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Obama's abolishing corporate taxes?

Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/13/2009 3:24:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"No business wants to invest in a place where the government skims 20 percent off the top"

--Barack Obama

Unless, of course, he means they prefer the US rate of 35% off the top plus state and local stuff :).
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/13/2009 3:39:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Yeah, and no individual wants to live in a place where the government skims 33% of the top.

Which is why hundreds of thousands went back to their residences in Somalia from neighboring countries after the collapse of that government.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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9/13/2009 3:47:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Who doesn't want to give 35% of their moneys to Obama?
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
tribefan011
Posts: 106
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9/13/2009 9:35:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 3:39:01 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Yeah, and no individual wants to live in a place where the government skims 33% of the top.

Which is why hundreds of thousands went back to their residences in Somalia from neighboring countries after the collapse of that government.

What's the unemployment rate in Somalia? What's the standard of living? How's the education system? What's the crime rate? I could go on, but I think you get the point.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/13/2009 9:37:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 9:35:03 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
At 9/13/2009 3:39:01 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Yeah, and no individual wants to live in a place where the government skims 33% of the top.

Which is why hundreds of thousands went back to their residences in Somalia from neighboring countries after the collapse of that government.

What's the unemployment rate in Somalia? What's the standard of living? How's the education system? What's the crime rate? I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Unemployment: Lower than it was under the somalian government.
Standard of living: Higher than it was under the somalian government.
Education system: Better than it was under the somalian government.
Crime rate: Lower than it was under the somalian government.

I could go on, but I think you get the point.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
tribefan011
Posts: 106
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9/13/2009 9:42:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 9:37:21 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/13/2009 9:35:03 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
At 9/13/2009 3:39:01 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Yeah, and no individual wants to live in a place where the government skims 33% of the top.

Which is why hundreds of thousands went back to their residences in Somalia from neighboring countries after the collapse of that government.

What's the unemployment rate in Somalia? What's the standard of living? How's the education system? What's the crime rate? I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Unemployment: Lower than it was under the somalian government.
Standard of living: Higher than it was under the somalian government.
Education system: Better than it was under the somalian government.
Crime rate: Lower than it was under the somalian government.

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Link?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/13/2009 9:45:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 9:42:11 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
Link?

I think you might want to go to the video's actual page, because he posts things that are too small to see if you just watch the video here on DDO. There's a second video on Somalia which you can find on the right sidebar under Series.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
tribefan011
Posts: 106
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9/13/2009 9:48:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 9:45:20 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/13/2009 9:42:11 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
Link?



I think you might want to go to the video's actual page, because he posts things that are too small to see if you just watch the video here on DDO. There's a second video on Somalia which you can find on the right sidebar under Series.

Is there a point in the video where he actually backs the four claims you just made, or do I have to listen to this garbage for 28 minutes?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/13/2009 9:51:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 9:48:49 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
At 9/13/2009 9:45:20 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/13/2009 9:42:11 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
Link?



I think you might want to go to the video's actual page, because he posts things that are too small to see if you just watch the video here on DDO. There's a second video on Somalia which you can find on the right sidebar under Series.

Is there a point in the video where he actually backs the four claims you just made, or do I have to listen to this garbage for 28 minutes?

If you think I gave you garbage, why do you ask me whether or not it's garbage? Clearly you're against what I posted already, why would anything I say from now on be at all credible to you?

Yes, he does. If not in this video, the next video. But the stuff he says in the beginning does lead up to the stats and other things he says, in both videos.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
tribefan011
Posts: 106
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9/13/2009 10:00:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 9:51:17 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/13/2009 9:48:49 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
At 9/13/2009 9:45:20 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/13/2009 9:42:11 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
Link?



I think you might want to go to the video's actual page, because he posts things that are too small to see if you just watch the video here on DDO. There's a second video on Somalia which you can find on the right sidebar under Series.

Is there a point in the video where he actually backs the four claims you just made, or do I have to listen to this garbage for 28 minutes?

If you think I gave you garbage, why do you ask me whether or not it's garbage? Clearly you're against what I posted already, why would anything I say from now on be at all credible to you?

Yes, he does. If not in this video, the next video. But the stuff he says in the beginning does lead up to the stats and other things he says, in both videos.

I'll wait for any statistics you actually have to back you up. For now, just sites like these and the pure hilarity of someone saying that crime rates in Somalia are lower than they were under their government leave me skeptical.
http://www.unesco.org...
Refer to Table 1.
http://www.unodc.org...
Figure 38. Apparently, Somalia's crime rate was higher before 1991?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/13/2009 10:30:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 10:00:22 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
I'll wait for any statistics you actually have to back you up.
That's funny, seeing as I did give you some statistics, it was simply in a different form. Hell, if you even watched three minutes in you'd see that he puts up the link to a PDF in the video. But okay, I'll play along with your inconsistencies for now...

For now, just sites like these and the pure hilarity of someone saying that crime rates in Somalia are lower than they were under their government leave me skeptical.

http://www.unesco.org...
Refer to Table 1.
You are correct; I remembered wrong. However,

"[...] Given that foreign aid was completely financing education in Somalia pre-1991, it is not surprising that there has been some fall in school enrollment and literacy. This is less a statement about the Somali government's ability to generate welfare enhancing outcomes for its citizens than it is a reflection of foreign aid poured into Somali education by the international development community before government collapsed." (14)

(peterleeson.com/better_off_stateless.pdf)
Same source used in the video, which also cites sources if you scroll to the end.

http://www.unodc.org...
Figure 38. Apparently, Somalia's crime rate was higher before 1991?
1) This does not comment on anything but the crime rate in Somalia in relation to other countries in 2002, hence this cannot be used to say that crime rate is higher in 2002 than it was in 1991.
2) Keep in mind that at this point in time, and it's been this way for a while, there is a government attempting to take over the anarchist part of Somalia, and the UN is aiding that government. There are going to be many Somalian murders.
3) There's no units for the Y axis. Assuming it's per hundred thousand like the graph on the previous page though, it doesn't take into account the population of the country. 5 homicides per 100k in an area with 10 people is a lot more than 5 homicides per 100k in the United States of 300M.
4) C/Ped from page 10 and 11 of the same source,

Most depictions of Somalia grossly exaggerate the extent of violence. In reality, fewer people die from armed conflicts in some parts of Somalia than do in neighboring countries that have governments. In these areas security is better today than it was under government. (UNDP 2001). About the same number of annual deaths in Somalia are due to childbirth as are attributable to war - roughly four percent of the total (UNDP/World Bank 2003: 16) And these deaths are combatants, not civilians. "Atrocities against civilians are now almost unheard of" (Menkhaus 2004: 30) This is still too high, but far from cataclysmic. In fact, it's not far from the percentage of deaths due to homicide in middle-income countries such as Mexico, which in 2001 was 3.6 (WHO 2006)
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
tribefan011
Posts: 106
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9/13/2009 10:49:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 10:30:08 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:

You are correct; I remembered wrong. However,

"[...] Given that foreign aid was completely financing education in Somalia pre-1991, it is not surprising that there has been some fall in school enrollment and literacy. This is less a statement about the Somali government's ability to generate welfare enhancing outcomes for its citizens than it is a reflection of foreign aid poured into Somali education by the international development community before government collapsed." (14)

I'm not interesting in arguing for the previous Somali government, but rather in attacking anarchism and the free market, which are often illogically used to equate correlation with causation in the development of Somalia over the past 20 years.

http://www.unodc.org...
Figure 38. Apparently, Somalia's crime rate was higher before 1991?
1) This does not comment on anything but the crime rate in Somalia in relation to other countries in 2002, hence this cannot be used to say that crime rate is higher in 2002 than it was in 1991.
2) Keep in mind that at this point in time, and it's been this way for a while, there is a government attempting to take over the anarchist part of Somalia, and the UN is aiding that government. There are going to be many Somalian murders.
3) There's no units for the Y axis. Assuming it's per hundred thousand like the graph on the previous page though, it doesn't take into account the population of the country. 5 homicides per 100k in an area with 10 people is a lot more than 5 homicides per 100k in the United States of 300M.
4) C/Ped from page 10 and 11 of the same source,

1) I never made that claim. I simply doubt that the murder rate was higher than 7th in the world before 1991.
3) If you look on the page above the graph, it's referring to murders per 100,000.

Most depictions of Somalia grossly exaggerate the extent of violence. In reality, fewer people die from armed conflicts in some parts of Somalia than do in neighboring countries that have governments. In these areas security is better today than it was under government. (UNDP 2001). About the same number of annual deaths in Somalia are due to childbirth as are attributable to war - roughly four percent of the total (UNDP/World Bank 2003: 16) And these deaths are combatants, not civilians. "Atrocities against civilians are now almost unheard of" (Menkhaus 2004: 30) This is still too high, but far from cataclysmic. In fact, it's not far from the percentage of deaths due to homicide in middle-income countries such as Mexico, which in 2001 was 3.6 (WHO 2006)

Yes, many people also left Somalia after the collapse of the Somali government as well. I really don't see much to suggest that civilians are not being killed. Just this past week in Mogadishu, 32 civilians were killed. Also, a lot of violence results from insurgents who oppose the Somali government.
http://www.reuters.com...
http://www.reuters.com...

http://hdr.undp.org...
Pages 69-70 certainly do not help your claim on unemployment.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/13/2009 11:16:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 10:49:19 PM, tribefan011 wrote:
At 9/13/2009 10:30:08 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:

You are correct; I remembered wrong. However,

"[...] Given that foreign aid was completely financing education in Somalia pre-1991, it is not surprising that there has been some fall in school enrollment and literacy. This is less a statement about the Somali government's ability to generate welfare enhancing outcomes for its citizens than it is a reflection of foreign aid poured into Somali education by the international development community before government collapsed." (14)

I'm not interesting in arguing for the previous Somali government, but rather in attacking anarchism and the free market, which are often illogically used to equate correlation with causation in the development of Somalia over the past 20 years.

You can never prove causation in reality. All causations are theories.

The previous Somalian government is important, as that is what we are comparing the current Somalian anarchy to, along with Somalia's neighboring countries. Unless you're suggesting we should compare it to something else...?

http://www.unodc.org...
Figure 38. Apparently, Somalia's crime rate was higher before 1991?
1) This does not comment on anything but the crime rate in Somalia in relation to other countries in 2002, hence this cannot be used to say that crime rate is higher in 2002 than it was in 1991.
2) Keep in mind that at this point in time, and it's been this way for a while, there is a government attempting to take over the anarchist part of Somalia, and the UN is aiding that government. There are going to be many Somalian murders.
3) There's no units for the Y axis. Assuming it's per hundred thousand like the graph on the previous page though, it doesn't take into account the population of the country. 5 homicides per 100k in an area with 10 people is a lot more than 5 homicides per 100k in the United States of 300M.
4) C/Ped from page 10 and 11 of the same source,

1) I never made that claim. I simply doubt that the murder rate was higher than 7th in the world before 1991.
Alright, that is fine then.
3) If you look on the page above the graph, it's referring to murders per 100,000.
I did not know they carried over, as the graph title is different, as is the countries on the X axis. But that is fine, my argument still holds.

Most depictions of Somalia grossly exaggerate the extent of violence. In reality, fewer people die from armed conflicts in some parts of Somalia than do in neighboring countries that have governments. In these areas security is better today than it was under government. (UNDP 2001). About the same number of annual deaths in Somalia are due to childbirth as are attributable to war - roughly four percent of the total (UNDP/World Bank 2003: 16) And these deaths are combatants, not civilians. "Atrocities against civilians are now almost unheard of" (Menkhaus 2004: 30) This is still too high, but far from cataclysmic. In fact, it's not far from the percentage of deaths due to homicide in middle-income countries such as Mexico, which in 2001 was 3.6 (WHO 2006)

Yes, many people also left Somalia after the collapse of the Somali government as well.
I would like to see statistics showing that more than 400 thousand left Somalia, because that's the amount that walked back in from Ethiopia.

I really don't see much to suggest that civilians are not being killed.
There is a difference between civilian murders and deaths due to war. Civilian murders reflect upon the society, as it is within the society; war reflects upon either the society or the opposing party, depending on the situation. I am assuming you are using death rates as an argument against anarchy, because they are more dangerous. In that case, you would be using the civilian murders rate. The rate provided in your stat does not explicitly differentiate between these two, so the graph is inconclusive.

Just this past week in Mogadishu, 32 civilians were killed. Also, a lot of violence results from insurgents who oppose the Somali government.
http://www.reuters.com...
http://www.reuters.com...
Yes, a lot of violence results from insurgents who oppose the Somali government that is attempting to take over their society. They are not "peacekeepers", they are invaders. And the fault of this act of self defense is the anarchy's?

I disagree.

http://hdr.undp.org...
Pages 69-70 certainly do not help your claim on unemployment.

Nope, they don't. I am sorry again, I remembered incorrectly. I'm sure, though, that overall living standards have risen since the fall of the Somalian government. See page 13 of the link I posted previously - of 18 key indicators, Somalia has only declined in two of them (adult literacy and combined school enrollment), both of which have dropped because they were previously funded almost entirely by foreign aid. What this shows us, though, is that the education provided by the former Somalian government was simply artificially inflated, a make-work scheme: if the Somalian market demanded more schools, it would get more. The fact that it is declining (from your statistic) shows us that they don't demand more education. And education, which is measured by schooling, doesn't really measure the average intelligence or the performance of a member in society. A high school graduate from Switzerland will, on average, earn more than a person with a Bachelor's in the USA. I don't have that statistic on me, though.

But please, go to page 13 and see the chart there.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/13/2009 11:16:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I apologize, I meant to type page 12.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?