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Feminism: Is it a gender war?

Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/10/2012 11:38:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I read this article and was amazed by what I saw: http://www.womenagainstmen.com...

Recently, in media and tv shows you see men portrayed as muscle-bound morons and women as shrewd, calculating geniuses. (Modern family. Spy Kids. And pretty much any sitcom.) You see men portrayed as sex-dogs all intersted in deflowering the 'innocent' young girls. You see men ridiculed for their biological attraction to the female form and you hear ridiculous quotes such as, "Women should take over because Men start wars." The idea that women still get child custody in legal disputes, are lauded for kicking men between the legs or slapping them across the face to get a point across, but then proceed to say (we're equal in all percievable ways!!)

Now, is this simply radical feminism? I am all for equal rights. Equal rights so that men and women competing for the same job have to match up on job criteria to get the job. Women can be smarter then men and men can be smarter then women, deal with it. Equal rights where the ridiculous statement, "Women and Men are the same" are ignored. (IE. in a construction place, a man who is in peak physical form is generally going to be more useful at heavy labor than a woman in peak physical form.)

Athletically, men in general can compete against women at a more physical level. Women are better at multi-tasking and productivity because of this in certain areas.

But, in my opinion, feminism seems to have become a gender war, not a movement promoting rights. And when someone wages war against an entire group of people (fifty percent of the population) why is it so shocking, that you meet resistence? You find men who aren't impressed by how some feminists belittle them to promote women. Or how some people forget about Joan of Arc or Margaret Thatcher when saying "men only start wars."

Anyway, I'm not a feminist in the new sense of the word. I am for the equality of all. (This doesn't mean ALL are EQUAL. It means they should have equal personal rights that don't take away anyone else's rights.)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/10/2012 11:46:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 11:38:09 AM, Axiom wrote:
I read this article and was amazed by what I saw: http://www.womenagainstmen.com...

Recently, in media and tv shows you see men portrayed as muscle-bound morons and women as shrewd, calculating geniuses. (Modern family. Spy Kids. And pretty much any sitcom.) You see men portrayed as sex-dogs all intersted in deflowering the 'innocent' young girls. You see men ridiculed for their biological attraction to the female form and you hear ridiculous quotes such as, "Women should take over because Men start wars." The idea that women still get child custody in legal disputes, are lauded for kicking men between the legs or slapping them across the face to get a point across, but then proceed to say (we're equal in all percievable ways!!)

Now, is this simply radical feminism? I am all for equal rights. Equal rights so that men and women competing for the same job have to match up on job criteria to get the job. Women can be smarter then men and men can be smarter then women, deal with it. Equal rights where the ridiculous statement, "Women and Men are the same" are ignored. (IE. in a construction place, a man who is in peak physical form is generally going to be more useful at heavy labor than a woman in peak physical form.)

Athletically, men in general can compete against women at a more physical level. Women are better at multi-tasking and productivity because of this in certain areas.

But, in my opinion, feminism seems to have become a gender war, not a movement promoting rights. And when someone wages war against an entire group of people (fifty percent of the population) why is it so shocking, that you meet resistence? You find men who aren't impressed by how some feminists belittle them to promote women. Or how some people forget about Joan of Arc or Margaret Thatcher when saying "men only start wars."

Anyway, I'm not a feminist in the new sense of the word. I am for the equality of all. (This doesn't mean ALL are EQUAL. It means they should have equal personal rights that don't take away anyone else's rights.):

Feminism is supposed to be ab out equality, and most women (and men) probably view it as such. There is, however, a radical fringe that take the argument to an illogical extreme. People like Andrea Dworkin are are extreme outliers, and don't comprise the bulk of feminists. So to categorically disavow "feminism" as "feminazi's" is disingenuous and an unfair mischaracterization.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/10/2012 11:55:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 11:49:01 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Outlaw global wife beating before ranting about crotch kicking in the media.

Funny thing, last I checked, wife-beating was illegal in the U.S. And as for "global," I unfortunately have no power over other countries and if your argument is that, 'because inequality exists elswhere, it should be permissible here as well,' then you have no concept of what progressive equality is and through your own logic: American women would be subserviant, slavery would still exist, and the one-child-policy would be instituted here.

Don't speak so flipplantly. You're revealing your ignorance.
Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/10/2012 11:57:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 11:46:18 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/10/2012 11:38:09 AM, Axiom wrote:
I read this article and was amazed by what I saw: http://www.womenagainstmen.com...

Recently, in media and tv shows you see men portrayed as muscle-bound morons and women as shrewd, calculating geniuses. (Modern family. Spy Kids. And pretty much any sitcom.) You see men portrayed as sex-dogs all intersted in deflowering the 'innocent' young girls. You see men ridiculed for their biological attraction to the female form and you hear ridiculous quotes such as, "Women should take over because Men start wars." The idea that women still get child custody in legal disputes, are lauded for kicking men between the legs or slapping them across the face to get a point across, but then proceed to say (we're equal in all percievable ways!!)

Now, is this simply radical feminism? I am all for equal rights. Equal rights so that men and women competing for the same job have to match up on job criteria to get the job. Women can be smarter then men and men can be smarter then women, deal with it. Equal rights where the ridiculous statement, "Women and Men are the same" are ignored. (IE. in a construction place, a man who is in peak physical form is generally going to be more useful at heavy labor than a woman in peak physical form.)

Athletically, men in general can compete against women at a more physical level. Women are better at multi-tasking and productivity because of this in certain areas.

But, in my opinion, feminism seems to have become a gender war, not a movement promoting rights. And when someone wages war against an entire group of people (fifty percent of the population) why is it so shocking, that you meet resistence? You find men who aren't impressed by how some feminists belittle them to promote women. Or how some people forget about Joan of Arc or Margaret Thatcher when saying "men only start wars."

Anyway, I'm not a feminist in the new sense of the word. I am for the equality of all. (This doesn't mean ALL are EQUAL. It means they should have equal personal rights that don't take away anyone else's rights.):

Feminism is supposed to be ab out equality, and most women (and men) probably view it as such. There is, however, a radical fringe that take the argument to an illogical extreme. People like Andrea Dworkin are are extreme outliers, and don't comprise the bulk of feminists. So to categorically disavow "feminism" as "feminazi's" is disingenuous and an unfair mischaracterization.

You're right of course. I suppose it is 'radical feminism' or 'militant feminism' that I find so appalling. In a way it is how the WBBC adopts the name "Christian" and it gives the entire belief system a bad name.
Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/10/2012 11:57:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 11:46:18 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/10/2012 11:38:09 AM, Axiom wrote:
I read this article and was amazed by what I saw: http://www.womenagainstmen.com...

Recently, in media and tv shows you see men portrayed as muscle-bound morons and women as shrewd, calculating geniuses. (Modern family. Spy Kids. And pretty much any sitcom.) You see men portrayed as sex-dogs all intersted in deflowering the 'innocent' young girls. You see men ridiculed for their biological attraction to the female form and you hear ridiculous quotes such as, "Women should take over because Men start wars." The idea that women still get child custody in legal disputes, are lauded for kicking men between the legs or slapping them across the face to get a point across, but then proceed to say (we're equal in all percievable ways!!)

Now, is this simply radical feminism? I am all for equal rights. Equal rights so that men and women competing for the same job have to match up on job criteria to get the job. Women can be smarter then men and men can be smarter then women, deal with it. Equal rights where the ridiculous statement, "Women and Men are the same" are ignored. (IE. in a construction place, a man who is in peak physical form is generally going to be more useful at heavy labor than a woman in peak physical form.)

Athletically, men in general can compete against women at a more physical level. Women are better at multi-tasking and productivity because of this in certain areas.

But, in my opinion, feminism seems to have become a gender war, not a movement promoting rights. And when someone wages war against an entire group of people (fifty percent of the population) why is it so shocking, that you meet resistence? You find men who aren't impressed by how some feminists belittle them to promote women. Or how some people forget about Joan of Arc or Margaret Thatcher when saying "men only start wars."

Anyway, I'm not a feminist in the new sense of the word. I am for the equality of all. (This doesn't mean ALL are EQUAL. It means they should have equal personal rights that don't take away anyone else's rights.):

Feminism is supposed to be ab out equality, and most women (and men) probably view it as such. There is, however, a radical fringe that take the argument to an illogical extreme. People like Andrea Dworkin are are extreme outliers, and don't comprise the bulk of feminists. So to categorically disavow "feminism" as "feminazi's" is disingenuous and an unfair mischaracterization.

You're right of course. I suppose it is 'radical feminism' or 'militant feminism' that I find so appalling. In a way it is how the WBBC adopts the name "Christian" and it gives the entire belief system a bad name.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/10/2012 12:00:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Did the b!tch just say that the Y chromosome is an incomplete X chromosome? BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/10/2012 12:35:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 11:38:09 AM, Axiom wrote:
I read this article and was amazed by what I saw: http://www.womenagainstmen.com...

Recently, in media and tv shows you see men portrayed as muscle-bound morons and women as shrewd, calculating geniuses. (Modern family. Spy Kids. And pretty much any sitcom.) You see men portrayed as sex-dogs all intersted in deflowering the 'innocent' young girls. You see men ridiculed for their biological attraction to the female form and you hear ridiculous quotes such as, "Women should take over because Men start wars." The idea that women still get child custody in legal disputes, are lauded for kicking men between the legs or slapping them across the face to get a point across, but then proceed to say (we're equal in all percievable ways!!)

Now, is this simply radical feminism? I am all for equal rights. Equal rights so that men and women competing for the same job have to match up on job criteria to get the job. Women can be smarter then men and men can be smarter then women, deal with it. Equal rights where the ridiculous statement, "Women and Men are the same" are ignored. (IE. in a construction place, a man who is in peak physical form is generally going to be more useful at heavy labor than a woman in peak physical form.)

Athletically, men in general can compete against women at a more physical level. Women are better at multi-tasking and productivity because of this in certain areas.

But, in my opinion, feminism seems to have become a gender war, not a movement promoting rights. And when someone wages war against an entire group of people (fifty percent of the population) why is it so shocking, that you meet resistence? You find men who aren't impressed by how some feminists belittle them to promote women. Or how some people forget about Joan of Arc or Margaret Thatcher when saying "men only start wars."

Anyway, I'm not a feminist in the new sense of the word. I am for the equality of all. (This doesn't mean ALL are EQUAL. It means they should have equal personal rights that don't take away anyone else's rights.)

You mean, all those shows, like The Simpsons, Family Guy, to a limited extent Modern Family, that present terrible husbands/boyfriends with ultra-hot wives/girlfriends as the norm? I personally dislike that violence directed against men in comedy is, implicitly, seen as more acceptable, but it's not one sided by any stretch of the imagination: shows have biases, but they're usually things like the nuclear family. And it's disingenuous to lay the blame at the feet of feminism, you'd have to believe that Fox, etc., were run by feminists. It's usually to do with what the producers think the audience wants, which in the generalized case of soccer moms might be gentle-jibing of the romantically involved male.

The problem is that you've assumed that if a scenario favors women, it's origins are feminist. This isn't the case.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/10/2012 1:18:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 12:33:17 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
Feminists are morons.

They're the reason why you're not in the kitchen right now.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
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8/10/2012 1:23:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 1:18:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/10/2012 12:33:17 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
Feminists are morons.

They're the reason why you're not in the kitchen right now.

I'm just kidding.

but seriously, don't be one of those people that think attacking their own kind makes them look like they're freethinkers. Feminists brought a lot of change to otherwise oppressive conditions. We should respect them and their cause
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Contra
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8/10/2012 1:23:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 11:38:09 AM, Axiom wrote:
I am for the equality of all. (This doesn't mean ALL are EQUAL. It means they should have equal personal rights that don't take away anyone else's rights.)

My position as well.
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DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/10/2012 2:38:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 1:23:39 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/10/2012 1:18:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/10/2012 12:33:17 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
Feminists are morons.

They're the reason why you're not in the kitchen right now.

I'm just kidding.

but seriously, don't be one of those people that think attacking their own kind makes them look like they're freethinkers. Feminists brought a lot of change to otherwise oppressive conditions. We should respect them and their cause

Not the new generation. The movement went from Egalitarianism to female supremacy.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/10/2012 3:00:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 2:38:18 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/10/2012 1:23:39 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/10/2012 1:18:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/10/2012 12:33:17 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
Feminists are morons.

They're the reason why you're not in the kitchen right now.

I'm just kidding.

but seriously, don't be one of those people that think attacking their own kind makes them look like they're freethinkers. Feminists brought a lot of change to otherwise oppressive conditions. We should respect them and their cause

Not the new generation. The movement went from Egalitarianism to female supremacy.

Surely the crucial step between "Egalitarianism" and "Supremacy" is "Equality", which hasn't been achieved. Although, I agree there are some silly folks who identify with the feminist movement, that happens everywhere.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/10/2012 3:01:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
LOL I typed into google, "Gender latin"

Here is the results in order;

1. Gender - Latin and English Differences
2. Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
3. Grand Inquisitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
4. Grammatical gender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
5. Latin genders
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
DanT
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8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

And there are people getting screwed by feminist hypocrisy, who are on the defensive.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OMGJustinBieber
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8/10/2012 3:21:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

There are people who push for male inferiority, it doesn't mean there's a gender war. I don't really know what the criteria is for a "gender war" but it's certainly contrary to my experience working with other people.
NixonianVolkswagen
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8/10/2012 4:06:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

And there are people getting screwed by feminist hypocrisy, who are on the defensive.

Like who, and in what proportion to those pushing for female inferiority?
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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8/10/2012 4:10:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It hasn't always been. But now it's starting to become one, and it's obvious that the extremes on both sides want it.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

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OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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8/10/2012 4:14:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 4:06:00 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

And there are people getting screwed by feminist hypocrisy, who are on the defensive.

Like who, and in what proportion to those pushing for female inferiority?

Some feminists, and I don't know the proportions as I haven't seen any surveys. Also, inferior in what way? In sports - yes, I think a lot of men would agree with that. As human beings I'd venture to say it would be difficult to get the majority of men to sign off on that.
NixonianVolkswagen
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8/10/2012 4:30:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 4:14:38 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:06:00 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

And there are people getting screwed by feminist hypocrisy, who are on the defensive.

Like who, and in what proportion to those pushing for female inferiority?

Some feminists, and I don't know the proportions as I haven't seen any surveys. Also, inferior in what way? In sports - yes, I think a lot of men would agree with that. As human beings I'd venture to say it would be difficult to get the majority of men to sign off on that.

Some feminists thinking or saying some things isn't necessarily men getting messed around in a meaningful way. Like, if Congressmen are sexist against women a little bit, that probably matters more than a single academic who passionately hates men.

Well, there're people who are sexist for all sorts of reasons. Usually religion and/or culture has a hand in it. It's like how Americans generally prefer to have male children, for example (if offered only one). I phrased it poorly when I made it seem like the only measure of inequality was explicit lobbying, I don't mean to suggest that people are thinking, "Women are awful." is the only problem.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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8/10/2012 4:47:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ah, always amusing to see men (and especially women) so horrified over the threat of "Feminists!!!!"

"Feminism" is not a unified group or theory.

There is liberal feminism, which aims to make men and women equal within society. This is what people refer to when they talk about "Feminism is no longer needed because men and women have equal rights."

Radical Feminism aims to reform society's basic social structure where it involves structural oppression towards women. This is what people talk about when they say "Feminists hate men."

Third Wave/Postmodern feminism focuses on individual empowerment as a means to changing social structures. It's restricted mainly to children of feminists from the 70s.

The closest thing to "war" in mainstream radical feminism results from total rejection of any form of patriarchy. For more extreme theorists, living under a patriarchy automatically means a women loses her right to consent, and therefore all sex is "rape."

It's an intellectual point, not a war cry, you dolt.

Furthermore, your ability to muster the words of some celebrity nutjobs who claim things like "we oughta kill all but 10%" is about as convincing as citing Al Qaeda to prove the entire muslim world is at war with us.
OMGJustinBieber
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8/10/2012 4:52:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 4:30:01 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:14:38 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:06:00 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

And there are people getting screwed by feminist hypocrisy, who are on the defensive.

Like who, and in what proportion to those pushing for female inferiority?

Some feminists, and I don't know the proportions as I haven't seen any surveys. Also, inferior in what way? In sports - yes, I think a lot of men would agree with that. As human beings I'd venture to say it would be difficult to get the majority of men to sign off on that.

Some feminists thinking or saying some things isn't necessarily men getting messed around in a meaningful way. Like, if Congressmen are sexist against women a little bit, that probably matters more than a single academic who passionately hates men.

Well, there're people who are sexist for all sorts of reasons. Usually religion and/or culture has a hand in it. It's like how Americans generally prefer to have male children, for example (if offered only one). I phrased it poorly when I made it seem like the only measure of inequality was explicit lobbying, I don't mean to suggest that people are thinking, "Women are awful." is the only problem.

What are we talking about? I'm not disputing whether sexism exists, it does - as does racism and prejudice against every conceivable group including upper class white males. I'm just skeptical as any claim of a "gender war" seems overblown.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/10/2012 4:59:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 11:38:09 AM, Axiom wrote:
I read this article and was amazed by what I saw: http://www.womenagainstmen.com...

Recently, in media and tv shows you see men portrayed as muscle-bound morons and women as shrewd, calculating geniuses. (Modern family. Spy Kids. And pretty much any sitcom.) You see men portrayed as sex-dogs all intersted in deflowering the 'innocent' young girls. You see men ridiculed for their biological attraction to the female form and you hear ridiculous quotes such as, "Women should take over because Men start wars." The idea that women still get child custody in legal disputes, are lauded for kicking men between the legs or slapping them across the face to get a point across, but then proceed to say (we're equal in all percievable ways!!)

As though women aren't mocked and derided just the same in media. I see nothing wrong with this.

Now, is this simply radical feminism? I am all for equal rights. Equal rights so that men and women competing for the same job have to match up on job criteria to get the job. Women can be smarter then men and men can be smarter then women, deal with it. Equal rights where the ridiculous statement, "Women and Men are the same" are ignored. (IE. in a construction place, a man who is in peak physical form is generally going to be more useful at heavy labor than a woman in peak physical form.)

Completely false assumption. It's likely, although not definite, that between a man and women exhibiting the same degree of physical fitness, the man will be more adroit. However, a physically fit woman would run circles around a weak man.

Athletically, men in general can compete against women at a more physical level. Women are better at multi-tasking and productivity because of this in certain areas.

But, in my opinion, feminism seems to have become a gender war, not a movement promoting rights. And when someone wages war against an entire group of people (fifty percent of the population) why is it so shocking, that you meet resistence? You find men who aren't impressed by how some feminists belittle them to promote women. Or how some people forget about Joan of Arc or Margaret Thatcher when saying "men only start wars."

I don't see anything wrong with that. On one hand, there have been several women with enough power to engage war throughout history, and these women exercised that power. On the other hand, people are generally immature, and will mock one another. I don't see why women should be singled out. If you ask me, there are several sources of rather disrespectful portrayals of women in contemporary media.

Anyway, I'm not a feminist in the new sense of the word. I am for the equality of all. (This doesn't mean ALL are EQUAL. It means they should have equal personal rights that don't take away anyone else's rights.)

Egalitarianism just muddles things. We should focus on, foremost, foregoing the concept of superiority.
NixonianVolkswagen
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8/10/2012 5:14:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 4:52:44 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:30:01 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:14:38 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:06:00 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

And there are people getting screwed by feminist hypocrisy, who are on the defensive.

Like who, and in what proportion to those pushing for female inferiority?

Some feminists, and I don't know the proportions as I haven't seen any surveys. Also, inferior in what way? In sports - yes, I think a lot of men would agree with that. As human beings I'd venture to say it would be difficult to get the majority of men to sign off on that.

Some feminists thinking or saying some things isn't necessarily men getting messed around in a meaningful way. Like, if Congressmen are sexist against women a little bit, that probably matters more than a single academic who passionately hates men.

Well, there're people who are sexist for all sorts of reasons. Usually religion and/or culture has a hand in it. It's like how Americans generally prefer to have male children, for example (if offered only one). I phrased it poorly when I made it seem like the only measure of inequality was explicit lobbying, I don't mean to suggest that people are thinking, "Women are awful." is the only problem.

What are we talking about? I'm not disputing whether sexism exists, it does - as does racism and prejudice against every conceivable group including upper class white males. I'm just skeptical as any claim of a "gender war" seems overblown.

The way that you framed it, and continue to, of, essentially, there being harmony, is what I was confused by. Sexism exists, and effects women more than men, as a rule of thumb. Negativity is aimed at upper class white males, but has much less impact than that aimed at poor, non-white, women. Without those qualifications, I think you can see why I was taking umbrage?
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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8/10/2012 5:26:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 5:14:08 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:52:44 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:30:01 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:14:38 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:06:00 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

And there are people getting screwed by feminist hypocrisy, who are on the defensive.

Like who, and in what proportion to those pushing for female inferiority?

Some feminists, and I don't know the proportions as I haven't seen any surveys. Also, inferior in what way? In sports - yes, I think a lot of men would agree with that. As human beings I'd venture to say it would be difficult to get the majority of men to sign off on that.

Some feminists thinking or saying some things isn't necessarily men getting messed around in a meaningful way. Like, if Congressmen are sexist against women a little bit, that probably matters more than a single academic who passionately hates men.

Well, there're people who are sexist for all sorts of reasons. Usually religion and/or culture has a hand in it. It's like how Americans generally prefer to have male children, for example (if offered only one). I phrased it poorly when I made it seem like the only measure of inequality was explicit lobbying, I don't mean to suggest that people are thinking, "Women are awful." is the only problem.

What are we talking about? I'm not disputing whether sexism exists, it does - as does racism and prejudice against every conceivable group including upper class white males. I'm just skeptical as any claim of a "gender war" seems overblown.

The way that you framed it, and continue to, of, essentially, there being harmony, is what I was confused by. Sexism exists, and effects women more than men, as a rule of thumb. Negativity is aimed at upper class white males, but has much less impact than that aimed at poor, non-white, women. Without those qualifications, I think you can see why I was taking umbrage?

I'm just asking for the data, and don't cite me the 82 cents for the dollar women earn or whatever it is now, as these studies have obvious shortcomings. They fail to scale for education, experience, qualifications, etc. I hear these claims a lot, but providing solid evidence is another story. Of course sexism exists, but men and women wouldn't want to be treated exactly the same regardless. I remember one study claiming that after all these factors were equalized that women actually earned more.
NixonianVolkswagen
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8/10/2012 5:39:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/10/2012 5:26:02 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 5:14:08 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:52:44 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:30:01 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:14:38 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 8/10/2012 4:06:00 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:16:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/10/2012 3:02:27 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/10/2012 2:42:09 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There is no gender war because there is no "team man" that pushes any collective effort to subjugate women. Any immediate sense of male solidarity is countered by a deep-seeded aversion to homosexuality in male culture. Of course that's not to say men won't tease women - of course they will, but they'll also tease their peers. It's really just how men interact.

There's no "team man", there are people who push for female inferiority.

And there are people getting screwed by feminist hypocrisy, who are on the defensive.

Like who, and in what proportion to those pushing for female inferiority?

Some feminists, and I don't know the proportions as I haven't seen any surveys. Also, inferior in what way? In sports - yes, I think a lot of men would agree with that. As human beings I'd venture to say it would be difficult to get the majority of men to sign off on that.

Some feminists thinking or saying some things isn't necessarily men getting messed around in a meaningful way. Like, if Congressmen are sexist against women a little bit, that probably matters more than a single academic who passionately hates men.

Well, there're people who are sexist for all sorts of reasons. Usually religion and/or culture has a hand in it. It's like how Americans generally prefer to have male children, for example (if offered only one). I phrased it poorly when I made it seem like the only measure of inequality was explicit lobbying, I don't mean to suggest that people are thinking, "Women are awful." is the only problem.

What are we talking about? I'm not disputing whether sexism exists, it does - as does racism and prejudice against every conceivable group including upper class white males. I'm just skeptical as any claim of a "gender war" seems overblown.

The way that you framed it, and continue to, of, essentially, there being harmony, is what I was confused by. Sexism exists, and effects women more than men, as a rule of thumb. Negativity is aimed at upper class white males, but has much less impact than that aimed at poor, non-white, women. Without those qualifications, I think you can see why I was taking umbrage?

I'm just asking for the data, and don't cite me the 82 cents for the dollar women earn or whatever it is now, as these studies have obvious shortcomings. They fail to scale for education, experience, qualifications, etc. I hear these claims a lot, but providing solid evidence is another story. Of course sexism exists, but men and women wouldn't want to be treated exactly the same regardless. I remember one study claiming that after all these factors were equalized that women actually earned more.

Yeah, I know, my criticism is that you're too fairminded and evenhanded. :P

Well, I guess here's a statistic which relates to culture: http://www.gallup.com... and an article, http://www.sciencedaily.com...

Although, it isn't clear that a part of why women earn less isn't because of sexism. Especially if doing the X and Y which gets you the good job is apportioned on a slightly sexist basis, it adds up.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper