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Healthcare and Freedom

JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Chaos88
Posts: 247
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9/12/2012 1:33:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Are you sure?
They do do that on group plans. Everyone pays a smoker's rate, because smokers are covered. If smokers weren't covered, then the group rate would go down. Employers generally use group rates.

On an individual (non-employer) level, if I smoke or am overweight, and you are not, I pay more, as I am a higher risk. You know, the way insurance ought to be...

The reform necessary is individual tax reform, not business. Let there be a direct tax credit/deduction for my insurance, and not let it be a business deduction. This way, wages should go up, and I use that money to buy the policy I want.
Agent_Orange
Posts: 2,252
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9/12/2012 1:37:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

Yes. He is playing an original playstation in 2012, when the PS3 has been out for like 5 years. I mean I get if you want to feel retro but if that's the case spring for the far superior N64.
#BlackLivesMatter
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/12/2012 1:40:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 1:33:09 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Are you sure?
They do do that on group plans. Everyone pays a smoker's rate, because smokers are covered. If smokers weren't covered, then the group rate would go down. Employers generally use group rates.

On an individual (non-employer) level, if I smoke or am overweight, and you are not, I pay more, as I am a higher risk. You know, the way insurance ought to be...

The reform necessary is individual tax reform, not business. Let there be a direct tax credit/deduction for my insurance, and not let it be a business deduction. This way, wages should go up, and I use that money to buy the policy I want.

There is no truly free insurance, it's all varying degrees.

If I could have taken my employer's contribution with me, along with my own money, and found a comparable plan that gave me a discount for not smoking, not drinking, exercising, not being overweight, and it allowed me to opt out of having coverage for a thousand different things that will never apply to me, and only cover comprehensive things that I choose.... that would be what I want.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/12/2012 1:41:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 1:37:07 AM, Agent_Orange wrote:
Yes. He is playing an original playstation in 2012, when the PS3 has been out for like 5 years. I mean I get if you want to feel retro but if that's the case spring for the far superior N64.

A story: I used to work for a bank.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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9/12/2012 2:29:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes. He is playing an original playstation in 2012, when the PS3 has been out for like 5 years. I mean I get if you want to feel retro but if that's the case spring for the far superior N64.

Segaaaaaaa
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

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Chaos88
Posts: 247
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9/12/2012 2:42:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 1:40:18 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 1:33:09 AM, Chaos88 wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:

Are you sure?
They do do that on group plans. Everyone pays a smoker's rate, because smokers are covered. If smokers weren't covered, then the group rate would go down. Employers generally use group rates.

On an individual (non-employer) level, if I smoke or am overweight, and you are not, I pay more, as I am a higher risk. You know, the way insurance ought to be...

The reform necessary is individual tax reform, not business. Let there be a direct tax credit/deduction for my insurance, and not let it be a business deduction. This way, wages should go up, and I use that money to buy the policy I want.

There is no truly free insurance, it's all varying degrees.

If I could have taken my employer's contribution with me, along with my own money, and found a comparable plan that gave me a discount for not smoking, not drinking, exercising, not being overweight, and it allowed me to opt out of having coverage for a thousand different things that will never apply to me, and only cover comprehensive things that I choose.... that would be what I want.

This single act would change the insurance game for the better.

Insurance is all about the actuary tables, so the lowest risks (whatever that is) pays the least, everyone else, pays more.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/12/2012 11:41:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market
This is heavily disincentivized by tax rules dating from FDR's wage controls.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/12/2012 11:43:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
By the way, smokers are fairly cheap to care for, as are obese people. They die fairly quick, so not a lot of time to rack up costs.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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9/12/2012 5:24:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Not sure what your point is. Do you expect insurance companies to monitor what you eat or your lifestyle habits? And do you take into account genetics, which has nothing to do with personal responsibility?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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9/12/2012 5:42:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Gym membership costs the same despite how much someone bench presses, or how often they work out.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
imabench
Posts: 21,216
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9/12/2012 5:45:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 5:42:00 PM, DanT wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Gym membership costs the same despite how much someone bench presses, or how often they work out.

SOMEONE SAID BENCH!!!!!!
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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9/12/2012 6:38:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 11:43:26 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
By the way, smokers are fairly cheap to care for, as are obese people. They die fairly quick, so not a lot of time to rack up costs.

But they also don't have a lot of time to put into the system either if they die during peak wage earning lifespan.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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9/12/2012 6:38:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 11:43:26 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
By the way, smokers are fairly cheap to care for, as are obese people. They die fairly quick, so not a lot of time to rack up costs.

But they also don't have a lot of time to put into the system either if they die during peak wage earning lifespan.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/14/2012 5:52:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

Yes. Health Care is administered by Professionals, Insurance is sold by non professionals. Play Station and McD's are just like Insurance Companies,they sell a product to make a profit, but have nothing to do with individual choice. The problem is, you have posited a correlation where non exist.

Want lower Costs associated with health Care.....make insurance ilegal. Want government run insurance....just do it. Want government run health Care...go for it....Doctors who work like IRS agents. See UK...Doctors are penalized if their percentage of smokers is to high, Government determines who gets what treatment based on lifestyle choices. Social Darwinism is, was and shall be Bovine Scatology.

Everyone have a super-sized meal of your choice. One more thing....People are fat because they eat to much, not because they use play station. Kids are Fat because mommy and daddy let them eat to much.
slo1
Posts: 4,330
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9/14/2012 7:48:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 5:52:54 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

Yes. Health Care is administered by Professionals, Insurance is sold by non professionals. Play Station and McD's are just like Insurance Companies,they sell a product to make a profit, but have nothing to do with individual choice. The problem is, you have posited a correlation where non exist.

Want lower Costs associated with health Care.....make insurance ilegal. Want government run insurance....just do it. Want government run health Care...go for it....Doctors who work like IRS agents. See UK...Doctors are penalized if their percentage of smokers is to high, Government determines who gets what treatment based on lifestyle choices. Social Darwinism is, was and shall be Bovine Scatology.

Everyone have a super-sized meal of your choice. One more thing....People are fat because they eat to much, not because they use play station. Kids are Fat because mommy and daddy let them eat to much.

This is just over the top and unfair slam against the original post. He highlights the absurdity of the Employer provided heath care system and group policies and the fact that they don't price premiums based upon individual risk. Not to mention your employer is picking your insurance coverage for you. The group policy system for heath care is anti competitive.

It is time for free thinkers to denounce that system and get the burden of health care off our businesses backs. Not only do they pay some of the highest corporate taxes in the world, but they also pay bucket loads for their employee's health care.

Health care has to be brought back down to the individual level, so individuals have a stake in their premiums.

You want open free markets first get rid of employee provided heath care first.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/14/2012 11:22:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
How would the health insurance companies even reinforce this? If you could get cheaper health insurance by stating that you don't smoke, eat healthy, and exercise wouldn't most people just lie? Are the health insurance companies going to track you to make sure your not lying?

Also, what about people who are just born unhealthy? I'm sure you've met the person who has a million health conditions. Should they be forced to pay more for health insurance?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/14/2012 2:21:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 7:48:12 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/14/2012 5:52:54 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

Yes. Health Care is administered by Professionals, Insurance is sold by non professionals. Play Station and McD's are just like Insurance Companies,they sell a product to make a profit, but have nothing to do with individual choice. The problem is, you have posited a correlation where non exist.

Want lower Costs associated with health Care.....make insurance ilegal. Want government run insurance....just do it. Want government run health Care...go for it....Doctors who work like IRS agents. See UK...Doctors are penalized if their percentage of smokers is to high, Government determines who gets what treatment based on lifestyle choices. Social Darwinism is, was and shall be Bovine Scatology.

Everyone have a super-sized meal of your choice. One more thing....People are fat because they eat to much, not because they use play station. Kids are Fat because mommy and daddy let them eat to much.

This is just over the top and unfair slam against the original post. He highlights the absurdity of the Employer provided heath care system and group policies and the fact that they don't price premiums based upon individual risk. Not to mention your employer is picking your insurance coverage for you. The group policy system for heath care is anti competitive.

It is time for free thinkers to denounce that system and get the burden of health care off our businesses backs. Not only do they pay some of the highest corporate taxes in the world, but they also pay bucket loads for their employee's health care.

Health care has to be brought back down to the individual level, so individuals have a stake in their premiums.

You want open free markets first get rid of employee provided heath care first.

LOL.....McDs doesn't price its food based on your size either. It is not unfair, and yes it is a slam on the thought process you use. The idea is NOT to pay claims, it is to collect premiums. wake up.
Justin_Thiel
Posts: 87
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9/14/2012 2:33:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Do you feel that there are more people like you with this issue? If so, then you have found a consumer base that is demanding a product which is not readily available in the current free market. Create a health insurance company that does take into account personal health/lifestyle choices.

That's how the market is SUPPOSED to work.. Can anyone tell me why it doesn't?

I can. It's because we live in a fascist system where the government uses its force and the corporations use their monopoly of the market in an epic alliance to enslave the rest of us. They've got all the cards in their favor now... All the resources, information, technology, etc. to keep them in power.

All we can do in our defense is to create a new socio-economic system that is not dependant on their's. That's when we win.

Unless they decide to get pissed off and start a war against us. Then hopefully we have enough freedom fighters on our side to gain control over some of the weapons and raw resources we will need to gain the tactical advantage.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/14/2012 2:42:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 2:33:56 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Do you feel that there are more people like you with this issue? If so, then you have found a consumer base that is demanding a product which is not readily available in the current free market. Create a health insurance company that does take into account personal health/lifestyle choices.

That's how the market is SUPPOSED to work.. Can anyone tell me why it doesn't?

I can. It's because we live in a fascist system where the government uses its force and the corporations use their monopoly of the market in an epic alliance to enslave the rest of us. They've got all the cards in their favor now... All the resources, information, technology, etc. to keep them in power.

All we can do in our defense is to create a new socio-economic system that is not dependant on their's. That's when we win.

Unless they decide to get pissed off and start a war against us. Then hopefully we have enough freedom fighters on our side to gain control over some of the weapons and raw resources we will need to gain the tactical advantage.

Well if the health insurance really wants to work in a free market, it can discriminate against black people because they are more likely to have health problems then white people. They can also discriminate against women because they also have more health complications. They can discriminate people who were born with many health conditions (such as those born premasture). They can discriminate based on wealth, since poor people are more likely to have more health complications.
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Justin_Thiel
Posts: 87
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9/14/2012 3:04:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 2:42:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/14/2012 2:33:56 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Do you feel that there are more people like you with this issue? If so, then you have found a consumer base that is demanding a product which is not readily available in the current free market. Create a health insurance company that does take into account personal health/lifestyle choices.

That's how the market is SUPPOSED to work.. Can anyone tell me why it doesn't?

I can. It's because we live in a fascist system where the government uses its force and the corporations use their monopoly of the market in an epic alliance to enslave the rest of us. They've got all the cards in their favor now... All the resources, information, technology, etc. to keep them in power.

All we can do in our defense is to create a new socio-economic system that is not dependant on their's. That's when we win.

Unless they decide to get pissed off and start a war against us. Then hopefully we have enough freedom fighters on our side to gain control over some of the weapons and raw resources we will need to gain the tactical advantage.

Well if the health insurance really wants to work in a free market, it can discriminate against black people because they are more likely to have health problems then white people. They can also discriminate against women because they also have more health complications. They can discriminate people who were born with many health conditions (such as those born premasture). They can discriminate based on wealth, since poor people are more likely to have more health complications.

Yep exactly, and discrimination always creates an opposite demand in the market. If a company discriminates against black people then their will be a huge consumer base of black people willing to purchase insurance from a company that will provide the service. The same goes for any discrimination in the market. It creates always creates a consumer base of people who are being discriminated against.

Also, discrimination creates a moral motivation factor in humans. Even some nonblack people would stop being customers because of the discrimination. Charity organizations also tend to spring up to fill any demand in a market where the people who are being discriminated against aren't getting the services they need efficiently enough from the market.

In a utopia the whole market would be driven and funded by charity/volunteers. Too bad Utopias don't exist.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/14/2012 3:08:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 3:04:25 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/14/2012 2:42:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/14/2012 2:33:56 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Do you feel that there are more people like you with this issue? If so, then you have found a consumer base that is demanding a product which is not readily available in the current free market. Create a health insurance company that does take into account personal health/lifestyle choices.

That's how the market is SUPPOSED to work.. Can anyone tell me why it doesn't?

I can. It's because we live in a fascist system where the government uses its force and the corporations use their monopoly of the market in an epic alliance to enslave the rest of us. They've got all the cards in their favor now... All the resources, information, technology, etc. to keep them in power.

All we can do in our defense is to create a new socio-economic system that is not dependant on their's. That's when we win.

Unless they decide to get pissed off and start a war against us. Then hopefully we have enough freedom fighters on our side to gain control over some of the weapons and raw resources we will need to gain the tactical advantage.

Well if the health insurance really wants to work in a free market, it can discriminate against black people because they are more likely to have health problems then white people. They can also discriminate against women because they also have more health complications. They can discriminate people who were born with many health conditions (such as those born premasture). They can discriminate based on wealth, since poor people are more likely to have more health complications.

Yep exactly, and discrimination always creates an opposite demand in the market. If a company discriminates against black people then their will be a huge consumer base of black people willing to purchase insurance from a company that will provide the service. The same goes for any discrimination in the market. It creates always creates a consumer base of people who are being discriminated against.

Also, discrimination creates a moral motivation factor in humans. Even some nonblack people would stop being customers because of the discrimination. Charity organizations also tend to spring up to fill any demand in a market where the people who are being discriminated against aren't getting the services they need efficiently enough from the market.

In a utopia the whole market would be driven and funded by charity/volunteers. Too bad Utopias don't exist.

Except the discrimination arises because its profitable to discriminate. The markets aren't going to fix that.
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Justin_Thiel
Posts: 87
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9/14/2012 3:44:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 3:08:03 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/14/2012 3:04:25 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/14/2012 2:42:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/14/2012 2:33:56 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Do you feel that there are more people like you with this issue? If so, then you have found a consumer base that is demanding a product which is not readily available in the current free market. Create a health insurance company that does take into account personal health/lifestyle choices.

That's how the market is SUPPOSED to work.. Can anyone tell me why it doesn't?

I can. It's because we live in a fascist system where the government uses its force and the corporations use their monopoly of the market in an epic alliance to enslave the rest of us. They've got all the cards in their favor now... All the resources, information, technology, etc. to keep them in power.

All we can do in our defense is to create a new socio-economic system that is not dependant on their's. That's when we win.

Unless they decide to get pissed off and start a war against us. Then hopefully we have enough freedom fighters on our side to gain control over some of the weapons and raw resources we will need to gain the tactical advantage.

Well if the health insurance really wants to work in a free market, it can discriminate against black people because they are more likely to have health problems then white people. They can also discriminate against women because they also have more health complications. They can discriminate people who were born with many health conditions (such as those born premasture). They can discriminate based on wealth, since poor people are more likely to have more health complications.

Yep exactly, and discrimination always creates an opposite demand in the market. If a company discriminates against black people then their will be a huge consumer base of black people willing to purchase insurance from a company that will provide the service. The same goes for any discrimination in the market. It creates always creates a consumer base of people who are being discriminated against.

Also, discrimination creates a moral motivation factor in humans. Even some nonblack people would stop being customers because of the discrimination. Charity organizations also tend to spring up to fill any demand in a market where the people who are being discriminated against aren't getting the services they need efficiently enough from the market.

In a utopia the whole market would be driven and funded by charity/volunteers. Too bad Utopias don't exist.

Except the discrimination arises because its profitable to discriminate. The markets aren't going to fix that.

I just explained how the market profits from discrimination on both sides of the fence and fills the service demands of any people being discriminated against.. Rendering the impact of the original discrimination obsolete. A truly free market would always fix itself.

My explanation makes your claim obsolete on all accounts. If you think my explanation is false then please go ahead and show in just as much detail how it is so.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/14/2012 4:20:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 3:44:52 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/14/2012 3:08:03 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/14/2012 3:04:25 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/14/2012 2:42:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/14/2012 2:33:56 PM, Justin_Thiel wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:35:51 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:34:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/12/2012 12:26:08 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
We should all be free to pay for our own healthcare and insurance. We need to reform our system so that we can do so.

A story: I used to work for a bank. I was married, no kids. My co-worker who sat next to me was also married with no kids.

I brought my own food to work. Healthy food.
He bought fast food for lunch.

I walked around in the fresh air during my breaks.
He went outside and smoked.

I went home and exercised, went out with my wife, ate healthy.
He went home, ate more fast food, and played his PlayStation.

We both had the same insurance. We both paid the same premiums. Same co-pays, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums, and lifetime maximum benefits.

Can you tell what is wrong with this picture?

You can choose to not get your company coverage (if that is what you both had) and go get some from the market, if you like.

That doesn't change the fact that insurance doesn't take into account personal responsibility. It spreads the cost of everyone's bad choices around, instead of keeping them where they belong.

Do you feel that there are more people like you with this issue? If so, then you have found a consumer base that is demanding a product which is not readily available in the current free market. Create a health insurance company that does take into account personal health/lifestyle choices.

That's how the market is SUPPOSED to work.. Can anyone tell me why it doesn't?

I can. It's because we live in a fascist system where the government uses its force and the corporations use their monopoly of the market in an epic alliance to enslave the rest of us. They've got all the cards in their favor now... All the resources, information, technology, etc. to keep them in power.

All we can do in our defense is to create a new socio-economic system that is not dependant on their's. That's when we win.

Unless they decide to get pissed off and start a war against us. Then hopefully we have enough freedom fighters on our side to gain control over some of the weapons and raw resources we will need to gain the tactical advantage.

Well if the health insurance really wants to work in a free market, it can discriminate against black people because they are more likely to have health problems then white people. They can also discriminate against women because they also have more health complications. They can discriminate people who were born with many health conditions (such as those born premasture). They can discriminate based on wealth, since poor people are more likely to have more health complications.

Yep exactly, and discrimination always creates an opposite demand in the market. If a company discriminates against black people then their will be a huge consumer base of black people willing to purchase insurance from a company that will provide the service. The same goes for any discrimination in the market. It creates always creates a consumer base of people who are being discriminated against.

Also, discrimination creates a moral motivation factor in humans. Even some nonblack people would stop being customers because of the discrimination. Charity organizations also tend to spring up to fill any demand in a market where the people who are being discriminated against aren't getting the services they need efficiently enough from the market.

In a utopia the whole market would be driven and funded by charity/volunteers. Too bad Utopias don't exist.

Except the discrimination arises because its profitable to discriminate. The markets aren't going to fix that.

I just explained how the market profits from discrimination on both sides of the fence and fills the service demands of any people being discriminated against.. Rendering the impact of the original discrimination obsolete. A truly free market would always fix itself.

My explanation makes your claim obsolete on all accounts. If you think my explanation is false then please go ahead and show in just as much detail how it is so.

a) Black people have more health problems then white people.
b) It would be unprofitable to give black people the same price as white people since it will cost more.
c) discrimination occurs

Businesses can't just "soak up these opportunity costs" because there's no opportunity costs that exists. There's no profit to be made off them.

Health insurance companies will discriminate against people who are unhealthy, whether through means they can or can't control. You already stated that companies would discriminate against people who are unhealthy through methods they can control, so why not through methods they can't control. Its all just a probability game.
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Chaos88
Posts: 247
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9/15/2012 4:19:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 4:20:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:

a) Black people have more health problems then white people.
b) It would be unprofitable to give black people the same price as white people since it will cost more.
c) discrimination occurs

Businesses can't just "soak up these opportunity costs" because there's no opportunity costs that exists. There's no profit to be made off them.

Health insurance companies will discriminate against people who are unhealthy, whether through means they can or can't control. You already stated that companies would discriminate against people who are unhealthy through methods they can control, so why not through methods they can't control. Its all just a probability game.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing; it is good business.

Insurance is about assessing risk, so if one group of people is more risky than another, they pay more. Take race out of it, and replace it with someone who has allergies (I don't, my wife does). Should my wife pay more for insurance, when due to her allergies, she gets sick more often, thus uses the product for what she is insured more often? Of course she should. It isn't fair, but it isn't fair she has allergies, either, it is just business.

Want a better example of "acceptable" discrimination? Take auto insurance:
Should someone with ten speeding tickets pay more than one with zero, all things being equal? Yes.
Should a teen, who are higher risk because they are involved in more accidents, pay more than an adult? Yes.

Life insurance:
Should someone who is 90 pay the same amount for a policy as someone who is 12? No.
If I am diagnosed with a terminal illness, and decide to buy insurance, should my rate be higher than if I didn't have said illness? Of course it should.

But, for some reason, health insurance is wrong to charge someone more likely to have heart disease? Why? Health insurance is not healthcare.

Health insurance PAYS for healthcare, and they need to cover their costs. If they don't charge more for the people who use it (higher rates for higher risks), then they will charge everyone more to cover those risks, meaning healthier people will pay more for insurance they are less likely to use. This may be a fair alternative, but it is not pragmatic for business, as those healthy people may leave the system.
Chaos88
Posts: 247
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9/15/2012 4:24:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let me be clear:
If an insurance company (or any business) were to charge a client more solely because of their race, that is a bad thing.

However, if their race is a legitimate factor, it is not a bad thing.
Blacks are more prone to heart disease, but I am sure whites are more prone to other things, like cancer or depression. So, if I am right, I black man would pay more for heart disease insurance, and less for cancer insurance.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/15/2012 9:28:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Meh, doesn't seem like people understand my point.

My point is that things you have control over should be taken into consideration, not things you have no control over.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/15/2012 9:35:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/15/2012 4:19:41 PM, Chaos88 wrote:
At 9/14/2012 4:20:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:

a) Black people have more health problems then white people.
b) It would be unprofitable to give black people the same price as white people since it will cost more.
c) discrimination occurs

Businesses can't just "soak up these opportunity costs" because there's no opportunity costs that exists. There's no profit to be made off them.

Health insurance companies will discriminate against people who are unhealthy, whether through means they can or can't control. You already stated that companies would discriminate against people who are unhealthy through methods they can control, so why not through methods they can't control. Its all just a probability game.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing; it is good business.

Insurance is about assessing risk, so if one group of people is more risky than another, they pay more. Take race out of it, and replace it with someone who has allergies (I don't, my wife does). Should my wife pay more for insurance, when due to her allergies, she gets sick more often, thus uses the product for what she is insured more often? Of course she should. It isn't fair, but it isn't fair she has allergies, either, it is just business.

Want a better example of "acceptable" discrimination? Take auto insurance:
Should someone with ten speeding tickets pay more than one with zero, all things being equal? Yes.
Should a teen, who are higher risk because they are involved in more accidents, pay more than an adult? Yes.

Life insurance:
Should someone who is 90 pay the same amount for a policy as someone who is 12? No.
If I am diagnosed with a terminal illness, and decide to buy insurance, should my rate be higher than if I didn't have said illness? Of course it should.

But, for some reason, health insurance is wrong to charge someone more likely to have heart disease? Why? Health insurance is not healthcare.

Health insurance PAYS for healthcare, and they need to cover their costs. If they don't charge more for the people who use it (higher rates for higher risks), then they will charge everyone more to cover those risks, meaning healthier people will pay more for insurance they are less likely to use. This may be a fair alternative, but it is not pragmatic for business, as those healthy people may leave the system.

That's my point. I realize that it is good business for discrimination. But good business =/=good for society. Business regulations can produce socially desirable outcomes even if these outcomes will not occur in a free market.
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