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Applying Nuremberg Laws To U.S. Presidents

jat93
Posts: 1,440
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8/29/2012 12:10:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Noam Chomsky says that if the Nuremberg Laws were really practically applied to U.S. leaders then every U.S. President post WW2 would have been hanged.

Agree or disagree? Have all /most U.S. presidents since Truman engaged in terrorism? If so, was it ever morally justifiable (on the grounds of defense against a threat, preserving American lives, preventing even more deaths, etc)? In short are post WW2 U.S. presidents all terrorist war criminals as Chomsky asserts?
jat93
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8/29/2012 12:17:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I refer to the Nuremberg Laws used to try and hang Nazi leaders for war crimes, not the antisemitic Nuremberg Laws passed in Germany in 1935.

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

(b) War crimes:

Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

(c) Crimes against humanity:

Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

- Nuremberg Principles, 1950
NixonianVolkswagen
Posts: 481
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8/29/2012 3:38:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just to be clear, (when speaking) he always specifies the Nuremberg Principles rather than the actual laws. Although, you seem to have implicitly covered this. :)
"There is an almost universal tendency, perhaps an inborn tendency, to suspect the good faith of a man who holds opinions that differ from our own opinions."

- Karl "Spartacus" Popper
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/29/2012 5:55:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The general idea is that Guantamano Bay (cannot spell it; not American) is a gross violation of section b. He also argues that section c applies due to wars having an intolerable, extremely high, inexcusable amount of racism and discrimination in general from its soldiers
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Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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8/29/2012 10:08:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I completely agree. The US is, as you said elsewhere, had been one of the largest funders of state sponsored terrorism in the world. We've trained militaries to torture their citizens in Brazil, El Salvador, Honduras, Bolivia, Iran, just to name a few. And in Indonesia, Guatemala, Iraq, and Chile, we helped the governments commit genocide (totaling in over 1 million deaths) against their political opponents. Not to mention the genocide that our own military committed in the Philippines in 1898 (1.4 million deaths). Even today we are bombing indiscriminately in the middle east.

I think it's fair to say that every president from Teddy Roosevelt onward (and Andrew Jackson) would have been convicted at the Nuremberg Trials. (The Nuremberg Laws were the laws that discriminated against Jews that were enacted in 1935)
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

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Frederick53
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8/29/2012 10:11:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 10:08:25 AM, Frederick53 wrote:
I completely agree. The US is, as you said elsewhere, had been one of the largest funders of state sponsored terrorism in the world. We've trained militaries to torture their citizens in Brazil, El Salvador, Honduras, Bolivia, Iran, just to name a few. And in Indonesia, Guatemala, Iraq, and Chile, we helped the governments commit genocide (totaling in over 1 million deaths) against their political opponents. Not to mention the genocide that our own military committed in the Philippines in 1898 (1.4 million deaths). Even today we are bombing indiscriminately in the middle east.

I think it's fair to say that every president from William McKinley onward (and Andrew Jackson) would have been convicted at the Nuremberg Trials. (The Nuremberg Laws were the laws that discriminated against Jews that were enacted in 1935)
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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8/29/2012 10:18:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ignoring genocide against the Native Americans, much? Ignoring slavery? Not a single president would have been considered innocent.
Frederick53
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8/29/2012 10:33:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 10:18:58 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Ignoring genocide against the Native Americans, much? Ignoring slavery? Not a single president would have been considered innocent.

True...
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/29/2012 11:30:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 12:17:56 AM, jat93 wrote:
I refer to the Nuremberg Laws used to try and hang Nazi leaders for war crimes, not the antisemitic Nuremberg Laws passed in Germany in 1935.

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

(b) War crimes:

Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

(c) Crimes against humanity:

Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

- Nuremberg Principles, 1950

I'm no fan of Bush, but the only one that comes close to applying to the Bush administration is the racial profiling rule.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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8/29/2012 11:32:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 11:30:48 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/29/2012 12:17:56 AM, jat93 wrote:
I refer to the Nuremberg Laws used to try and hang Nazi leaders for war crimes, not the antisemitic Nuremberg Laws passed in Germany in 1935.

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

(b) War crimes:

Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

(c) Crimes against humanity:

Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

- Nuremberg Principles, 1950

I'm no fan of Bush, but the only one that comes close to applying to the Bush administration is the racial profiling rule.

The other administrations I would have to do more research into. The Bush admin is the only one I know off the top of my head, regarding these issues.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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8/29/2012 11:42:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 12:17:56 AM, jat93 wrote:
I refer to the Nuremberg Laws used to try and hang Nazi leaders for war crimes, not the antisemitic Nuremberg Laws passed in Germany in 1935.

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

Well, we've done that.

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

That's kind of vague, because "common conspiracy" seems to imply international relations, but the criterion of guilt is whether other countries give you the green light.

(b) War crimes:

Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory;

Done that.

murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

Done that.

(c) Crimes against humanity:

Murder,

Yep.

extermination,

I don't think we've reached this stage, yet, though we've probably killed millions upon millions if you add up all the US-caused casualties over the years.

enslavement,

Well, we had slavery.

deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

Yep.
Cody_Franklin
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8/29/2012 11:44:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 11:42:51 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/29/2012 12:17:56 AM, jat93 wrote:
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

That's kind of vague, because "common conspiracy" seems to imply international relations, but the criterion of guilt is whether other countries give you the green light.

Actually, it could be intra-administration conspiring, which we've done before.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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8/29/2012 12:54:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 11:30:48 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/29/2012 12:17:56 AM, jat93 wrote:
I refer to the Nuremberg Laws used to try and hang Nazi leaders for war crimes, not the antisemitic Nuremberg Laws passed in Germany in 1935.

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

(b) War crimes:

Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

(c) Crimes against humanity:

Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

- Nuremberg Principles, 1950

I'm no fan of Bush, but the only one that comes close to applying to the Bush administration is the racial profiling rule.

You don't think those pictures out of GTMO fall under "ill treatment of prisoners of war"?
If you're gonna call it a "war" on terrorism, you gotta treat them as prisoners of war.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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8/29/2012 12:56:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Throw FDR in there, didn't the firebombing of Dresden happen before he died?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/29/2012 1:05:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 12:54:23 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/29/2012 11:30:48 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/29/2012 12:17:56 AM, jat93 wrote:
I refer to the Nuremberg Laws used to try and hang Nazi leaders for war crimes, not the antisemitic Nuremberg Laws passed in Germany in 1935.

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

(b) War crimes:

Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

(c) Crimes against humanity:

Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

- Nuremberg Principles, 1950

I'm no fan of Bush, but the only one that comes close to applying to the Bush administration is the racial profiling rule.

You don't think those pictures out of GTMO fall under "ill treatment of prisoners of war"?
If you're gonna call it a "war" on terrorism, you gotta treat them as prisoners of war.

relatively speaking, no I don't.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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8/30/2012 11:31:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 1:05:16 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/29/2012 12:54:23 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/29/2012 11:30:48 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/29/2012 12:17:56 AM, jat93 wrote:
I refer to the Nuremberg Laws used to try and hang Nazi leaders for war crimes, not the antisemitic Nuremberg Laws passed in Germany in 1935.

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

(b) War crimes:

Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

(c) Crimes against humanity:

Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

- Nuremberg Principles, 1950

I'm no fan of Bush, but the only one that comes close to applying to the Bush administration is the racial profiling rule.

You don't think those pictures out of GTMO fall under "ill treatment of prisoners of war"?
If you're gonna call it a "war" on terrorism, you gotta treat them as prisoners of war.

relatively speaking, no I don't.

It's a good think they don't call it "relative to DanT's idea of ill treatment of prisoners of war" then isn't it?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler