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Israel Is Not A Democracy

jat93
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8/30/2012 12:58:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Today we have three kinds of people living under Israeli rule. We have Jewish Israelis, who have full democracy and have full civil rights. We have the Israeli Arabs, who have Israeli citizenship but are severely discriminated against. And we have the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, who live without any civil rights, and without any human rights. Is that a democracy?

How can you say it is a democracy when, in 62 years, there was not one single Arab village established? I don't have to tell you how many Jewish towns and villages were established. Not one Arab village. How can you say it's a democracy when research has shown repeatedly that Jews and Arabs get different punishments for the same crime? How can you say it's a democracy when a Palestinian student can hardly rent an apartment in Tel Aviv, because when they hear his accent or his name almost nobody will rent to him? How can you say Israel is a democracy when Jerusalem invests 577 shekels a year in a pupil in [Palestinian] East Jerusalem and 2372 shekels a year in a pupil from [Jewish] West Jerusalem. Four times less, only because of the child's ethnicity! Every part of our society is racist."

- Acclaimed Israeli journalist Gideon Levy

Israel is only the robust democracy its supporters think it is if you think the Palestinians are sub-human. But this is flawed in the same way Thomas Jefferson was flawed in seeing no contradiction between his support of liberty and opposition to tyranny and his owning of hundreds of slaves.
InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 1:01:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well sadly many Pro-Israel people I have talked to do think the Palestinians are sub-human. I'm not saying all Jews are like this but I have been noticing a trend of Jews viewing themselves as superior since they're "God's chosen people".
ScottyDouglas
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8/30/2012 1:07:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 1:01:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Well sadly many Pro-Israel people I have talked to do think the Palestinians are sub-human. I'm not saying all Jews are like this but I have been noticing a trend of Jews viewing themselves as superior since they're "God's chosen people".

We all in some way in our geneology are Israeli. Point and fact, David and Solomon had thousands of wives and mistresses, from all over the world. They contributed to almost all genelogies. Though the Zionist Jews do act high and mighty towards everybody. Regular Jews I know oppose thier own state and say is was wrong to just take land from other people to give it to them.
TheAsylum
InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 1:10:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 1:07:12 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

Though the Zionist Jews do act high and mighty towards everybody. Regular Jews I know oppose thier own state and say is was wrong to just take land from other people to give it to them.

From my personal experiences it seems evangelical Christians are more passionately zionist than most Jews. I heard it's because of some ends time prophecy from the Bible.
jat93
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8/30/2012 1:14:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 1:07:12 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/30/2012 1:01:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Well sadly many Pro-Israel people I have talked to do think the Palestinians are sub-human. I'm not saying all Jews are like this but I have been noticing a trend of Jews viewing themselves as superior since they're "God's chosen people".

Though the Zionist Jews do act high and mighty towards everybody. Regular Jews I know oppose thier own state and say is was wrong to just take land from other people to give it to them.

I agree with this totally. I grew up thinking all Jews loved Israel and supported Zionism which necessitates support of the displacement of Palestinians... But that's just because for over a decade I attended a strongly zionist Yeshiva which regularly indoctrinated us with Zionist philosophy about how Israel historically and religiously belongs to the Jews and the Palestinians are basically non-people, etc.

The vast majority of American Jews are pretty liberal, or at least vote Democrat, unlike the community in which I was raised. You're right that the average Jew will speak out against stuff like the Israeli massacre in Gaza in late 2008/early 2009.
TheWaywardSon
Posts: 58
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8/30/2012 2:28:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's an incredibly messy situation to say the least. I'm Jewish myself and i can't really say if I agree with Israel or Palestine. You can sympathize for both sides. The Jews, being that after hundreds of years of such intense discrimination across the world wanting a home, and the Palestinians being angry for being driven out of theirs.
InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 2:31:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 2:28:57 PM, TheWaywardSon wrote:
It's an incredibly messy situation to say the least. I'm Jewish myself and i can't really say if I agree with Israel or Palestine. You can sympathize for both sides. The Jews, being that after hundreds of years of such intense discrimination across the world wanting a home, and the Palestinians being angry for being driven out of theirs.

That's pretty much how I feel tbh. I feel that both sides suffer while also feeling both sides are to blame for the conflict. Really it goes back to the old blood feuds of rival tribes.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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8/30/2012 2:32:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Be careful about criticizing Israel. Someone might call you an anti-Semite. I was actually recently accused of such a thing because I don't support the State of Israel.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
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lewis20
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8/30/2012 2:49:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 2:32:44 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Be careful about criticizing Israel. Someone might call you an anti-Semite. I was actually recently accused of such a thing because I don't support the State of Israel.

Ya it's pretty ridiculous, can't even question things without being labeled an anti-Semite.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 2:55:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 2:49:24 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/30/2012 2:32:44 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Be careful about criticizing Israel. Someone might call you an anti-Semite. I was actually recently accused of such a thing because I don't support the State of Israel.

Ya it's pretty ridiculous, can't even question things without being labeled an anti-Semite.

It goes both ways. I have been anti-semite for not blindly supporting Israel while also being called a zionist or islamophobe for not blindly supporting Palestine.
InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 2:56:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 2:55:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/30/2012 2:49:24 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 8/30/2012 2:32:44 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Be careful about criticizing Israel. Someone might call you an anti-Semite. I was actually recently accused of such a thing because I don't support the State of Israel.

Ya it's pretty ridiculous, can't even question things without being labeled an anti-Semite.

It goes both ways. I have been anti-semite for not blindly supporting Israel while also being called a zionist or islamophobe for not blindly supporting Palestine.

*I have been called
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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8/30/2012 4:33:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 2:32:44 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Be careful about criticizing Israel. Someone might call you an anti-Semite. I was actually recently accused of such a thing because I don't support the State of Israel.

It would be tough to seriously assert that I'm an anti-Semite - I'm Jewish, was orthodox and zionist for most of my life, and 3 of my grandparents survived the Holocaust. I think for anti-Zionist Jews like Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein the term used to slander them is "self-hating Jew," despite the fact that Finkelstein so deeply cares about exposing the slow genocide against the Palestinians because of the lessons which his parents, who survived the worst of the Holocaust, imparted to him.
slo1
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8/30/2012 7:58:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Israel treats Palestinians like dirt. As I understand it has gotten worse in the last 8 years too. Unfortunately the entire conflict is deeply rooted in history and religion. The former people maybe willing to give up, but religion is not going to go away. Ironically, people put much more significance on places, things, and objects than the prophets ever would.

There are many a reasonable Israeli's and Palestinians, however, it is the radicals that continue to disrupt any semblance of extending the proverbial olive branch.

As free thinking citizens of the world, we should take any Palestinian who attacks Israeli citizens and and Israeli who thinks it is their right to continue to clear West Bank lands so they can live there and publicly humiliate them by voiding our bladders upon them. Just saying.......
OberHerr
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8/30/2012 8:08:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
One big reason I lack sympathy for Palestine is their response. Killing civilians, and attacking innocents is not the answer.
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InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 9:11:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 8:08:41 PM, OberHerr wrote:
One big reason I lack sympathy for Palestine is their response. Killing civilians, and attacking innocents is not the answer.

Wouldn't you react similarly if you were kicked out of your home and then treated as sub-human? I'm not saying everything they do is right but of course they're going to act.
slo1
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8/30/2012 10:05:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 8:08:41 PM, OberHerr wrote:
One big reason I lack sympathy for Palestine is their response. Killing civilians, and attacking innocents is not the answer.

You are right, it is not the answer. On the flip side continuing to displace Palestinians in the West Bank and hindering Palestinians from making a living via uber aggressive policy and pure simple discrimination is not the answer either. It is controlled extermination & elimination simply because they have the power.
OberHerr
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8/30/2012 10:06:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 9:11:51 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/30/2012 8:08:41 PM, OberHerr wrote:
One big reason I lack sympathy for Palestine is their response. Killing civilians, and attacking innocents is not the answer.

Wouldn't you react similarly if you were kicked out of your home and then treated as sub-human? I'm not saying everything they do is right but of course they're going to act.

Not by murdering innocents, and then expecting the world to sympathize with you.

I would fight probably, but not the way they do.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 10:09:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 10:06:39 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 8/30/2012 9:11:51 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/30/2012 8:08:41 PM, OberHerr wrote:
One big reason I lack sympathy for Palestine is their response. Killing civilians, and attacking innocents is not the answer.

Wouldn't you react similarly if you were kicked out of your home and then treated as sub-human? I'm not saying everything they do is right but of course they're going to act.

Not by murdering innocents, and then expecting the world to sympathize with you.

I would fight probably, but not the way they do.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
OberHerr
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8/30/2012 10:11:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 10:09:45 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/30/2012 10:06:39 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 8/30/2012 9:11:51 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/30/2012 8:08:41 PM, OberHerr wrote:
One big reason I lack sympathy for Palestine is their response. Killing civilians, and attacking innocents is not the answer.

Wouldn't you react similarly if you were kicked out of your home and then treated as sub-human? I'm not saying everything they do is right but of course they're going to act.

Not by murdering innocents, and then expecting the world to sympathize with you.

I would fight probably, but not the way they do.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

I don't care what their fighting for, so much as how their doing it.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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8/30/2012 10:31:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So is this going to be another anti-Semite circlejerk, or is someone willing to contribute some common sense to these forums?

Oh, and Jat: http://en.wikipedia.org...
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 10:34:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 10:11:11 PM, OberHerr wrote:

I don't care what their fighting for, so much as how their doing it.

True, but you can't say their cause isn't justified just because they're going about it the wrong way.
InsertNameHere
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8/30/2012 10:43:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 10:31:22 PM, MouthWash wrote:
So is this going to be another anti-Semite circlejerk, or is someone willing to contribute some common sense to these forums?

Oh, and Jat: http://en.wikipedia.org...

Nobody has said anything anti-semitic in this entire thread unless you're one of those people who consider any criticism of Israel to be anti-semitic.
OberHerr
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8/30/2012 10:44:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 10:34:22 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/30/2012 10:11:11 PM, OberHerr wrote:

I don't care what their fighting for, so much as how their doing it.

True, but you can't say their cause isn't justified just because they're going about it the wrong way.

Eh, issue is a bit too clouded for me to take full sides. One reason why I often judge the side by how they go about getting their way.

I think, from what I know, both sides are right in sme ways, and are wrong in some ways. Equally? I dunno.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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16kadams
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8/30/2012 10:48:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 10:31:22 PM, MouthWash wrote:
So is this going to be another anti-Semite circlejerk, or is someone willing to contribute some common sense to these forums?

Oh, and Jat: http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives."

Yep
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Lordknukle
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8/30/2012 11:11:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Virtually none of what you said has anything to do with democracy. The author is just making up a lot of feel good sentiments that he wrongly inherently attributes to democracy and calls Israel undemocratic. Fail journalist is fail.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OberHerr
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8/30/2012 11:14:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 11:11:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Virtually none of what you said has anything to do with democracy. The author is just making up a lot of feel good sentiments that he wrongly inherently attributes to democracy and calls Israel undemocratic. Fail journalist is fail.

Pfft, I barely ever bother responding to Jats actual posts, only the inevitable arguments that come out of every thread about a hotter topic issue.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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jat93
Posts: 1,440
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8/30/2012 11:33:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 8:08:41 PM, OberHerr wrote:
One big reason I lack sympathy for Palestine is their response. Killing civilians, and attacking innocents is not the answer.

First of all, the amount of Israeli civilians and innocents attacked and killed by Palestinians is dwarfed by the number of dead innocent Palestinians. Recall that Israel is the occupying power - it has a state, a very powerful military, and permission to get away with using it constantly for serious war crimes per any international standard because the U.S. backs them. These illegal offenses (opposed by every major country aside from U.S. and Israel) include occupation of stolen Palestinian lands, sieges and blockades on Gaza, destroying hospitals and agriculture, regular civilian casualties, keeping Palestinians in a ghetto which they need Israeli permission to emerge from, leading to incredibly high unemployment rates...

Israel is the occupier, Palestinians are the occupied. Given what they are subject to, the total lack of human rights afforded them by Israel, treatment as if they were literally sub-animal, what other choice do they have than to retaliate? Israel hardly gives them a choice - Hamas and the PA have long been down with a two state solution and renouncing all violence in exchange for Israeli withdrawal from illegally occupied territories. They have promised to totally stop the violence. Peace is on the table. However, Israel says that as preconditions for real negotiations Hamas must do 3 things -

1) recognize Israel's right to exist (Israel certainly doesn't recognize the right of a Palestinian country to exist)
2) renounce violence (Israel certainly doesn't renounce violence; terrorizing the Palestinian societies is essential to Israeli policy)
3) abide by international treaties (Israel refuses to listen to international agencies they belong to which call them out for their merciless, vicious treatment of the Palestinians)

Israel displaced 800,000 Palestinians in its first year, it illegally annexed conquered territories in the 1967 war, it has continued occupying these countries in opposition of all credible international law and the opinion of almost every country aside from America. Despite this, all major Palestinian groups have accepted a peaceful 2 state solution. Israel consistently refuses this offer, opting instead to continue occupying and expanding settlements in the territories, backed by the U.S. diplomatically and financially. What options do Hamas and the PA and any Palestinian have to try and gain some basic human rights?

Most importantly, would you lack sympathy for the Partisans (JEwish resistance during Holocaust) and Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto who had an uprising against those who had forced them in the ghetto, because they used violence and in the Partisans case made no differentiation between civilian and military targets? You'd probably observe that their violence, though maybe not totally justified, is certainly more justified than that of their Nazi aggressors who arguably made the Jewish violence inevitable by violating their human rights. Well, that's how I see violent Palestinians.
jat93
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8/30/2012 11:47:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 11:11:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Virtually none of what you said has anything to do with democracy. The author is just making up a lot of feel good sentiments that he wrongly inherently attributes to democracy and calls Israel undemocratic. Fail journalist is fail.

Here's how I define democracy - government by the people, a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

I think it is inherently UNdemocratic for any country to say or prove through actions that there are some citizens who have all the rights and enjoy democracy, some who are significantly discriminated against under the law, and then some who are totally denied basic human rights.

You might say that it's only the "eligible" members of the state. That is BS. A precondition of true democracy is granting an equal voice to those living under control of whichever government, and not deny their personhood because of their race or gender. This is why I would also say that American slavery was fundamentally undemocratic - these are human beings not being represented at all in the democracy which is supposed to be the voice of all the people who live under the laws of the ruling government.

And more Israelis than not support a two-state solution, so the fact that the government continues this brutal occupation despite the will of a majority of its citizens is also totally undemocratic.
Lordknukle
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8/30/2012 11:50:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 11:47:22 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 8/30/2012 11:11:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Virtually none of what you said has anything to do with democracy. The author is just making up a lot of feel good sentiments that he wrongly inherently attributes to democracy and calls Israel undemocratic. Fail journalist is fail.

Here's how I define democracy - government by the people, a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

That's an appropriate definition. It doesn't have anything to do with your point, though.

I think it is inherently UNdemocratic for any country to say or prove through actions that there are some citizens who have all the rights and enjoy democracy, some who are significantly discriminated against under the law, and then some who are totally denied basic human rights.

You might say that it's only the "eligible" members of the state. That is BS. A precondition of true democracy is granting an equal voice to those living under control of whichever government, and not deny their personhood because of their race or gender. This is why I would also say that American slavery was fundamentally undemocratic - these are human beings not being represented at all in the democracy which is supposed to be the voice of all the people who live under the laws of the ruling government.

And more Israelis than not support a two-state solution, so the fact that the government continues this brutal occupation despite the will of a majority of its citizens is also totally undemocratic.

As for all of this nonsense, I request non-partisan proof of this mistreatment towards Palestinians.

Of course, it's not as if Israel regularly gives aid to Gaza (http://www.cija.ca...). The part about "basic rights" is nonsense.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
TheWaywardSon
Posts: 58
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8/30/2012 11:54:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 11:33:12 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 8/30/2012 8:08:41 PM, OberHerr wrote:
One big reason I lack sympathy for Palestine is their response. Killing civilians, and attacking innocents is not the answer.

First of all, the amount of Israeli civilians and innocents attacked and killed by Palestinians is dwarfed by the number of dead innocent Palestinians. Recall that Israel is the occupying power - it has a state, a very powerful military, and permission to get away with using it constantly for serious war crimes per any international standard because the U.S. backs them. These illegal offenses (opposed by every major country aside from U.S. and Israel) include occupation of stolen Palestinian lands, sieges and blockades on Gaza, destroying hospitals and agriculture, regular civilian casualties, keeping Palestinians in a ghetto which they need Israeli permission to emerge from, leading to incredibly high unemployment rates...

Israel is the occupier, Palestinians are the occupied. Given what they are subject to, the total lack of human rights afforded them by Israel, treatment as if they were literally sub-animal, what other choice do they have than to retaliate? Israel hardly gives them a choice - Hamas and the PA have long been down with a two state solution and renouncing all violence in exchange for Israeli withdrawal from illegally occupied territories. They have promised to totally stop the violence. Peace is on the table. However, Israel says that as preconditions for real negotiations Hamas must do 3 things -

1) recognize Israel's right to exist (Israel certainly doesn't recognize the right of a Palestinian country to exist)
2) renounce violence (Israel certainly doesn't renounce violence; terrorizing the Palestinian societies is essential to Israeli policy)
3) abide by international treaties (Israel refuses to listen to international agencies they belong to which call them out for their merciless, vicious treatment of the Palestinians)

Israel displaced 800,000 Palestinians in its first year, it illegally annexed conquered territories in the 1967 war, it has continued occupying these countries in opposition of all credible international law and the opinion of almost every country aside from America. Despite this, all major Palestinian groups have accepted a peaceful 2 state solution. Israel consistently refuses this offer, opting instead to continue occupying and expanding settlements in the territories, backed by the U.S. diplomatically and financially. What options do Hamas and the PA and any Palestinian have to try and gain some basic human rights?

Most importantly, would you lack sympathy for the Partisans (JEwish resistance during Holocaust) and Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto who had an uprising against those who had forced them in the ghetto, because they used violence and in the Partisans case made no differentiation between civilian and military targets? You'd probably observe that their violence, though maybe not totally justified, is certainly more justified than that of their Nazi aggressors who arguably made the Jewish violence inevitable by violating their human rights. Well, that's how I see violent Palestinians.

You seem like you know a lot about it. If you have a website that's non-partisan (What Lordknuckle said) I'd love to read about it.