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The Welfare argument

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Before you judge it as such, this is not another partisan rant, it is a real point.

A popular argument that the GOP makes against the president is that he has weakened the work requirement for welfare. That's patently false. "His administration in July issued a letter to state governments saying that the Department of Health and Human Services would consider requests from states to experiment with new ways to fulfill the work requirements. The letter said that in order to receive waivers to carry out the experiments, states would have to show that their plans would move more welfare recipients into jobs than existing policies." (http://www.latimes.com...)

I'm sure that Romney and Ryan know very well that it's false, so what exactly is the purpose in pushing it? Well this is actually an exercise in political calculus. The drawback they receive from factcheckers does not counteract the benefit they gain from pushing falsities. They are targeting the white suburban middle class vote and eliciting some angry sentiment from it with shameful racial undertones....The idea of the Black poor welfare queen mooching off the government,...the idea that Obama is pandering to his race. This is a message that would resonate with Republicans and with people that had suspicions that such was true.

The reality is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are non-Black:
White 38.8%
Black 37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian 2.8
Other 3.4
(http://www.huppi.com... )

And the reality is also that Obama has not gutted welfare. Call the president what you will, but I challenge you to point out a LEGITIMATE.....LEGITIMATE lie he has ever charged against Mitt Romney. Insults are one thing, lies are another. I've never heard of a national party literally making things up about the their opposition before....I thought the limit was in twisting facts.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/3/2012 1:32:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
The reality is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are non-Black:
White 38.8%
Black 37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian 2.8
Other 3.4
(http://www.huppi.com... )

I don't care about the actual subject, but this table is misleading. Since white people are the largest ethnicity, you could obviously predict that they would reap the highest percent share of welfare payments. What's more useful, since it's more representative of intra-group trends, is to look at per-capita welfare or something. Like, X/100,000 is on welfare.

What you're doing is like saying "reported crime has increased steadily over the last 100 years" without controlling for massive population growth.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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9/3/2012 2:08:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
Before you judge it as such, this is not another partisan rant, it is a real point.

A popular argument that the GOP makes against the president is that he has weakened the work requirement for welfare. That's patently false. "His administration in July issued a letter to state governments saying that the Department of Health and Human Services would consider requests from states to experiment with new ways to fulfill the work requirements. The letter said that in order to receive waivers to carry out the experiments, states would have to show that their plans would move more welfare recipients into jobs than existing policies." (http://www.latimes.com...)

I'm sure that Romney and Ryan know very well that it's false, so what exactly is the purpose in pushing it? Well this is actually an exercise in political calculus. The drawback they receive from factcheckers does not counteract the benefit they gain from pushing falsities. They are targeting the white suburban middle class vote and eliciting some angry sentiment from it with shameful racial undertones....The idea of the Black poor welfare queen mooching off the government,...the idea that Obama is pandering to his race. This is a message that would resonate with Republicans and with people that had suspicions that such was true.

So Ryan and Romney are eliciting angry sentiment from a non-existent idea?
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imabench
Posts: 21,229
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9/3/2012 2:32:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 1:32:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
The reality is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are non-Black:
White 38.8%
Black 37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian 2.8
Other 3.4
(http://www.huppi.com... )

I don't care about the actual subject, but this table is misleading. Since white people are the largest ethnicity, you could obviously predict that they would reap the highest percent share of welfare payments. What's more useful, since it's more representative of intra-group trends, is to look at per-capita welfare or something. Like, X/100,000 is on welfare.

What you're doing is like saying "reported crime has increased steadily over the last 100 years" without controlling for massive population growth.

^ cody has a solid point on this one
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/3/2012 2:39:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 2:32:44 PM, imabench wrote:
At 9/3/2012 1:32:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
The reality is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are non-Black:
White 38.8%
Black 37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian 2.8
Other 3.4
(http://www.huppi.com... )

I don't care about the actual subject, but this table is misleading. Since white people are the largest ethnicity, you could obviously predict that they would reap the highest percent share of welfare payments. What's more useful, since it's more representative of intra-group trends, is to look at per-capita welfare or something. Like, X/100,000 is on welfare.

What you're doing is like saying "reported crime has increased steadily over the last 100 years" without controlling for massive population growth.

^ cody has a solid point on this one

Yeah, I'll have to concede that one...but still maintain the point that Obama has not gutted welfare and making those claims is really a cheap shot at ethnic stereotypes, and an unprecedented kind of dishonesty in national politics.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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9/3/2012 2:45:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It probably is just BS. However I stumbled upon this on RCP: http://dailycaller.com...

But I dont really understand his argument, probably because I know little about the welfare process.

Nice av btw
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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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9/3/2012 3:00:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, claiming things are patently false is misleading in itself. General facts in politics work:

1) Someone makes a claim like a think tank
2) The think tank's fact is picked up on by a Junior Minister
3) The fact is passed up through a couple people to someone who can talk to major politicians, each slightly stretching
4) The major politician then says the fact in such a way to give maximum impact.

As a result, getting a fact wrong with your figures doesn't make a massive impact. It's happened to so many at so many times that it is unusual for it not to.
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/3/2012 3:12:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 2:39:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
Yeah, I'll have to concede that one...but still maintain the point that Obama has not gutted welfare and making those claims is really a cheap shot at ethnic stereotypes, and an unprecedented kind of dishonesty in national politics.

Fair enough. But, I don't think it's "unprecedented", either. People lie and cheat all the time. Nixon lied about Watergate, Reagan, North et al. tried to sweep over the Contras, we've gone to war numerous times based on fabrications (e.g., Iraq, Vietnam, Spanish-American). Hitler ostensibly lied about who burned down the Reichstag. There was the Dreyfus Affair in France. I mean, the list of big lies goes pretty far and deep, but the point is that this kind of dishonesty is only situationally novel (if that, since the sacralization of entitlements has enabled them to be politically weaponized for years), not systematically unprecedented.

I think that's particularly important for people like me, because, it's not just that the state used to be kind of crappy, but is only now rearing its head at us. If this stuff isn't novel, then we're being disingenuous by whitewashing the past to provide effective contrast for a spotlighted bit of dishonesty. The state, as an institution, is always already that bad. It's just a question of how accurately you want to keep score.
Chaos88
Posts: 247
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9/3/2012 3:39:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:

The reality is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are non-Black:
White 38.8%
Black 37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian 2.8
Other 3.4
(http://www.huppi.com... )


One aspect of this issue (and why people tend to accuse blacks of abusing the system) is the percent of blacks on welfare; it is disproportionate. Yes, there are more whites, in number and as a percent. But the issue is a black person is about 6x more likely than a white person to be on welfare. Thus, any welfare issue can be seen as pandering to a race. Also, this is why the stereotype is a black person (this, and racism).

The question is, why are so many blacks on welfare? And to address this problem, it is a policy designed to help one race over another.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Chaos88
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9/3/2012 3:56:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:

And the reality is also that Obama has not gutted welfare. Call the president what you will, but I challenge you to point out a LEGITIMATE.....LEGITIMATE lie he has ever charged against Mitt Romney. Insults are one thing, lies are another. I've never heard of a national party literally making things up about the their opposition before....I thought the limit was in twisting facts.

Lies are a harsh word. Politicians spin things all the time, to the point that some may call it a lie. For example, the president has called out Mitt for not releasing his tax returns, which is not required. He further accuses Mitt of hiding something, and pundits have called Mitt a felon (because the tax returns will show illegal activity, they speculate). Does the president have any way of knowing if Mitt is hiding something?

It might not be a lie, but it is a dirty trick, one that both sides pull too often.

BTW, I think Mitt isn't releasing his returns because he is uber-rich, and the left will simply attack him for that, saying things like "he makes more in one year than your family will make in their lifetimes, so he cannot speak for you because he has no idea of the plights of the common man".
lewis20
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9/3/2012 4:47:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
Before you judge it as such, this is not another partisan rant, it is a real point.

This is exactly a partisan rant, like everything else you post.
Just because you put a "This isn't partisan" disclaimer doesn't make it so... with all due respect.
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000ike
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9/3/2012 4:58:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 4:47:52 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
Before you judge it as such, this is not another partisan rant, it is a real point.

This is exactly a partisan rant, like everything else you post.
Just because you put a "This isn't partisan" disclaimer doesn't make it so... with all due respect.


Democrat + criticism of GOP =/= Partisan rant.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lewis20
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9/3/2012 5:12:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 4:58:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
Democrat + criticism of GOP =/= Partisan rant.

Not in general, but when you post it nearly always is.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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9/3/2012 10:17:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 1:32:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
The reality is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are non-Black:
White 38.8%
Black 37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian 2.8
Other 3.4
(http://www.huppi.com... )

I don't care about the actual subject, but this table is misleading. Since white people are the largest ethnicity, you could obviously predict that they would reap the highest percent share of welfare payments. What's more useful, since it's more representative of intra-group trends, is to look at per-capita welfare or something. Like, X/100,000 is on welfare.

What you're doing is like saying "reported crime has increased steadily over the last 100 years" without controlling for massive population growth.

^^^^
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DanT
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9/3/2012 10:36:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 12:53:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
The reality is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are non-Black:
White 38.8%
Black 37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian 2.8
Other 3.4
(http://www.huppi.com... )
(adj) vast (unusually great in size or amount or degree or especially extent or scope)
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Greyparrot
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9/4/2012 2:02:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 3:56:39 PM, Chaos88 wrote:
BTW, I think Mitt isn't releasing his returns because he is uber-rich, and the left will simply attack him for that, saying things like "he makes more in one year than your family will make in their lifetimes, so he cannot speak for you because he has no idea of the plights of the common man".

Mitt learned to play the document card (aka birth certificate) from Obama. I hope he gets as much play as Obama did.