:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 2:53:26 PM, Aaronroy wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:55:08 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:53:47 PM, Contra wrote:
Not the best idea for an ad, for the Obama campaign. Though, our current system kills 45,000 a year and the reasons are tragic.

The system doesn't kill anybody. Diseases kill people, which some people don't get treated for; their loss.

It's their fault for contracting the disease?

More than it is the fault of any other person on earth. An individual can take measures to minimize their risk of becoming sick. Bob Taxpayer can't take measures to keep the fork out of Joe Diabeetus' mouth.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2012 9:15:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 8:53:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2012 2:53:26 PM, Aaronroy wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:55:08 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:53:47 PM, Contra wrote:
Not the best idea for an ad, for the Obama campaign. Though, our current system kills 45,000 a year and the reasons are tragic.

The system doesn't kill anybody. Diseases kill people, which some people don't get treated for; their loss.

It's their fault for contracting the disease?

More than it is the fault of any other person on earth. An individual can take measures to minimize their risk of becoming sick. Bob Taxpayer can't take measures to keep the fork out of Joe Diabeetus' mouth.

That varies from case to case. It can't be broad brushed.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
thett3
Posts: 14,348
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8/9/2012 11:31:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 6:56:41 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:44:15 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
A PAC support President Obama has put out an ad featuring a worker who lost his job when a steel company owned by Bain Capital failed and went under. The worker lost his health care. Subsequently his wife was diagnosed with cancer and died. The worker says Romney just doesn't feel the damage he doing to people.

The truth is:

1. Bain kept the company going for four years longer than it would have otherwise. Without Bain, he would have lost is job four years earlier.

Evidence? Please and thank you.

2. The man's wife was never covered by his insurance. She had her own job with her own insurance that continued after the steel company failed.

Had he still had his job, when she lost hers, she could have been covered.

3. The steel company failed two years after Romney left Bain.

If he owns the company, he's still responsible for it.

4. The woman died five years after the steel company failed, and was never diagnosed until the disease was untreatable.

It is entirely hypothetical to if the disease would have been caught sooner or not had she had insurance for those last three years.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com...

The Obama campaign chairwomen said she knew nothing of the ad or of the facts of the case and so could not comment. Within a day, a tape was discovered of the chairwoman interviewing the man as he told his story.

Please present the tape.

Not gonna bother to research the rest of your rebuttals, but I did stumble upon this on realclearpolitics: http://www.politico.com...


If you were wondering what "Chicago style politics" is, this is it. It's lying.

You're pretty good at it too.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2012 11:45:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 11:31:03 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/9/2012 6:56:41 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:44:15 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
A PAC support President Obama has put out an ad featuring a worker who lost his job when a steel company owned by Bain Capital failed and went under. The worker lost his health care. Subsequently his wife was diagnosed with cancer and died. The worker says Romney just doesn't feel the damage he doing to people.

The truth is:

1. Bain kept the company going for four years longer than it would have otherwise. Without Bain, he would have lost is job four years earlier.

Evidence? Please and thank you.

2. The man's wife was never covered by his insurance. She had her own job with her own insurance that continued after the steel company failed.

Had he still had his job, when she lost hers, she could have been covered.

3. The steel company failed two years after Romney left Bain.

If he owns the company, he's still responsible for it.

4. The woman died five years after the steel company failed, and was never diagnosed until the disease was untreatable.

It is entirely hypothetical to if the disease would have been caught sooner or not had she had insurance for those last three years.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com...

The Obama campaign chairwomen said she knew nothing of the ad or of the facts of the case and so could not comment. Within a day, a tape was discovered of the chairwoman interviewing the man as he told his story.

Please present the tape.

Not gonna bother to research the rest of your rebuttals, but I did stumble upon this on realclearpolitics: http://www.politico.com...

I'll look further into it, but this says that they admit to it, without providing a quote of admittance or a link to one.



If you were wondering what "Chicago style politics" is, this is it. It's lying.

You're pretty good at it too.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
thett3
Posts: 14,348
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8/9/2012 11:49:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 11:45:16 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2012 11:31:03 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/9/2012 6:56:41 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/8/2012 10:44:15 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
A PAC support President Obama has put out an ad featuring a worker who lost his job when a steel company owned by Bain Capital failed and went under. The worker lost his health care. Subsequently his wife was diagnosed with cancer and died. The worker says Romney just doesn't feel the damage he doing to people.

The truth is:

1. Bain kept the company going for four years longer than it would have otherwise. Without Bain, he would have lost is job four years earlier.

Evidence? Please and thank you.

2. The man's wife was never covered by his insurance. She had her own job with her own insurance that continued after the steel company failed.

Had he still had his job, when she lost hers, she could have been covered.

3. The steel company failed two years after Romney left Bain.

If he owns the company, he's still responsible for it.

4. The woman died five years after the steel company failed, and was never diagnosed until the disease was untreatable.

It is entirely hypothetical to if the disease would have been caught sooner or not had she had insurance for those last three years.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com...

The Obama campaign chairwomen said she knew nothing of the ad or of the facts of the case and so could not comment. Within a day, a tape was discovered of the chairwoman interviewing the man as he told his story.

Please present the tape.

Not gonna bother to research the rest of your rebuttals, but I did stumble upon this on realclearpolitics: http://www.politico.com...

I'll look further into it, but this says that they admit to it, without providing a quote of admittance or a link to one.

That's true. It could be simply propaganda. I think what most likely happened was that they knew about it, but didnt condone or condemn it. But thats just a hunch



If you were wondering what "Chicago style politics" is, this is it. It's lying.

You're pretty good at it too.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2012 11:54:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://www.politico.com...

In the updated at the bottom...

"Obama campaign Ben LaBolt responds: 'As you know, we can't coordinate with super PACs and didn't produce the Priorities ad. Many workers around the country have a story to tell about what happened to their jobs and benefits when Mitt Romney and his partners made millions in profits by loading up companies up with debt, forcing them into bankruptcy. Joe Soptic suffered when he lost his job in the aftermath of the GST Steel plant closing, and no one is denying that he discussed that when he appeared in a campaign advertisement and on a conference call...'"
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2012 11:59:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 11:54:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
http://www.politico.com...

In the updated at the bottom...

"Obama campaign Ben LaBolt responds: 'As you know, we can't coordinate with super PACs and didn't produce the Priorities ad. Many workers around the country have a story to tell about what happened to their jobs and benefits when Mitt Romney and his partners made millions in profits by loading up companies up with debt, forcing them into bankruptcy. Joe Soptic suffered when he lost his job in the aftermath of the GST Steel plant closing, and no one is denying that he discussed that when he appeared in a campaign advertisement and on a conference call...'"

Looking more into it. There were two ads done. One by the super pac, and one by the Obama admin (back in May). I suppose it is entirely possible that they didn't realize that it was the same guy that did the ad months ago for them (and since legally, candidates and super pacs can't work together) and so said they didn't know anything about him. That is, of course, giving a fairly decent benefit of the doubt to them.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"