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Statutory rape and child porn

DanT
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8/22/2012 5:23:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Statutory rape, and child porn are two subjects that are supported out of sheer moral principle, with no consideration for the actual statutes.

The age of consent varies greatly from state to state, and country to country. Why is it that a 16 year old in NH is mature enough for sex, but not a 16 year old in New York? In addition to this, age is not the only thing considered. If someone's IQ is too low, or they have a high IQ but are autistic, no matter their age their family could (in many states) press charges against their partner. In other words; legally autistic people or retarded people can never have sex; according to the law they must die a virgin.
Another issue that arises is that two consenting adults cannot have sexual relations, if one of the partners is in a position of authority. That is to say, if you can't have sex with your tutor or professor; you can't have sex with your landlord you can't have sex with your martial arts sensei; you can't have sex with your doctor; you can't have sex with your boss; you can't have sex with the governor, and so and so forth.

Now in regards to child porn. Many kids are being charged with possession and distribution of child porn; either because they are sexting pictures of themselves, or passing the pictures onto someone else.
If your grandma has a picture of you in a bubble bath, or on a bearskin rug, she can be charged with possession of child porn.

I think the laws regarding statutory rape and child porn should be altered, to avoid innocent people from being lumped in with actual sexual offenders.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
16kadams
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8/22/2012 11:33:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In some child porn kids are raped at the age of 19 days old...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
DanT
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8/22/2012 11:44:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/22/2012 11:33:35 PM, 16kadams wrote:
In some child porn kids are raped at the age of 19 days old...

I'm not saying that should not be a crime, I'm saying the law does not distinguish between that, and a teenager sexting to her boyfriend.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Aaronroy
Posts: 749
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8/23/2012 1:32:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In terms to statutory rape; I don't care. As long as that person is willingly consenting (and not inflicted with a mental illness that's severity would diminish the value of the consent), it's whatever.

In terms to child porn, when does this even happen? I don't go online and fine bags and bags and bags of child porn. I don't really have a moral objection to child porn but rather a practical objection; one has to be 18 years of age or older to be a pornographic actor. A case or two or some weirdos having child porn doesn't warrant the State/Government reason to censor the internet.
turn down for h'what
Frederick53
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8/23/2012 1:46:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At my high school a while back they told us at an assembly that if we sexted each other we would be charged with possession of child pornography and treated by the judiciary system as adult sexual predators.

Fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck fvck that.
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adontimasu
Posts: 93
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8/23/2012 2:46:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/22/2012 11:33:35 PM, 16kadams wrote:
In some child porn kids are raped at the age of 19 days old...

How would you know that?
Chaos88
Posts: 247
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8/23/2012 3:34:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I get what you are saying, but you have to take the good with the bad.

Statutory rape: yes, consenting adults should be free from prosecution. However, in the cases of psychologists, hypnotists, or similar professions, consent can be manipulated. Also, stat. rape usually has age restrictions, like a 16 yr old can have sex, but not with anyone over 36 months their age. Again, this goes to manipulation, like a 40 yr old trolling malls to pick up 16 yr olds with offers of booze and being treated like an adult.

Child porn: I have never heard of Grandma being arrested for possessing a bath photo, nor a teen arrested for having "dirty pictures" of themselves. However, by sending it to people, this is disseminating photos, and while the intention is not perverted (at least with Grandma), it is the act that is in question. If we allowed this, why not post naked baby pictures everywhere and let pedophiles have their dirty thoughts?

The issue is, how do you say no to one act for one purpose, and yes to the exact same act by a different individual with a different purpose. Legally, they must be treated equally. Unless, we decide we go after the thought behind the act, and not the act itself, which takes us down a dangerous road.

How do you propose rewriting these laws to avoid this conflict?

To me, this is akin to the known murderer getting off because he asked for his lawyer, and the police refused, then said where the body was hidden. The law cuts both ways, and should not make exceptions.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/24/2012 12:15:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:46:53 AM, adontimasu wrote:
At 8/22/2012 11:33:35 PM, 16kadams wrote:
In some child porn kids are raped at the age of 19 days old...

How would you know that?

Best way to find out is to be a "high level officer" in the federal government's child porn database. Clearance to fap to your heart's content.

Science tells us homophobes are really just people who get boners when they see homo porn. Not hard to extrapolate.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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8/24/2012 1:17:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 3:34:21 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
The issue is, how do you say no to one act for one purpose, and yes to the exact same act by a different individual with a different purpose. Legally, they must be treated equally. Unless, we decide we go after the thought behind the act, and not the act itself, which takes us down a dangerous road.

How do you propose rewriting these laws to avoid this conflict?

It's not exactly hard. The way you describe it someone hacking your phone and distributing nude photos of you without your consent and distributing the photos yourself are "the same act".

In reality they are two completely different acts with completely different ethical and legal consequences.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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8/24/2012 1:21:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Some states have statutory rape laws that consider age differences. An eighteen year-old having sex with a 15 year old is nowhere near as serious as a 40 year old with a 15-ear old. Children do tend to trust authority figures, and nee to be protected from abuse. There is good science establishing that brain's aility to make judgements of consequences is not fully developed until about 21.

Te deal with applying child porn laws to sexting is to force teens into counseling, so they can be given a lecture about the meaning of stupid. The notion is that the photos ill reappear when you are running for Congress, and then you would have thought better of it. Alo, pix may end up sold to commercial pornographers or child molesters. The charges are always pleaded down to counseling

I think the sexting police idea is out-of-date for, say, ages 16+. But I'm not sure. Note that Massachusetts Senator Scott Brown was elected despite having posed nude. Few cared in Massachusetts.
Chaos88
Posts: 247
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8/24/2012 2:23:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:17:11 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 8/23/2012 3:34:21 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
The issue is, how do you say no to one act for one purpose, and yes to the exact same act by a different individual with a different purpose. Legally, they must be treated equally. Unless, we decide we go after the thought behind the act, and not the act itself, which takes us down a dangerous road.

How do you propose rewriting these laws to avoid this conflict?

It's not exactly hard. The way you describe it someone hacking your phone and distributing nude photos of you without your consent and distributing the photos yourself are "the same act".

Not so simple. If the photo is sent to me, it is my property, right? So, I can then resend it to whom I like. You have no control over it. So, if you send me your naked picture, that is okay, but if I send it to my friend, that's illegal?

Hacking into a phone is already illegal, I believe, regardless as to purpose.

In reality they are two completely different acts with completely different ethical and legal consequences.

Using my analogy over yours, there are ethical differences, but no more so than telling people your ex's secrets. I do not see a legal distinction between the two, as both involve allowing others to see a naked picture that one possesses and is in control of.
If anything, if the police were to arrest someone for a naked teen pic for impure thoughts, who is more guilty: the "child" who sends a pic of themselves to turn someone on, or the receiver who shares the pic to get revenge after a breakup?
Korashk
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8/24/2012 2:29:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 2:23:24 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:17:11 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 8/23/2012 3:34:21 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
The issue is, how do you say no to one act for one purpose, and yes to the exact same act by a different individual with a different purpose. Legally, they must be treated equally. Unless, we decide we go after the thought behind the act, and not the act itself, which takes us down a dangerous road.

How do you propose rewriting these laws to avoid this conflict?

It's not exactly hard. The way you describe it someone hacking your phone and distributing nude photos of you without your consent and distributing the photos yourself are "the same act".

Not so simple. If the photo is sent to me, it is my property, right?

Not necessarily. If somebody steals your car and sells it to another person the car is still yours.

So, I can then resend it to whom I like. You have no control over it. So, if you send me your naked picture, that is okay, but if I send it to my friend, that's illegal?

Not the situation you or I were initially describing.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Chaos88
Posts: 247
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8/24/2012 3:38:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 2:29:14 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 8/24/2012 2:23:24 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:17:11 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 8/23/2012 3:34:21 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
The issue is, how do you say no to one act for one purpose, and yes to the exact same act by a different individual with a different purpose. Legally, they must be treated equally. Unless, we decide we go after the thought behind the act, and not the act itself, which takes us down a dangerous road.

How do you propose rewriting these laws to avoid this conflict?

It's not exactly hard. The way you describe it someone hacking your phone and distributing nude photos of you without your consent and distributing the photos yourself are "the same act".

Not so simple. If the photo is sent to me, it is my property, right?

Not necessarily. If somebody steals your car and sells it to another person the car is still yours.

Not if I gave them the car. You are talking about theft, I am talking about gifts.

So, I can then resend it to whom I like. You have no control over it. So, if you send me your naked picture, that is okay, but if I send it to my friend, that's illegal?

Not the situation you or I were initially describing.

I initially described someone sending information, not stealing it. Theft is a separate issue, and would compound the crime. The issue at hand is whether sending it is a crime, and separating that from someone with alterior motives sending (or even possessing) the very same picture.

Regardless if you or I initally described the situation, what is your take?
YYW
Posts: 36,256
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8/24/2012 6:37:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:21:49 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
Some states have statutory rape laws that consider age differences. An eighteen year-old having sex with a 15 year old is nowhere near as serious as a 40 year old with a 15-ear old. Children do tend to trust authority figures, and nee to be protected from abuse. There is good science establishing that brain's aility to make judgements of consequences is not fully developed until about 21.

Te deal with applying child porn laws to sexting is to force teens into counseling, so they can be given a lecture about the meaning of stupid. The notion is that the photos ill reappear when you are running for Congress, and then you would have thought better of it. Alo, pix may end up sold to commercial pornographers or child molesters. The charges are always pleaded down to counseling

I think the sexting police idea is out-of-date for, say, ages 16+. But I'm not sure. Note that Massachusetts Senator Scott Brown was elected despite having posed nude. Few cared in Massachusetts.

Well said.

The basic issue with regards to sexting and other 'illicit' forms of communication among kids is this: the law is attempting to balance the interest of protecting the privacy of underage -and immature- kids with the personal liberty of the very same individuals. Ostensibly it may seem that laws regulating sexually explicit imagery of persons under the age of 18 contradict age of consent laws, but after a bit of rational consideration it's not hard to understand the different intent in both cases.

Usually at the beginning of puberty, sexual interest emerges. Such is the reason that parents have "the birds and the bees" conversation around that time with their children (or at least mine did). While it is perfectly acceptable for, say, a fourteen year old and another fourteen year old to be interested in one another, it's not exactly appropriate for an 18, 19 or 20 year old (for example) to express interest in someone 14 years of age because of the maturity gap that exists. Now, by the time someone hits their 20s or 30s it's less of an issue (as in it would be perfectly appropriate for a 21 year old guy to date a 26 year old girl), because the age difference doesn't correlate to a significant emotional/developmental or maturity difference, whereas in the former case, it most certainly does. I will state, though, that it is my personal opinion that people generally shouldn't send sexually explicit images of themselves to others -but I recognize that I am most likely in the minority here.

I would add, though, that the way child porn laws are currently structured (where the penalties are high, but the charges can be pleased down where it is in fact, a child, being charged as such) is overwhelmingly the best way to go. The reason is that the stringent punishments categorically disincentivize individuals who have prurient interests from acting on them, while at the same time affording district attorneys the discretion to tailor charges appropriate to the circumstances. This both prevents a kid who exercised bad judgement from having the rest of their life ruined (under most circumstances) and gives society a way to keep pedophiles off the streets.

While it is possible that a kid under the age of 18 could find themselves on a sex offender list, even still I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. Theoretically, it would stand to reason that the potential for incredibly bad consequences might occasion underage individuals to think twice before sexting (which I think is a good thing), although I make room for the possibility that there could be many exceptions to that rule -which I'm not necessarily concerned with for the reasons stated above. As a general rule, kids shouldn't be sending illicit pictures of themselves to anyone.

Statutory rape, though, is more difficult. In some places, the age of consent is as low as 14 (although I think in a few asian countries it is even lower). It is my view that in many cases this is a thing of cultural subjectivity, rather than a categorical moral absolute. In the united states, kids are encouraged not to grow up. Adolescence as a concept now often extends in practice at times into ones mid-twenties or even early thirties. Some never grow up. By contrast, in ancient Israel at the age of 13 a boy became a man, had full responsibilities in the community and was expected to behave as such.

In my view the age of consent should loosely correlate with the age of accountability, but that's a standard as arbitrary as any. In the United States the theoretical age of majority is 18, but irrationality and social do-gooderism resulted in a drinking age of 21, a driving age generally around 17, and the right to vote in between. At 18, although a person is legally an adult, they don't enjoy the full rights of an adult, for such reason as none good have been offered. To further add to the clusterfuck, a 12 year old can be sentenced in Texas to life in prison, after being charged for murder "as an adult."

The theory behind the distinction between "juvenile" and "adult" offenders is that the former are at once less responsible for their actions and more able to be rehabilitated, whereas the latter are more accountable and less able to be rehabilitated. The line of demarcation between the two, somehow, is 18. It is what it is. It gets dicey when trying to apply that metric to consent laws though, especially when there is no definitive cultural expectation for when a person is obliged to "come of age." I don't see the situation improving any time soon.
Tsar of DDO
16kadams
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8/24/2012 8:12:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:46:53 AM, adontimasu wrote:
At 8/22/2012 11:33:35 PM, 16kadams wrote:
In some child porn kids are raped at the age of 19 days old...

How would you know that?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/24/2012 10:59:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:17:11 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 8/23/2012 3:34:21 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
The issue is, how do you say no to one act for one purpose, and yes to the exact same act by a different individual with a different purpose. Legally, they must be treated equally. Unless, we decide we go after the thought behind the act, and not the act itself, which takes us down a dangerous road.

How do you propose rewriting these laws to avoid this conflict?

It's not exactly hard. The way you describe it someone hacking your phone and distributing nude photos of you without your consent and distributing the photos yourself are "the same act".

In reality they are two completely different acts with completely different ethical and legal consequences.

Not to mention the reason it is illegal is because of the thought. Nude photos of children shouldn't be considered child porn, because the context that makes it taboo depends on the thoughts of the person viewing the image. Unless the child is preforming a sexual act (like groping themselves) it should not be considered child porn.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/24/2012 11:09:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sounds like the real argument isn't whether or not statutory rape/child porn should be illegal, but rather some consistency throughout the law.

No minor should be considered "breaking the law" for sexting their boy/girlfriend. That's obviously dumb, when the whole point of the law assumes that minors do not have the full mental capacity to fully appreciate what they are doing or what they are consenting to. Therefore, a minor sexting another minor, or a minor engaging in a sexual act with another minor, or a minor viewing porn should not be a "crime."

When you break the threshold, then all bets are off. And, to the OP, yes, laws are often subjective. They can't account for every single exception. In order for law to work, there has to be a clear line of demarcation.

Case in point: If the speed limit is posted at 65 MPH, most drivers can safely drive at 80 MPH's. But the limit exists to serve the lowest common denominator. The police can't determine off-hand whether you're an excellent driver or a sh*tty one in a chance encounter. So the limit is set with some buffer room (i.e. not pulling you over for going 3 MPH over the limit).

Same with minors. Sure, we all know some 18 year old's level of maturity exceeds that of some 60 year old's. But no one can sit there and subjectively make that determination on the spot. That's why a definitive line of demarcation exists.

And even then, judges and police have the ability to take the spirit of the law into consideration. If an extenuating circumstance CLEARLY exists, then the letter of the law is not always appropriate.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Chaos88
Posts: 247
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8/24/2012 4:16:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 10:59:11 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:17:11 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 8/23/2012 3:34:21 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
The issue is, how do you say no to one act for one purpose, and yes to the exact same act by a different individual with a different purpose. Legally, they must be treated equally. Unless, we decide we go after the thought behind the act, and not the act itself, which takes us down a dangerous road.

How do you propose rewriting these laws to avoid this conflict?

It's not exactly hard. The way you describe it someone hacking your phone and distributing nude photos of you without your consent and distributing the photos yourself are "the same act".

In reality they are two completely different acts with completely different ethical and legal consequences.

Not to mention the reason it is illegal is because of the thought. Nude photos of children shouldn't be considered child porn, because the context that makes it taboo depends on the thoughts of the person viewing the image. Unless the child is preforming a sexual act (like groping themselves) it should not be considered child porn.

Fair enough, but what about sending those pictures or displaying them? If my mother had a naked picture of me in the bath, and then posted that on Facebook, there is nothing sinister about that, right? But if my uncle did it, maybe not? It gets dicey.
Furthermore, in the example of sexting, the thought is exactly what the law is trying to prevent.