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Abortion related question

joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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8/18/2012 10:39:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A women is pregnant say 2 weeks gets killed in a car accident on her way to an abortion clinic to get an abortion. The accident was caused by a drunk driver. Does the driver who caused the accident charged with two counts of murder or just one?
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/18/2012 10:48:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/18/2012 10:39:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
A women is pregnant say 2 weeks gets killed in a car accident on her way to an abortion clinic to get an abortion. The accident was caused by a drunk driver. Does the driver who caused the accident charged with two counts of murder or just one?

None.

He should get two counts of manslaughter though.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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8/18/2012 10:51:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/18/2012 10:48:06 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/18/2012 10:39:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
A women is pregnant say 2 weeks gets killed in a car accident on her way to an abortion clinic to get an abortion. The accident was caused by a drunk driver. Does the driver who caused the accident charged with two counts of murder or just one?

None.

He should get two counts of manslaughter though.

Yea I saw that but twas too late. Anyways, just curious if anyone would be able to answer this.
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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8/18/2012 11:07:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Legally, she would face two counts of whatever charge the prosecution decides on pursuing (likely intoxication manslaughter).

Also, where her destination was is irrelevant to the prosecution and guilt of the party that allegedly committed the crime.
Sapere Aude!
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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8/18/2012 11:07:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/18/2012 10:39:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
A women is pregnant say 2 weeks gets killed in a car accident on her way to an abortion clinic to get an abortion. The accident was caused by a drunk driver. Does the driver who caused the accident charged with two counts of murder or just one?

Depends on the state, but this was a huge issue during the Scott Peterson trial.

In some states, yes. In others, not at two weeks. It is my personal belief, however, that regardless of how developed the pregnancy was, because not aborting a child implies present intention to carry the child/fetus to term, that whenever a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer should be charged with two counts of [murder/manslaughter/etc.].
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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8/18/2012 11:15:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/18/2012 11:07:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/18/2012 10:39:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
A women is pregnant say 2 weeks gets killed in a car accident on her way to an abortion clinic to get an abortion. The accident was caused by a drunk driver. Does the driver who caused the accident charged with two counts of murder or just one?

Depends on the state, but this was a huge issue during the Scott Peterson trial.

In some states, yes. In others, not at two weeks. It is my personal belief, however, that regardless of how developed the pregnancy was, because not aborting a child implies present intention to carry the child/fetus to term, that whenever a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer should be charged with two counts of [murder/manslaughter/etc.].

Additionally, if she's only two weeks pregnant it's doubtful she's on her way to an abortion. She probably doesn't even know she's pregnant yet and if she does, the abortion clinic won't admit her. They usually wait until five or six weeks so they can make sure they don't leave any pieces behind, as gruesome as that sounds.

But I believe you're generally correct. In California, the drunk driver would likely be charged with two counts of manslaughter, but in Colorado only one. In the recent massacre in Colorado, the gunman killed 15 people and among the casualties was a pregnant woman's unborn child. The death of the unborn child didn't add a charge of murder, as California did in the Scott Petersen trial.
YYW
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8/18/2012 11:27:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/18/2012 11:15:24 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 8/18/2012 11:07:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/18/2012 10:39:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
A women is pregnant say 2 weeks gets killed in a car accident on her way to an abortion clinic to get an abortion. The accident was caused by a drunk driver. Does the driver who caused the accident charged with two counts of murder or just one?

Depends on the state, but this was a huge issue during the Scott Peterson trial.

In some states, yes. In others, not at two weeks. It is my personal belief, however, that regardless of how developed the pregnancy was, because not aborting a child implies present intention to carry the child/fetus to term, that whenever a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer should be charged with two counts of [murder/manslaughter/etc.].

Additionally, if she's only two weeks pregnant it's doubtful she's on her way to an abortion. She probably doesn't even know she's pregnant yet and if she does, the abortion clinic won't admit her. They usually wait until five or six weeks so they can make sure they don't leave any pieces behind, as gruesome as that sounds.

But I believe you're generally correct. In California, the drunk driver would likely be charged with two counts of manslaughter, but in Colorado only one. In the recent massacre in Colorado, the gunman killed 15 people and among the casualties was a pregnant woman's unborn child. The death of the unborn child didn't add a charge of murder, as California did in the Scott Petersen trial.

As a general rule, Colorado is a fvcked up state -for so many reasons I don't even feel it necessary to substantiate that claim.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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8/18/2012 11:45:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lolz I understand her destination was irrelevant and that she probably did not know she was pregnant. I only mentioned the destination because someone I was speaking to once before thought it was but I know it is not.

Obviously the question revolves around wether or not a fetus is considered a human or not. Would I be wrong to expect the states that would charge for two counts of manslaughter to consider the fetus a human being even in abortion contexts? I read recently Canadas largest medical group or w/e defined the fetus only being human once it has left the mothers womb. I just kinda feel its hypocritical to count a fetus as human in one context and not in another. Maybe I am missing something.
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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8/18/2012 11:46:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/18/2012 11:45:15 PM, joneszj wrote:
Lolz I understand her destination was irrelevant and that she probably did not know she was pregnant. I only mentioned the destination because someone I was speaking to once before thought it was but I know it is not.

Obviously the question revolves around wether or not a fetus is considered a human or not. Would I be wrong to expect the states that would charge for two counts of manslaughter to consider the fetus a human being even in abortion contexts? I read recently Canadas largest medical group or w/e defined the fetus only being human once it has left the mothers womb. I just kinda feel its hypocritical to count a fetus as human in one context and not in another. Maybe I am missing something.
No. It's just a legal inconsistency. In cases of death of the fetus, though it varies by state, the fetus's death is charged as a second victim. But abortions are legal.
Sapere Aude!
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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8/18/2012 11:48:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/18/2012 11:45:15 PM, joneszj wrote:
Lolz I understand her destination was irrelevant and that she probably did not know she was pregnant. I only mentioned the destination because someone I was speaking to once before thought it was but I know it is not.

Obviously the question revolves around wether or not a fetus is considered a human or not. Would I be wrong to expect the states that would charge for two counts of manslaughter to consider the fetus a human being even in abortion contexts? I read recently Canadas largest medical group or w/e defined the fetus only being human once it has left the mothers womb. I just kinda feel its hypocritical to count a fetus as human in one context and not in another. Maybe I am missing something.

The US Supreme Court has determined that a fetus gets rights (i.e. becomes a human) at the point of viability (usually about 22 weeks). I generally tend to agree with Sandra Day O'Conner (P.P. of PA v. Casey) more than I agree with Canada... that being said, however, it is safe to assume that the fetus/child would have otherwise lived... but even still that is beyond the point. Only the mother/pregnant woman get's to make the call. I know it's sketchy... and contradictory, but cognitive dissonance has never been something that's kept me awake at night -insomnia does that very nicely.
YYW
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8/18/2012 11:50:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Recognize though that I don't hate Canada... just their legal system. Montreal is a cool place... Vancouver even more so.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/19/2012 1:45:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/18/2012 10:39:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
A women is pregnant say 2 weeks gets killed in a car accident on her way to an abortion clinic to get an abortion. The accident was caused by a drunk driver. Does the driver who caused the accident charged with two counts of murder or just one?

Say the women is 10 months pregnant, and get hits on the way to the hospital in order to have the baby delivered; 1 count or 2 counts?

Say a mother gets hit on the way back from the hospital, with the baby in the back seat; 1 count or 2 counts?

Honestly I think the death of a pregnant women should be considered 2 counts. It's completely arbitrary to determining how far along during the pregnancy a mother should be before it counts as 2 victims. Furthermore it is illogical to claim that a baby about to be born should not have the same rights as a baby who was just born.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
joneszj
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8/19/2012 1:57:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 1:45:16 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/18/2012 10:39:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
A women is pregnant say 2 weeks gets killed in a car accident on her way to an abortion clinic to get an abortion. The accident was caused by a drunk driver. Does the driver who caused the accident charged with two counts of murder or just one?

Say the women is 10 months pregnant, and get hits on the way to the hospital in order to have the baby delivered; 1 count or 2 counts?

Say a mother gets hit on the way back from the hospital, with the baby in the back seat; 1 count or 2 counts?

Honestly I think the death of a pregnant women should be considered 2 counts. It's completely arbitrary to determining how far along during the pregnancy a mother should be before it counts as 2 victims. Furthermore it is illogical to claim that a baby about to be born should not have the same rights as a baby who was just born.

"Honestly I think the death of a pregnant women should be considered 2 counts. "

So the death of a pregnant women = two human deaths. Would you also say that abortion is then also the termination of a human being?
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/19/2012 12:50:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Since a fetus is not legally classified as a human entity, there is no reason why criminal action would be pursued on its behalf.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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8/19/2012 12:57:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Morally it would be the same thing as accidentally forcing a woman to have an abortion, regardless of whether she was going to have an abortion or not.
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