Total Posts:10|Showing Posts:1-10
Jump to topic:

Here's a challenge, if you don't like Romney.

JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 1:31:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have a challenge... there are a few rules to the challenge.

1 - For each point made, please explain whether it is an example of good or poor leadership.
2 - If a point is an example of poor leadership, please explain why.
3 - Do not bring up any other subject than the points described here. In other words, stay on topic.

Point A - Education

In 2003, Massachusetts was ranked by the NAEP(NCES) as follows:

4th Grade Math: 6th
4th Grade Science: 6th
4th Grade Reading: 3rd

In 2007, Massachusetts was ranked as follows:

4th Grade Math: 1st
4th Grade Science: 1st
4th Grade Reading: 1st

A similar story is found across subjects and grades, but these are the only three subjects with full data for their grade level available. All of this, even while cutting spending on education from $7.8 million in 2003 to $7.4 million in 2007.

Point B - Budget

In 2003, Massachusetts had a budget deficit of $650 million for the current year. Romney retroactively balanced that budget.

For the 2003-2006 budgets, Romney balanced every budget. For the 2006 budget, Romney had to line-item veto about 250 expenditures, and the legislature overturned all of his vetoes. He then used his executive emergency power to cut that spending anyway, as MA law requires a balanced budget. Romney fought against a legislature that was breaking state law.

In 2003, Massachusetts' 'Rainy-Day Fund' had a balance of $641 million. In 2007, it had a balance of $2.3 billion.

Point C - Unemployment/Job Creation

In early 2003, state unemployment was at 6%. In 2007, unemployment was at 4.6%.

In 2003, Massachussets was ranked 50th in job creation. In 2007, it was 28th.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 2:08:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ignoring the phony growth in both the stock market and housing sectors, and it still looks like Mitt Romney did an above average job. Thanks for posting.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 12:18:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
None of these are examples of leadership so you can't say if it was good or bad.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 12:46:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/6/2012 12:18:42 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
None of these are examples of leadership so you can't say if it was good or bad.

Yes, because vetoing 250 bills was totally done by some abstract entity that wasn't Mitt Romney.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 1:13:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/6/2012 1:31:29 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I have a challenge... there are a few rules to the challenge.

1 - For each point made, please explain whether it is an example of good or poor leadership.
2 - If a point is an example of poor leadership, please explain why.
3 - Do not bring up any other subject than the points described here. In other words, stay on topic.


Point A - Education

In 2003, Massachusetts was ranked by the NAEP(NCES) as follows:

4th Grade Math: 6th
4th Grade Science: 6th
4th Grade Reading: 3rd

In 2007, Massachusetts was ranked as follows:

4th Grade Math: 1st
4th Grade Science: 1st
4th Grade Reading: 1st

A similar story is found across subjects and grades, but these are the only three subjects with full data for their grade level available. All of this, even while cutting spending on education from $7.8 million in 2003 to $7.4 million in 2007.


Point B - Budget

In 2003, Massachusetts had a budget deficit of $650 million for the current year. Romney retroactively balanced that budget.

For the 2003-2006 budgets, Romney balanced every budget. For the 2006 budget, Romney had to line-item veto about 250 expenditures, and the legislature overturned all of his vetoes. He then used his executive emergency power to cut that spending anyway, as MA law requires a balanced budget. Romney fought against a legislature that was breaking state law.

In 2003, Massachusetts' 'Rainy-Day Fund' had a balance of $641 million. In 2007, it had a balance of $2.3 billion.


Point C - Unemployment/Job Creation

In early 2003, state unemployment was at 6%. In 2007, unemployment was at 4.6%.

In 2003, Massachussets was ranked 50th in job creation. In 2007, it was 28th.

While these are all good things, you've backed it all on one simple fallacy:
correlation is not causation.
Unemployment down? Awesome, but to strengthen your argument what bill did he pass to do that? Otherwise what's to say the market just so happened to kick in and Romney was just there?
Education? Was it federal or state? What bills? etc...

And even if you did prove all these things, that just means he was a good governor, might not have been a good leader. (Example: William Lloyn Mckenzie King anyone?)
Thank you for voting!
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 1:35:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I like rule three, keep it simple stupid.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 1:49:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If none of these are the reasons why we don't like him, then I don't see how this thread is relevant if we can't bring up any other subjects.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 2:04:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/6/2012 1:31:29 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I have a challenge... there are a few rules to the challenge.

1 - For each point made, please explain whether it is an example of good or poor leadership.

Splurging facts without explanation of how Romney made them happen makes it difficult to conform to this. It's a false dilemna because none of the things you list are examples of leadership at all - they're just raw facts.

Point A - Education

In 2003, Massachusetts was ranked by the NAEP(NCES) as follows:

4th Grade Math: 6th
4th Grade Science: 6th
4th Grade Reading: 3rd

In 2007, Massachusetts was ranked as follows:

4th Grade Math: 1st
4th Grade Science: 1st
4th Grade Reading: 1st

A similar story is found across subjects and grades, but these are the only three subjects with full data for their grade level available. All of this, even while cutting spending on education from $7.8 million in 2003 to $7.4 million in 2007.

I don't know all the facts but there's a response to this in a NYT article that just came out: "On education, Mr. Romney was correct in stating that Massachusetts students were ranked first in the nation during his tenure. Students in grades four and eight took top honors in reading and mathematics on the 2003 National Assessment of Educational Progress.

However, educators largely credit an overarching reform of state schools 10 years earlier under Governor Weld. The reforms doubled state spending on schools and brought standards and accountability to administrators and students.

"Governor Romney does not get to take the credit for achieving that No. 1 ranking," said Mike Gilbert, field director for the nonprofit Massachusetts Association of School Committees, "but it did happen while he was in office.""

- http://www.nytimes.com...

So in fact previous increases in the education budget were responsible for the improvement in national league tables.

Point B - Budget

In 2003, Massachusetts had a budget deficit of $650 million for the current year. Romney retroactively balanced that budget.

For the 2003-2006 budgets, Romney balanced every budget. For the 2006 budget, Romney had to line-item veto about 250 expenditures, and the legislature overturned all of his vetoes. He then used his executive emergency power to cut that spending anyway, as MA law requires a balanced budget. Romney fought against a legislature that was breaking state law.

In 2003, Massachusetts' 'Rainy-Day Fund' had a balance of $641 million. In 2007, it had a balance of $2.3 billion.

I don't have any disagreements with this. It does show strong leadership.

Point C - Unemployment/Job Creation

In early 2003, state unemployment was at 6%. In 2007, unemployment was at 4.6%.

In 2003, Massachussets was ranked 50th in job creation. In 2007, it was 28th.

Without an explanation this is a free floating fact that may have no bearing on Romney's leadership skills. What did Romney do to help the state's employment rate? What areas of employment increased under Romney?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 2:27:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/6/2012 12:46:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/6/2012 12:18:42 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
None of these are examples of leadership so you can't say if it was good or bad.

Yes, because vetoing 250 bills was totally done by some abstract entity that wasn't Mitt Romney.

Do you know the difference between "leadership" and "leader"? I said, these are not examples of leadership, not that he was not a leader.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/6/2012 3:12:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/6/2012 2:08:17 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Ignoring the phony growth in both the stock market and housing sectors, and it still looks like Mitt Romney did an above average job. Thanks for posting.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan