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The Ryan-Rand controversy

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/15/2012 3:54:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What's your take on Paul Ryan abandoning his political hero because her Objectivism is an "atheistic philosophy"? I don't why, but I find the whole thing hilarious that the VP nominee would be tied to a figure so radically different from the status quo, with beliefs that would likely be considered heinous by the standards of western culture.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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8/15/2012 4:04:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Come on bro, you just linked a video from MSNBC. I stopped watching around the part where she said the Ryan Plan would increase taxes for the poor. I've actually READ the entire Ryan Plan and it does not increase anyone's taxes. Anyway, the media is invoking an age old fallacy: if you support some of a person's ideas, you must support all of that person's ideas!

That simply isn't true, and Ryan only rejected current aspects of Rand's philosophy. Either way, it is nice for Rand to be getting some good press, maybe more people will read her book.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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8/15/2012 4:10:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ya have you read any of her stuff? Fountainhead wasn't that great but if you read Atlas shrugged you realize it's a good story and you can take some of what Rand believed and leave other parts of it. You can be influenced by someone without subscribing to their philosophy in whole.
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NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/15/2012 4:13:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 4:04:23 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
Come on bro, you just linked a video from MSNBC. I stopped watching around the part where she said the Ryan Plan would increase taxes for the poor. I've actually READ the entire Ryan Plan and it does not increase anyone's taxes. Anyway, the media is invoking an age old fallacy: if you support some of a person's ideas, you must support all of that person's ideas!

That simply isn't true, and Ryan only rejected current aspects of Rand's philosophy. Either way, it is nice for Rand to be getting some good press, maybe more people will read her book.

Just because the plan doesn't say, "We're raising taxes." doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to the raising of taxes. It's like, I could write a bill saying that everyone should have $1000 from the Federal Government, and totally omit the obvious fact that it needs to be paid for.

In any case, Ayn Rand was infatuated with a murderer, and it shows in her prescriptions.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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8/15/2012 4:23:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just because the plan doesn't say, "We're raising taxes." doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to the raising of taxes. It's like, I could write a bill saying that everyone should have $1000 from the Federal Government, and totally omit the obvious fact that it needs to be paid for.

Ryan's plan is doing the opposite though; the plan is cutting billions of dollars in entitlements that the taxpayers have been paying for.

In any case, Ayn Rand was infatuated with a murderer, and it shows in her prescriptions.

She was infatuated with a murderer when she was a young adult. Are you really going to judge a person's entire life based on the values they held at age 18?
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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8/15/2012 4:37:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 4:13:57 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/15/2012 4:04:23 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
Come on bro, you just linked a video from MSNBC. I stopped watching around the part where she said the Ryan Plan would increase taxes for the poor. I've actually READ the entire Ryan Plan and it does not increase anyone's taxes. Anyway, the media is invoking an age old fallacy: if you support some of a person's ideas, you must support all of that person's ideas!

That simply isn't true, and Ryan only rejected current aspects of Rand's philosophy. Either way, it is nice for Rand to be getting some good press, maybe more people will read her book.

Just because the plan doesn't say, "We're raising taxes." doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to the raising of taxes. It's like, I could write a bill saying that everyone should have $1000 from the Federal Government, and totally omit the obvious fact that it needs to be paid for.

In any case, Ayn Rand was infatuated with a murderer, and it shows in her prescriptions.

Who would that be?
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NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/15/2012 4:46:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 4:23:31 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
Just because the plan doesn't say, "We're raising taxes." doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to the raising of taxes. It's like, I could write a bill saying that everyone should have $1000 from the Federal Government, and totally omit the obvious fact that it needs to be paid for.

Ryan's plan is doing the opposite though; the plan is cutting billions of dollars in entitlements that the taxpayers have been paying for.


"For households making less than $200,000, removing the tax deductions, making 401(k) contributions subject to taxes, and eliminating the exclusion for employer-provided health insurance outweighs the benefit of the lower tax rates in the Ryan plan. The net effect is that a typical household earning between $50,000 and $100,000 and filing jointly will face a tax increase under the Ryan plan of $1,358, assuming the additional income is taxed at a 10 percent rate." (page 3, "Winners and Losers: Understanding the Ryan Plan's Potential Tax Implications for America's Workers", United States Congress Joint Economic Committee)

In any case, Ayn Rand was infatuated with a murderer, and it shows in her prescriptions.

She was infatuated with a murderer when she was a young adult. Are you really going to judge a person's entire life based on the values they held at age 18?

Yes, in her early twenties, I think? I wasn't judging her whole life, just her prescriptions where they seemed to interrelate. She was probably charming in her own way, having a circle of admirers after all.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
JamesMadison
Posts: 381
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8/15/2012 4:48:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 4:13:57 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/15/2012 4:04:23 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
Come on bro, you just linked a video from MSNBC. I stopped watching around the part where she said the Ryan Plan would increase taxes for the poor. I've actually READ the entire Ryan Plan and it does not increase anyone's taxes. Anyway, the media is invoking an age old fallacy: if you support some of a person's ideas, you must support all of that person's ideas!

That simply isn't true, and Ryan only rejected current aspects of Rand's philosophy. Either way, it is nice for Rand to be getting some good press, maybe more people will read her book.

Just because the plan doesn't say, "We're raising taxes." doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to the raising of taxes. It's like, I could write a bill saying that everyone should have $1000 from the Federal Government, and totally omit the obvious fact that it needs to be paid for.

In any case, Ayn Rand was infatuated with a murderer, and it shows in her prescriptions.

Double Standard on taxes?
As a general rule, you'll find that, when a conservative is talking about policy, history, economics, or something serious, liberals are nowhere to be found. But, as soon as a conservative mentions Obama's birthplace or personal life, liberals are everywhere, only to dissappear again when evidence enters the discussion.
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/15/2012 4:49:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 4:37:31 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/15/2012 4:13:57 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/15/2012 4:04:23 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
Come on bro, you just linked a video from MSNBC. I stopped watching around the part where she said the Ryan Plan would increase taxes for the poor. I've actually READ the entire Ryan Plan and it does not increase anyone's taxes. Anyway, the media is invoking an age old fallacy: if you support some of a person's ideas, you must support all of that person's ideas!

That simply isn't true, and Ryan only rejected current aspects of Rand's philosophy. Either way, it is nice for Rand to be getting some good press, maybe more people will read her book.

Just because the plan doesn't say, "We're raising taxes." doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to the raising of taxes. It's like, I could write a bill saying that everyone should have $1000 from the Federal Government, and totally omit the obvious fact that it needs to be paid for.

In any case, Ayn Rand was infatuated with a murderer, and it shows in her prescriptions.

Who would that be?

William Edward Hickman. A pretty grisly customer, sadistically courageous in the face of others' deaths, cowardly in the face of his own.
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/15/2012 5:06:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 4:48:47 PM, JamesMadison wrote:
At 8/15/2012 4:13:57 PM, NixonianVolkswagen wrote:
At 8/15/2012 4:04:23 PM, MrBrooks wrote:
Come on bro, you just linked a video from MSNBC. I stopped watching around the part where she said the Ryan Plan would increase taxes for the poor. I've actually READ the entire Ryan Plan and it does not increase anyone's taxes. Anyway, the media is invoking an age old fallacy: if you support some of a person's ideas, you must support all of that person's ideas!

That simply isn't true, and Ryan only rejected current aspects of Rand's philosophy. Either way, it is nice for Rand to be getting some good press, maybe more people will read her book.

Just because the plan doesn't say, "We're raising taxes." doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to the raising of taxes. It's like, I could write a bill saying that everyone should have $1000 from the Federal Government, and totally omit the obvious fact that it needs to be paid for.

In any case, Ayn Rand was infatuated with a murderer, and it shows in her prescriptions.


Double Standard on taxes?

In what sense?
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/15/2012 5:06:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 3:54:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
What's your take on Paul Ryan abandoning his political hero because her Objectivism is an "atheistic philosophy"? I don't why, but I find the whole thing hilarious that the VP nominee would be tied to a figure so radically different from the status quo, with beliefs that would likely be considered heinous by the standards of western culture.

You are freakin' hilarious. First of all, linking an MSNBC video in which the commentators state that the Ryan plan supposedly raises taxes on the middle class is disingenuous and ridiculous. Second of all, Rand's views aren't "heinous." I dare you to find me one of her views that would be considered "heinous" OR that aren't true- you won't be able to. Third, you're funny. Did I say that already? You should be a comedian.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/15/2012 6:22:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 5:06:25 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/15/2012 3:54:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
What's your take on Paul Ryan abandoning his political hero because her Objectivism is an "atheistic philosophy"? I don't why, but I find the whole thing hilarious that the VP nominee would be tied to a figure so radically different from the status quo, with beliefs that would likely be considered heinous by the standards of western culture.

You are freakin' hilarious. First of all, linking an MSNBC video in which the commentators state that the Ryan plan supposedly raises taxes on the middle class is disingenuous and ridiculous. Second of all, Rand's views aren't "heinous." I dare you to find me one of her views that would be considered "heinous" OR that aren't true- you won't be able to. Third, you're funny. Did I say that already? You should be a comedian.

You're an arrogant little idiot aren't you? I really should cool down before responding to your half-baked posts.

1. I didn't actually make a claim in posting the video. It was merely support on the fact that Ryan is distancing himself from his hero just because he's the VP nominee. I more so asked you and other posters what they thought of the situation.

2. Rand's philosophy was one of selfishness, she outright condemned altruism and romanticized the glutinously rich. Needless to say, that's a wildly unpopular set of beliefs to espouse in America. Thus many Americans would consider it heinous.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/15/2012 6:26:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 6:22:43 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/15/2012 5:06:25 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/15/2012 3:54:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
What's your take on Paul Ryan abandoning his political hero because her Objectivism is an "atheistic philosophy"? I don't why, but I find the whole thing hilarious that the VP nominee would be tied to a figure so radically different from the status quo, with beliefs that would likely be considered heinous by the standards of western culture.

You are freakin' hilarious. First of all, linking an MSNBC video in which the commentators state that the Ryan plan supposedly raises taxes on the middle class is disingenuous and ridiculous. Second of all, Rand's views aren't "heinous." I dare you to find me one of her views that would be considered "heinous" OR that aren't true- you won't be able to. Third, you're funny. Did I say that already? You should be a comedian.

You're an arrogant little idiot aren't you? I really should cool down before responding to your half-baked posts.

BWAHAHAHA! ROFL! I'm loving your useless insults here.

1. I didn't actually make a claim in posting the video. It was merely support on the fact that Ryan is distancing himself from his hero just because he's the VP nominee. I more so asked you and other posters what they thought of the situation.

Yeah, you really did make a claim.

" so radically different from the status quo, with beliefs that would likely be considered heinous by the standards of western culture."

Claim: Verb:
State or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

http://www.google.ca...

You asserted something (that Rand's views are heinous) with no evidence or proof.

2. Rand's philosophy was one of selfishness, she outright condemned altruism and romanticized the glutinously rich.

She condemned altruism for those that have no value to you, which makes perfect sense. Altruism is not natural for any organisms other than to kin.

Needless to say, that's a wildly unpopular set of beliefs to espouse in America. Thus many Americans would consider it heinous.

You think so? 'Cause our entire system revolves around selfishness and pseudo-altruism.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."