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Minimum Wage

comoncents
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9/11/2009 8:07:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Should Minimum Wage be abolished?

the more i look into it, i see that it should be abolished... any really good reasons why or why not.
JBlake
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9/11/2009 9:50:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It provides people with a minimum standard of living.

It helps prevent widespread and extensive exploitation of American labor.
comoncents
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9/11/2009 10:07:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 9:50:21 PM, JBlake wrote:
It provides people with a minimum standard of living.

It helps prevent widespread and extensive exploitation of American labor.

but the MW is not enough to provide a standard of living...

but american labor has been more extensively exploited since MW
JBlake
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9/11/2009 11:55:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 10:07:45 PM, comoncents wrote:
but the MW is not enough to provide a standard of living...

but american labor has been more extensively exploited since MW

It provides enough of a standard to survive starvation. Without a minimum, certainly some wages would be lower. So are you advocating a higher minimum wage that provides a higher standard of living?

How has American labor been more extensively exploited since the minimum wage. You'll have to excuse me if I do not accept your claim without supporting evidence...
comoncents
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9/12/2009 12:14:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org...
http://townhall.com...

Economic principles dictate that when government imposes a minimum wage rate above the market wage rate, it creates a surplus `wedge' between the supply of labor and the demand for labor, leading to an increase in unemployment. Employers cannot simply begin paying more to workers whose marginal productivity does not meet or exceed the law-imposed wage. The only course of action available to the employer is to mechanize operations or employ a higher-skilled worker whose output meets or exceeds the `minimum wage.' This, of course, has the advantage of giving the skilled worker an additional (and government-enforced) advantage over the unskilled worker. For example, where formerly an employer had the option of hiring three unskilled workers at $5 per hour or one skilled worker at $16 per hour, a minimum wage of $6 suddenly leaves the employer only the choice of the skilled worker at an additional cost of $1 per hour. I would ask my colleagues, if the minimum wage is the means to prosperity, why stop at $6.65--why not $50, $75, or $100 per hour?

Walter Williams, a very astute free-market economist, has studied this extensively, and he has found that prior to minimum wage laws there was no discrepancy like this. So he put a lot of blame on the minimum wage law. Once government gets interfering, this takes away opportunities. And I believe there is a lot of truth to this because it eliminates an opportunity and a chance for a marginal worker. I have a bill in that might help a lot of people, Black or white or whomever. I have a bill in that would immediately help these people who are trying to get a start, that they would never have to pay any taxes or payroll taxes, if they just happen to be a waiter or a waitress, to give them a chance to get ahead and get a good job.
Rezzealaux
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9/12/2009 12:21:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Minimum Wage: Why America's Unemployment Rate Is Staying In The Double Digits

And anti-discriminatory pay laws too, along with anything else in that area.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
comoncents
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9/12/2009 12:26:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 12:21:24 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Minimum Wage: Why America's Unemployment Rate Is Staying In The Double Digits

And anti-discriminatory pay laws too, along with anything else in that area.

good point
JBlake
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9/12/2009 12:39:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 12:21:24 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Minimum Wage: Why America's Unemployment Rate Is Staying In The Double Digits

And anti-discriminatory pay laws too, along with anything else in that area.

The rate only recently reached double digits. The obvious factor is the global downturn and not the minimum wage. Unemployment will not remain in double digits long.
comoncents
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9/12/2009 12:59:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 12:39:15 AM, JBlake wrote:
At 9/12/2009 12:21:24 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Minimum Wage: Why America's Unemployment Rate Is Staying In The Double Digits

And anti-discriminatory pay laws too, along with anything else in that area.

The rate only recently reached double digits. The obvious factor is the global downturn and not the minimum wage. Unemployment will not remain in double digits long.

abolish minimum wage and it will end unemployment large numbers.
http://www.cuca.org.uk...
Rezzealaux
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9/12/2009 1:00:51 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 12:39:15 AM, JBlake wrote:
At 9/12/2009 12:21:24 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Minimum Wage: Why America's Unemployment Rate Is Staying In The Double Digits

And anti-discriminatory pay laws too, along with anything else in that area.

The rate only recently reached double digits. The obvious factor is the global downturn and not the minimum wage. Unemployment will not remain in double digits long.

The numbers all depend on where you look, though that wasn't exactly my point.

"Global downturn" does not explain high and growing unemployment levels without also bringing minimum wage laws (and anti-discriminatory laws, etc. etc. etc.) into view.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Volkov
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9/12/2009 1:12:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 12:59:37 AM, comoncents wrote:
abolish minimum wage and it will end unemployment large numbers.
http://www.cuca.org.uk...

I somehow doubt this.

Abolish minimum wage and yes, you'll be able to have more people employed, but I'm fairly sure the standard of living will go down - if people believe that somehow, employers will start paying more than the minimum wage if it was abolished, I have to ask what they're smoking, because really; if a high minimum wage is already costing employers, what makes people think that they'll pay more after its abolished?

And I have no idea how anti-discrimination laws are hurting employment numbers. Because there is a law saying you can't deny employment to a black man based on his skin colour, employment goes down? Doesn't make sense.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/12/2009 7:29:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 8:07:37 PM, comoncents wrote:
Should Minimum Wage be abolished?

the more i look into it, i see that it should be abolished... any really good reasons why or why not.

If the minimum wage is abolished then your wage becomes subject to the whim of market forces, you may be okay if you are a profressional but the bulk of society will ultimately be forced to work for a pittance and as a result society itself would be harmed. A person must be paid a living wage, i.e. an income that they can actually support themselves with.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Rezzealaux
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9/12/2009 8:03:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 1:12:18 AM, Volkov wrote:
Abolish minimum wage and yes, you'll be able to have more people employed, but I'm fairly sure the standard of living will go down
As with all government regulation, it is like a drug. Of course bad things will happen when the government steps out - at least, in the short while - because there will be withdrawal effects. If a person was living off of inheritance all their life, of course their life would suck horribly once they ran out of it. But very quickly (and by this I mean in relative adaptivity to the government's) everything will settle back into place and things will start moving again.

- if people believe that somehow, employers will start paying more than the minimum wage if it was abolished, I have to ask what they're smoking, because really; if a high minimum wage is already costing employers, what makes people think that they'll pay more after its abolished?
Higher in terms of dollars, no. Higher in terms of money, yes.

And I have no idea how anti-discrimination laws are hurting employment numbers. Because there is a law saying you can't deny employment to a black man based on his skin colour, employment goes down? Doesn't make sense.
I will c/p something from an article (), but I encourage you to go read the full thing. It's not that long, took a page when I printed it out to read on the bus.

[...]Another common misconception about employment is that the employer is buying the employee's labor. However, the employer is not buying the employee's labor per se; he is buying the employee's productive ability. In general, the goal of a businessman is to maximize production while minimizing cost, thereby maximizing revenue and profits. That is the reason that machines have replaced so much of human labor; machines are more productive, cost less, and free up people to do jobs that machines cannot do. Thus, discrepancies in pay are not always due to discrimination, but to the perception, real or otherwise, that one employee is more productive than another.

The unintended consequence of the laws prohibiting discriminatory pay is that they, like minimum-wage laws, will harm the people that they are intended to help. In a free society, individuals enter into contracts of their own accord with the assumption that the contract will benefit them. Government interference in private contracts prevents this process from taking place, hindering the individual's ability to improve his standard of living and usurping control over his life.

By mandating equal pay, the government erases the competitive advantage of those people who are willing to take less pay. In addition, employers are less willing to hire employees who they believe could subject them to increased liability. Thus, instead of equalizing pay between men and women, the Ledbetter Act will lead to higher unemployment rates among women.[...]


At 9/12/2009 7:29:21 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If the minimum wage is abolished then your wage becomes subject to the whim of market forces,
I fail to see the issue. Are you advocating mercantalism?

you may be okay if you are a profressional but the bulk of society will ultimately be forced to work for a pittance and as a result society itself would be harmed.
I'm sorry, I think I have a pretty good understanding of basic economics, and by extension, I think you don't. How in the hell does free market (and by this I don't mean a US fascist/socialist/"mixed economy" system) force people to work for a "pittance"? I will gladly give my argument as to why the free market does not, but I'd like to tailor my refutation to yours. Would you like to give me your contention?

A person must be paid a living wage, i.e. an income that they can actually support themselves with.
Yes, please give the argument. All that is, right there, is an emotional appeal.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Rezzealaux
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9/12/2009 8:05:02 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 8:03:26 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/12/2009 1:12:18 AM, Volkov wrote:
Abolish minimum wage and yes, you'll be able to have more people employed, but I'm fairly sure the standard of living will go down
As with all government regulation, it is like a drug. Of course bad things will happen when the government steps out - at least, in the short while - because there will be withdrawal effects. If a person was living off of inheritance all their life, of course their life would suck horribly once they ran out of it. But very quickly (and by this I mean in relative adaptivity to the government's) everything will settle back into place and things will start moving again.

Sorry if I gave the wrong idea. I didn't mean to use words that would indicate that free market would move things back to the status quo, I simply meant turbulence / standard of living / real wages would settle quickly into a system which would be better for everybody.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/12/2009 9:03:19 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Abolish minimum wage and yes, you'll be able to have more people employed, but I'm fairly sure the standard of living will go down - if people believe that somehow, employers will start paying more than the minimum wage if it was abolished
Fallacy, the relevant factor in the standard of living is whether employers will pay more than they WERE BEFORE. In case of the currently unemployed, that means their standard of living goes up if they get paid more than zero :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
wjmelements
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9/12/2009 9:13:34 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
People like visuals here. Here's a homemade graph.
http://tinypic.com...
DD is the demand curve.
SS is the supply curve, which isn't very elastic in the labour market.
NB is where the market would allocate wages, etc.
MW is where the minimum wage allocates wages, etc.
AC is the resulting unemployment.

The minimum wage does not "increase" or "raise" wages without causing significant unemployment.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/12/2009 10:19:17 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 10:12:28 AM, JBlake wrote:
Why does demand supposedly go down with a minimum wage?

Are you more likely, less likely, or equally likely, to buy a product if it's price goes up?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rezzealaux
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9/12/2009 11:32:53 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 10:19:17 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/12/2009 10:12:28 AM, JBlake wrote:
Why does demand supposedly go down with a minimum wage?

Are you more likely, less likely, or equally likely, to buy a product if it's price goes up?

lol I remember talking to a friend once about minimum wage, after I first read the chapter in Economics in One Lesson. He said that if wages rise, then prices rise, so we always get back to the status quo. I then asked him, so what's the point of making minimum wage laws if all they do is get everybody back to the status quo (which is not true btw but I was entertaining him)? He said "because everybody has better living standards in that period of time", between the raising of the minimum wage and the market returning everything to status quo, and that we would never go back to the status quo and living standards would continue to rise if we simply kept raising the minimum wage faster than the market could normalize it.

I suppressed major lolz.

Someone doesn't know why chasing the high is bad...
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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9/12/2009 12:45:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 10:12:28 AM, JBlake wrote:
Why does demand supposedly go down with a minimum wage?

It's price is increased and the demand curve is elastic; therefore, demand decreases as price increases. Economics 101, liberal.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
JBlake
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9/12/2009 1:25:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 12:45:41 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 9/12/2009 10:12:28 AM, JBlake wrote:
Why does demand supposedly go down with a minimum wage?

It's price is increased and the demand curve is elastic; therefore, demand decreases as price increases. Economics 101, liberal.

Only if the increase in price is drastic enough to cause demand to decrease. It is not always true that demand decreases with every increase in price.

Besides, when the people have more money in their pocket...

You see, prices generally increase with or without a minimum wage. If you put more money in the pockets of the poor, you make it so that they are able to afford the increased cost.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/12/2009 1:26:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Forgot to actually c/p the link in my quote post.

http://www.lewrockwell.com...
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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9/12/2009 1:36:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 1:25:35 PM, JBlake wrote:
At 9/12/2009 12:45:41 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 9/12/2009 10:12:28 AM, JBlake wrote:
Why does demand supposedly go down with a minimum wage?

It's price is increased and the demand curve is elastic; therefore, demand decreases as price increases. Economics 101, liberal.

Only if the increase in price is drastic enough to cause demand to decrease. Which is why the slope is gradual. The higher price increases, the further down the demand curve we go.
It is not always true that demand decreases with every increase in price.
But as a whole, it does.
Besides, when the people have more money in their pocket...
The argument that the minimum wage results in inflation sufficient to reduce the harm to the employer also applies to the benefit recieved by the employee.
You see, prices generally increase with or without a minimum wage.
As do wages: proportionally, in fact, to prices.
If you put more money in the pockets of the poor, you make it so that they are able to afford the increased cost.
Unemployed people have less money, not more, and wages increase with or without a minimum wage.

In fact, the minimum wage is why inflation decreases unemployment. The minimum wage relative to the true market value of labour decreases, and therefore so does unemployment.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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9/12/2009 1:38:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Whoopsie, fix'd.
At 9/12/2009 1:36:56 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 9/12/2009 1:25:35 PM, JBlake wrote:
At 9/12/2009 12:45:41 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 9/12/2009 10:12:28 AM, JBlake wrote:
Why does demand supposedly go down with a minimum wage?

It's price is increased and the demand curve is elastic; therefore, demand decreases as price increases. Economics 101, liberal.

Only if the increase in price is drastic enough to cause demand to decrease.
Which is why the slope is gradual. The higher price increases, the further down the demand curve we go.
It is not always true that demand decreases with every increase in price.
But as a whole, it does.
Besides, when the people have more money in their pocket...
The argument that the minimum wage results in inflation sufficient to reduce the harm to the employer also applies to the benefit recieved by the employee.
You see, prices generally increase with or without a minimum wage.
As do wages: proportionally, in fact, to prices.
If you put more money in the pockets of the poor, you make it so that they are able to afford the increased cost.
Unemployed people have less money, not more, and wages increase with or without a minimum wage.

In fact, the minimum wage is why inflation decreases unemployment. The minimum wage relative to the true market value of labour decreases, and therefore so does unemployment.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/12/2009 1:40:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 1:25:35 PM, JBlake wrote:
At 9/12/2009 12:45:41 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 9/12/2009 10:12:28 AM, JBlake wrote:
Why does demand supposedly go down with a minimum wage?

It's price is increased and the demand curve is elastic; therefore, demand decreases as price increases. Economics 101, liberal.

Only if the increase in price is drastic enough to cause demand to decrease. It is not always true that demand decreases with every increase in price.
No, demand decreases with every increase in price, you just don't see it because it's not drastic enough.

Besides, when the people have more money in their pocket...
1) The people do not exist.
2) Money =/= Dollars.
3) If the people (every single person) has more money (dollars) in their pockets, then it's the same as everybody not having more money. This is assuming that everyone's wages rises the same X amount of money (dollars).
4) Evidently, it works more like a rate system - everyone's money (dollars) increases at, oh, let's say 150% a year. Millionare earns 1.5M. Minimum wage guy earns $15. This is, unless I'm mistaken, not the purpose of the minimum wage. But whatever, the minimum wage is like a drug. Every time it will fail and every time the government ("the people") will choose to continue chasing the high.

You see, prices generally increase with or without a minimum wage.
I call bullshìt and I cite the IT industry.

If you put more money in the pockets of the poor, you make it so that they are able to afford the increased cost.
1) Then you go put YOUR money into their pockets. Don't take everyone else's too.
2) Not linked to minimum wage.
3) See R_R's post about living standards.
4) "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish ; and you have fed him for a lifetime" --- Do you buy this? Because I think you don't.
5) "The number of poor people after the second world war was declining one percent a year because of the free market, when the welfare state came in, it stopped declining and stayed steady, which is exactly what you would expect. If you subsidize something you increase its prevalence, and you subsidize poverty, you get more." - Stefan Molyneux
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Rezzealaux
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9/12/2009 1:43:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 1:40:04 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
4) Evidently, it works more like a rate system - everyone's money (dollars) increases at, oh, let's say 50% a year. Millionare earns 1.5M. Minimum wage guy earns $15. This is, unless I'm mistaken, not the purpose of the minimum wage. But whatever, the minimum wage is like a drug. Every time it will fail and every time the government ("the people") will choose to continue chasing the high.

Wrote something wrong: 50, not 150.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/12/2009 1:46:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 8:03:26 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/12/2009 1:12:18 AM, Volkov wrote:
- if people believe that somehow, employers will start paying more than the minimum wage if it was abolished, I have to ask what they're smoking, because really; if a high minimum wage is already costing employers, what makes people think that they'll pay more after its abolished?
Higher in terms of dollars, no. Higher in terms of money, yes.
God damit so many mistakes today. Supposed to be:

Higher in terms of dollars, yes. Higher in terms of money, no.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/12/2009 8:28:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 1:46:29 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/12/2009 8:03:26 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/12/2009 1:12:18 AM, Volkov wrote:
- if people believe that somehow, employers will start paying more than the minimum wage if it was abolished, I have to ask what they're smoking, because really; if a high minimum wage is already costing employers, what makes people think that they'll pay more after its abolished?
Higher in terms of dollars, no. Higher in terms of money, yes.
God damit so many mistakes today. Supposed to be:

Higher in terms of dollars, yes. Higher in terms of money, no.

No wait, I did it right the first time. SCRATCH THAT AGAIN!

We seriously need some edit post abilities.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?