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"If we had no government, who would do X?!?!"

Wallstreetatheist
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10/8/2012 8:41:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
We anarchists constantly encounter the challenge, "But if we had no government (as we know it), who would do X?" To respond properly to this question, we need to review the full set of actions for which we now look to governments. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon's classic enumeration remains the most helpful:

"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored."

As Proudhon adds, "That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality." I realize that it will not be easy for us to defend the proposition that anarchy can equal government (as we know it) in all these regards, but we must answer the question as honestly and completely as we can, even if we must confess that anarchy will never be able to equal government (as we know it) in many of these regards.
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OberHerr
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10/8/2012 8:43:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thats not the issue I have with anarchy.....ever.
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darkkermit
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10/8/2012 9:04:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
did anybdy seriously believe that nobody would pick the cotton without slavery? rivalrous and private goods such as cotton are pretty easy to provide in a market.
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Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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10/8/2012 9:29:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I thought anarchy was just an idea that "V" in V for vendetta had. I didn't realize that people actually believe in this.
imabench
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10/8/2012 9:30:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If we had no wallstreetathiest, who would make all these useless threads?
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Ore_Ele
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10/8/2012 9:37:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 9:30:37 PM, imabench wrote:
If we had no wallstreetathiest, who would make all these useless threads?

The free market would fill the need.
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lewis20
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10/8/2012 9:43:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 9:30:37 PM, imabench wrote:
If we had no wallstreetathiest, who would make all these useless threads?

If we had no imabench, where would we get all our witty comic relief?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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OberHerr
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10/8/2012 9:44:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 9:43:14 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 10/8/2012 9:30:37 PM, imabench wrote:
If we had no wallstreetathiest, who would make all these useless threads?

If we had no imabench, where would we get all our witty comic relief?

Was that you trying to make a comeback?

Because, if you were....it failed.
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lewis20
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10/8/2012 9:47:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 9:44:15 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/8/2012 9:43:14 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 10/8/2012 9:30:37 PM, imabench wrote:
If we had no wallstreetathiest, who would make all these useless threads?

If we had no imabench, where would we get all our witty comic relief?

Was that you trying to make a comeback?

Because, if you were....it failed.

Eh I hesitated posting it, but I figured I'd be contributing as much as anyone else
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
imabench
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10/8/2012 10:00:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 9:29:40 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
I thought anarchy was just an idea that "V" in V for vendetta had. I didn't realize that people actually believe in this.

WHAT
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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Wallstreetatheist
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10/8/2012 10:03:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 8:43:59 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Thats not the issue I have with anarchy.....ever.

That effectively essentially concedes 95% of the arguments against anarchy. "If we didn't have government, who would build the roads?" "If we didn't have government, who would protect us?" "If we didn't have government, who would provide medical care?"

I'm glad that's not the issue you have with anarchy. It's a really, really stupid argument to make.
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darkkermit
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10/8/2012 10:05:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:03:21 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/8/2012 8:43:59 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Thats not the issue I have with anarchy.....ever.

That effectively essentially concedes 95% of the arguments against anarchy. "If we didn't have government, who would build the roads?" "If we didn't have government, who would protect us?" "If we didn't have government, who would provide medical care?"

I'm glad that's not the issue you have with anarchy. It's a really, really stupid argument to make.

Just because it could be provided without government, doesn't mean its a *superior* mechanism.
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OberHerr
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10/8/2012 10:05:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:05:05 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:03:21 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/8/2012 8:43:59 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Thats not the issue I have with anarchy.....ever.

That effectively essentially concedes 95% of the arguments against anarchy. "If we didn't have government, who would build the roads?" "If we didn't have government, who would protect us?" "If we didn't have government, who would provide medical care?"

I'm glad that's not the issue you have with anarchy. It's a really, really stupid argument to make.

Just because it could be provided without government, doesn't mean its a *superior* mechanism.

And the above is my argument.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Wallstreetatheist
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10/8/2012 10:08:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 9:29:40 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
I thought anarchy was just an idea that "V" in V for vendetta had. I didn't realize that people actually believe in this.

A parody of your own remark: "I thought Islam was just an idea that 'M' in M for Mohammad had. I didn't realize that people actually believe this."

http://i.qkme.me...
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Ore_Ele
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10/8/2012 10:10:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
People should note that when people bring up roads regarding anarchy, they are not saying "roads will never be built" they are only saying that it will be less efficient and more expensive.
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Ore_Ele
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10/8/2012 10:11:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:10:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
People should note that when people bring up roads regarding anarchy, they are not saying "roads will never be built" they are only saying that it will be less efficient and more expensive.

And by "people" I don't mean "all" but a generalization of a large number of people.
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OberHerr
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10/8/2012 10:13:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:10:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
People should note that when people bring up roads regarding anarchy, they are not saying "roads will never be built" they are only saying that it will be less efficient and more expensive.

And the Army. And the Police.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Wallstreetatheist
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10/8/2012 10:28:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:05:05 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:03:21 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/8/2012 8:43:59 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Thats not the issue I have with anarchy.....ever.

That effectively essentially concedes 95% of the arguments against anarchy. "If we didn't have government, who would build the roads?" "If we didn't have government, who would protect us?" "If we didn't have government, who would provide medical care?"

I'm glad that's not the issue you have with anarchy. It's a really, really stupid argument to make.

Just because it could be provided without government, doesn't mean its a *superior* mechanism.

Well, I would posit it is superior to government. I mean, that's not much of a leap; think DMV. But, I would concede that the market doesn't always get the right answer, yet it is superior when thinking of the alternatives.
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Wallstreetatheist
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10/8/2012 10:30:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:11:34 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:10:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
People should note that when people bring up roads regarding anarchy, they are not saying "roads will never be built" they are only saying that it will be less efficient and more expensive.

And by "people" I don't mean "all" but a generalization of a large number of people.

Care to debate that topic? Yes, the free market generates products and services less efficiently and more costly than the alternative of a monopoly on the use of violence xD I needed the laugh today, my dog killed himself.
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Wallstreetatheist
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10/8/2012 10:31:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:13:40 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:10:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
People should note that when people bring up roads regarding anarchy, they are not saying "roads will never be built" they are only saying that it will be less efficient and more expensive.

And the Army. And the Police.

Care to debate the police on anarchy?
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Lordknukle
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10/8/2012 10:56:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There no problem coordinating economic activity; the market will take care of itself, whether through barter or through institutionalizing a commodity(ies) as currency.

The problem is with the pursuit of power, which is anarchy's inherent flaw. People want power over other people. Now I know the typical anarchist answer to that is "Private firms will discourage monopolies on violence," but who's to say that either the firms won't A) Fight with each other to secure ultimate power or B) The first established firm will ultimately have a monopoly on violence and act as a State figure.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ore_Ele
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10/9/2012 12:22:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:56:56 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
There no problem coordinating economic activity; the market will take care of itself, whether through barter or through institutionalizing a commodity(ies) as currency.

The problem is with the pursuit of power, which is anarchy's inherent flaw. People want power over other people. Now I know the typical anarchist answer to that is "Private firms will discourage monopolies on violence," but who's to say that either the firms won't A) Fight with each other to secure ultimate power or B) The first established firm will ultimately have a monopoly on violence and act as a State figure.

Through evolution, humans came about before government did. Therefore, people lived in a government-free time. People voluntarily created government and choose it over a government-free system. Of course, if we reset, it would likely happen again.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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10/9/2012 12:22:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 10:30:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:11:34 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:10:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
People should note that when people bring up roads regarding anarchy, they are not saying "roads will never be built" they are only saying that it will be less efficient and more expensive.

And by "people" I don't mean "all" but a generalization of a large number of people.

Care to debate that topic? Yes, the free market generates products and services less efficiently and more costly than the alternative of a monopoly on the use of violence xD I needed the laugh today, my dog killed himself.

You can't argue in the forums or something?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
darkkermit
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10/9/2012 12:28:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/9/2012 12:22:23 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:56:56 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
There no problem coordinating economic activity; the market will take care of itself, whether through barter or through institutionalizing a commodity(ies) as currency.

The problem is with the pursuit of power, which is anarchy's inherent flaw. People want power over other people. Now I know the typical anarchist answer to that is "Private firms will discourage monopolies on violence," but who's to say that either the firms won't A) Fight with each other to secure ultimate power or B) The first established firm will ultimately have a monopoly on violence and act as a State figure.

Through evolution, humans came about before government did. Therefore, people lived in a government-free time. People voluntarily created government and choose it over a government-free system. Of course, if we reset, it would likely happen again.

One of the dominant views of why states formed is due to religion. Its pretty easy how one can see how religion causes states to form. People believe that the leader is either a god or can harness the powers of god. The people "voluntarily" give this leader resources and uses these resources allow for the formation of the state. However, these people only obey the state because he/she fears that bad things would happen to him/her in the afterlife. Or that he/she could have a bad harvest.
Open borders debate:
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Ore_Ele
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10/9/2012 12:32:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/9/2012 12:28:23 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/9/2012 12:22:23 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:56:56 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
There no problem coordinating economic activity; the market will take care of itself, whether through barter or through institutionalizing a commodity(ies) as currency.

The problem is with the pursuit of power, which is anarchy's inherent flaw. People want power over other people. Now I know the typical anarchist answer to that is "Private firms will discourage monopolies on violence," but who's to say that either the firms won't A) Fight with each other to secure ultimate power or B) The first established firm will ultimately have a monopoly on violence and act as a State figure.

Through evolution, humans came about before government did. Therefore, people lived in a government-free time. People voluntarily created government and choose it over a government-free system. Of course, if we reset, it would likely happen again.

One of the dominant views of why states formed is due to religion. Its pretty easy how one can see how religion causes states to form. People believe that the leader is either a god or can harness the powers of god. The people "voluntarily" give this leader resources and uses these resources allow for the formation of the state. However, these people only obey the state because he/she fears that bad things would happen to him/her in the afterlife. Or that he/she could have a bad harvest.

That isn't limited to religion, it can be to any source of power (usually physical power), which will always form to a small group through unrestrained competition.
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darkkermit
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10/9/2012 12:39:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/9/2012 12:32:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/9/2012 12:28:23 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/9/2012 12:22:23 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:56:56 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
There no problem coordinating economic activity; the market will take care of itself, whether through barter or through institutionalizing a commodity(ies) as currency.

The problem is with the pursuit of power, which is anarchy's inherent flaw. People want power over other people. Now I know the typical anarchist answer to that is "Private firms will discourage monopolies on violence," but who's to say that either the firms won't A) Fight with each other to secure ultimate power or B) The first established firm will ultimately have a monopoly on violence and act as a State figure.

Through evolution, humans came about before government did. Therefore, people lived in a government-free time. People voluntarily created government and choose it over a government-free system. Of course, if we reset, it would likely happen again.

One of the dominant views of why states formed is due to religion. Its pretty easy how one can see how religion causes states to form. People believe that the leader is either a god or can harness the powers of god. The people "voluntarily" give this leader resources and uses these resources allow for the formation of the state. However, these people only obey the state because he/she fears that bad things would happen to him/her in the afterlife. Or that he/she could have a bad harvest.

That isn't limited to religion, it can be to any source of power (usually physical power), which will always form to a small group through unrestrained competition.

Physical power is actually a pretty weak form of dominance, since any person can be defeated just through just numbers.
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Wallstreetatheist
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10/9/2012 12:57:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/8/2012 9:30:37 PM, imabench wrote:
If we had no wallstreetathiest, who would make all these useless threads?

This addresses one of the most common objections to anarchy. If you think it is useless, demonstrate why, don't just say it.
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Ore_Ele
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10/9/2012 1:07:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/9/2012 12:39:53 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/9/2012 12:32:03 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/9/2012 12:28:23 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/9/2012 12:22:23 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/8/2012 10:56:56 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
There no problem coordinating economic activity; the market will take care of itself, whether through barter or through institutionalizing a commodity(ies) as currency.

The problem is with the pursuit of power, which is anarchy's inherent flaw. People want power over other people. Now I know the typical anarchist answer to that is "Private firms will discourage monopolies on violence," but who's to say that either the firms won't A) Fight with each other to secure ultimate power or B) The first established firm will ultimately have a monopoly on violence and act as a State figure.

Through evolution, humans came about before government did. Therefore, people lived in a government-free time. People voluntarily created government and choose it over a government-free system. Of course, if we reset, it would likely happen again.

One of the dominant views of why states formed is due to religion. Its pretty easy how one can see how religion causes states to form. People believe that the leader is either a god or can harness the powers of god. The people "voluntarily" give this leader resources and uses these resources allow for the formation of the state. However, these people only obey the state because he/she fears that bad things would happen to him/her in the afterlife. Or that he/she could have a bad harvest.

That isn't limited to religion, it can be to any source of power (usually physical power), which will always form to a small group through unrestrained competition.

Physical power is actually a pretty weak form of dominance, since any person can be defeated just through just numbers.

It works pretty well with wars and in prison (though there is psychological dominance, but it is directly linked to physical). You can look at the spread of various empires in history. While many have claimed to be demi-gods, it is not that people believed these claims to be true that they submitted, it was that they "emperors" had a nasty habit of killing people and burning villages and crops. The fear of harm in this world (not just the next) is very powerful.
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Wallstreetatheist
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10/9/2012 1:42:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Care to debate that topic? Yes, the free market generates products and services less efficiently and more costly than the alternative of a monopoly on the use of violence xD I needed the laugh today, my dog killed himself.

You can't argue in the forums or something?

I'd rather devote energy toward a debate focused exclusively on a single topic, in depth, with the reward of its record, a reasoned judgment of its argumentation, and the allure of a well-won debate.
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