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Libertarianism Is Good !!

inferno
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10/17/2012 11:17:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I cannot believe that I am about to say this right now here today. But Libertarianism is good ! And no, I am not talking about the fallible ones know
as Gary Johnson and Ron Paul. I am speaking about a Man who will never be heard by many because of the lack of common sense in todays sick world.
His name is Rupert Boneham. I was listening to this guy in the Indiana debates
on CSPAN the other day. And he was as direct, and clear as anyone can possibly be. He spoke my language, to some degree. And he reminded me of the good ole
fashioned Abe Lincoln kind. He was authentic, and sincere. And you dont find this
characteristic in politicians anymore. Do you agree ? See links below.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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10/17/2012 11:42:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Abraham Lincoln was a terrible president who is incongruous with Libertarianism.
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Wallstreetatheist
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10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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10/17/2012 11:56:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

"Libertarianism itself" is not a thing.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/17/2012 11:57:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

If the slaves are willing to be slaves, than there's no problem. Otherwise, you're infringing upon the slaves' rights by enslaving them.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Stephen_Hawkins
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10/17/2012 11:58:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:57:28 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

If the slaves are willing to be slaves, than there's no problem. Otherwise, you're infringing upon the slaves' rights by enslaving them.

Slavery, by the very nature of its own characteristics, is not just immoral, but illiberal and inconsistent. I'll debate you on this topic, if you're willing?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/17/2012 11:59:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:58:39 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Slavery, by the very nature of its own characteristics, is not just immoral, but illiberal and inconsistent. I'll debate you on this topic, if you're willing?

If I agree to be your slave, how is it immoral?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Stephen_Hawkins
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10/17/2012 12:03:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:56:53 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

"Libertarianism itself" is not a thing.

of course libertarianism is a "thing", it's an ideology, which is a thing. I am not claiming it causes problems like a man firing a gun causes problems; I am not claiming it has a physical manifestation. I'm claiming libertarianism has been a motivating factor, even a major motivating factor, behind a large series of atrocities. Not as much as other ideologies have (e.g. Stalinism, Maoism, Luddism if we generalise the idea to include Khmer Rouge and similar), but certainly a fair few.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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10/17/2012 12:03:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
btw, i've pretty much crucified myself for criticising libertarianism on an essentially neoliberal/libertarian site, but still... :)
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
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10/17/2012 12:05:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:59:51 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:58:39 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Slavery, by the very nature of its own characteristics, is not just immoral, but illiberal and inconsistent. I'll debate you on this topic, if you're willing?

If I agree to be your slave, how is it immoral?

Again, if you're willing to debate it, I'll be happy to do so, but I'm not starting on the massive rant here, seeing as I'm planning on starting some actual work in 5 minutes or so.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/17/2012 12:07:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 12:05:42 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:59:51 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:58:39 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Slavery, by the very nature of its own characteristics, is not just immoral, but illiberal and inconsistent. I'll debate you on this topic, if you're willing?

If I agree to be your slave, how is it immoral?

Again, if you're willing to debate it, I'll be happy to do so, but I'm not starting on the massive rant here, seeing as I'm planning on starting some actual work in 5 minutes or so.

I'm actually legitimately curious.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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10/17/2012 12:11:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 12:07:55 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/17/2012 12:05:42 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:59:51 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:58:39 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Slavery, by the very nature of its own characteristics, is not just immoral, but illiberal and inconsistent. I'll debate you on this topic, if you're willing?

If I agree to be your slave, how is it immoral?

Again, if you're willing to debate it, I'll be happy to do so, but I'm not starting on the massive rant here, seeing as I'm planning on starting some actual work in 5 minutes or so.

I'm actually legitimately curious.

Rupert Boneham is as American as one can possibly be. He believes in the Constitution, civil liberties. justice, peace, and equality.
He is your basic fundamental guy who does not believe that Government should impose its will upon the American people. This guy is good !
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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10/17/2012 1:33:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Then it wasn't libertarianism. There was never any contract or mutual consent. Americans forcibly took Africans and put them to work in the states. That is a far cry from a labor contract.

Ideologically consistent libertarians would be against slavery.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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10/17/2012 2:09:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 1:33:53 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Then it wasn't libertarianism. There was never any contract or mutual consent. Americans forcibly took Africans and put them to work in the states. That is a far cry from a labor contract.

Ideologically consistent libertarians would be against slavery.

I agree.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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10/17/2012 2:49:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 12:03:06 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:56:53 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

"Libertarianism itself" is not a thing.

of course libertarianism is a "thing", it's an ideology, which is a thing. I am not claiming it causes problems like a man firing a gun causes problems; I am not claiming it has a physical manifestation. I'm claiming libertarianism has been a motivating factor, even a major motivating factor, behind a large series of atrocities. Not as much as other ideologies have (e.g. Stalinism, Maoism, Luddism if we generalise the idea to include Khmer Rouge and similar), but certainly a fair few.

Alright, if you're intent on painting it as a unitary entity, I'll bite.

What is libertarianism?
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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10/17/2012 3:59:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 2:49:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 12:03:06 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:56:53 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

"Libertarianism itself" is not a thing.

of course libertarianism is a "thing", it's an ideology, which is a thing. I am not claiming it causes problems like a man firing a gun causes problems; I am not claiming it has a physical manifestation. I'm claiming libertarianism has been a motivating factor, even a major motivating factor, behind a large series of atrocities. Not as much as other ideologies have (e.g. Stalinism, Maoism, Luddism if we generalise the idea to include Khmer Rouge and similar), but certainly a fair few.

Alright, if you're intent on painting it as a unitary entity, I'll bite.

What is libertarianism?

Interesting question there.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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10/17/2012 4:16:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 2:49:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 12:03:06 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:56:53 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

"Libertarianism itself" is not a thing.

of course libertarianism is a "thing", it's an ideology, which is a thing. I am not claiming it causes problems like a man firing a gun causes problems; I am not claiming it has a physical manifestation. I'm claiming libertarianism has been a motivating factor, even a major motivating factor, behind a large series of atrocities. Not as much as other ideologies have (e.g. Stalinism, Maoism, Luddism if we generalise the idea to include Khmer Rouge and similar), but certainly a fair few.

Alright, if you're intent on painting it as a unitary entity, I'll bite.

What is libertarianism?

Are we going to actually play this game? I can either cite the textbooks I own from studying the subject, or google it and c/p the answer, but giving my own opinion on the subject, it is an ideology based on liberal values, with a single-minded focus on negative freedom, usually negative economic freedom, and stronger emphasis on individualism than its counterpart of neoliberalism.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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10/17/2012 4:18:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 4:16:27 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 2:49:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 12:03:06 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:56:53 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

"Libertarianism itself" is not a thing.

of course libertarianism is a "thing", it's an ideology, which is a thing. I am not claiming it causes problems like a man firing a gun causes problems; I am not claiming it has a physical manifestation. I'm claiming libertarianism has been a motivating factor, even a major motivating factor, behind a large series of atrocities. Not as much as other ideologies have (e.g. Stalinism, Maoism, Luddism if we generalise the idea to include Khmer Rouge and similar), but certainly a fair few.

Alright, if you're intent on painting it as a unitary entity, I'll bite.

What is libertarianism?

Are we going to actually play this game? I can either cite the textbooks I own from studying the subject, or google it and c/p the answer, but giving my own opinion on the subject, it is an ideology based on liberal values, with a single-minded focus on negative freedom, usually negative economic freedom, and stronger emphasis on individualism than its counterpart of neoliberalism.

Are you familliar with Rupert Boneham.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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10/17/2012 4:46:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 4:18:44 PM, inferno wrote:
At 10/17/2012 4:16:27 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 2:49:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 12:03:06 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:56:53 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.

"Libertarianism itself" is not a thing.

of course libertarianism is a "thing", it's an ideology, which is a thing. I am not claiming it causes problems like a man firing a gun causes problems; I am not claiming it has a physical manifestation. I'm claiming libertarianism has been a motivating factor, even a major motivating factor, behind a large series of atrocities. Not as much as other ideologies have (e.g. Stalinism, Maoism, Luddism if we generalise the idea to include Khmer Rouge and similar), but certainly a fair few.

Alright, if you're intent on painting it as a unitary entity, I'll bite.

What is libertarianism?

Are we going to actually play this game? I can either cite the textbooks I own from studying the subject, or google it and c/p the answer, but giving my own opinion on the subject, it is an ideology based on liberal values, with a single-minded focus on negative freedom, usually negative economic freedom, and stronger emphasis on individualism than its counterpart of neoliberalism.

Are you familliar with Rupert Boneham.

No, and I frankly don't care. All I know is that if you google him, the fifth picture that comes up is Hagrid. Also, you've not used a question mark, so I'm not sure whether it's a question or not, though I've assumed it is.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
DanT
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10/17/2012 4:55:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Lincoln didn't abolish slavery. Lincoln's only concern was the union. He was a nationalist. He opposed slavery during his campaign because the slavery was not nationalist, it was southern-sectionalist. He wanted the south and west to become industrialized. He also favored protective tariffs, which is anti-libertarian.
Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.
Name your imaginary problems... With proof.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cody_Franklin
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10/17/2012 5:14:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 4:16:27 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 2:49:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Alright, if you're intent on painting it as a unitary entity, I'll bite.

What is libertarianism?

Are we going to actually play this game? I can either cite the textbooks I own from studying the subject, or google it and c/p the answer, but giving my own opinion on the subject, it is an ideology based on liberal values, with a single-minded focus on negative freedom, usually negative economic freedom, and stronger emphasis on individualism than its counterpart of neoliberalism.

I've met plenty of libertarians and anarchists who don't have a "single-minded focus on negative freedom", or a strong emphasis on individualism. Are they not "true libertarians"?
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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10/17/2012 5:17:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I live in Indiana....no way in hell will he get elected.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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inferno
Posts: 10,556
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10/17/2012 5:23:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 5:17:06 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I live in Indiana....no way in hell will he get elected.

Youre just saying that because he is NOT part of the status quo. And he is not even close to being as whacky as Ron Paul and you know this.
He is a straightforward, common sense, stick to basics kind of guy.
And if any of you took that time to listen to his debates, then you would know.
OberHerr
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10/17/2012 5:27:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 5:23:59 PM, inferno wrote:
At 10/17/2012 5:17:06 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I live in Indiana....no way in hell will he get elected.

Youre just saying that because he is NOT part of the status quo. And he is not even close to being as whacky as Ron Paul and you know this.
He is a straightforward, common sense, stick to basics kind of guy.
And if any of you took that time to listen to his debates, then you would know.

Just like every other far more qualified and better candidate out there.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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10/17/2012 5:30:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 5:14:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 4:16:27 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 2:49:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Alright, if you're intent on painting it as a unitary entity, I'll bite.

What is libertarianism?

Are we going to actually play this game? I can either cite the textbooks I own from studying the subject, or google it and c/p the answer, but giving my own opinion on the subject, it is an ideology based on liberal values, with a single-minded focus on negative freedom, usually negative economic freedom, and stronger emphasis on individualism than its counterpart of neoliberalism.

I've met plenty of libertarians and anarchists who don't have a "single-minded focus on negative freedom", or a strong emphasis on individualism. Are they not "true libertarians"?

Single-minded may be too strong a term, but a larger belief of negative freedom, yes. And emphasis on individualism, yes. These are defining qualities of libertarianism. If I see something that walks like a duck and all that. And vice versa. "I'm a libertarian who has a strong belief in collectivism" isn't libertarian, nor is one who claims "The government needs taxation to fund basic services like healthcare and education, and should use force if needed".

And inb4 No True Scotsman Fallacy: I'm not saying they are libertarians to begin with, they fall in a different category (or none at all). I've given a clear definition of what makes one a libertarian, and - unless I've made a blunder in communication - I'm sticking to it. This is also the general consensus definition of libertarianism.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
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10/17/2012 5:34:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 4:55:16 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Lincoln didn't abolish slavery. Lincoln's only concern was the union. He was a nationalist. He opposed slavery during his campaign because the slavery was not nationalist, it was southern-sectionalist. He wanted the south and west to become industrialized. He also favored protective tariffs, which is anti-libertarian.

Never said Lincoln was libertarian. Never said Lincoln wanted to keep slavery. Never said anything at all like that, in fact.

http://web.inter.nl.net...
http://cog.kent.edu...

To reiterate,

Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.
Name your imaginary problems... With proof.

I named it already. What you did was a red herring on a loosely related topic of slavery, but not mentioning libertarianism, a libertarian, or the promotion of slavery. It'd be like me randomly saying Slavery was defined in the League of Nations in 1926. It'd just be randomly off-point.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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10/17/2012 5:50:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 5:30:19 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 5:14:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/17/2012 4:16:27 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 2:49:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Alright, if you're intent on painting it as a unitary entity, I'll bite.

What is libertarianism?

Are we going to actually play this game? I can either cite the textbooks I own from studying the subject, or google it and c/p the answer, but giving my own opinion on the subject, it is an ideology based on liberal values, with a single-minded focus on negative freedom, usually negative economic freedom, and stronger emphasis on individualism than its counterpart of neoliberalism.

I've met plenty of libertarians and anarchists who don't have a "single-minded focus on negative freedom", or a strong emphasis on individualism. Are they not "true libertarians"?

Single-minded may be too strong a term, but a larger belief of negative freedom, yes. And emphasis on individualism, yes. These are defining qualities of libertarianism. If I see something that walks like a duck and all that. And vice versa. "I'm a libertarian who has a strong belief in collectivism" isn't libertarian, nor is one who claims "The government needs taxation to fund basic services like healthcare and education, and should use force if needed".

Not what I mean. There's a strong left-libertarian tradition, e.g., the mutualists and the agorists, who emphasize the role of shared responsibility and mutual assistance, rather than classical liberal-esque "rugged individualism" as a way of advancing human flourishing. Many of these individuals not only de-emphasize the the power of the individual, but also remark that negative freedom is only a necessary condition, and that what we do with the space of human activity that opens up is what's more important, and is the thing toward which the brunt of our effort ought to be oriented (particularly because many of these individuals advocate going around/replacing the state, rather than directly confronting it).

And inb4 No True Scotsman Fallacy: I'm not saying they are libertarians to begin with, they fall in a different category (or none at all). I've given a clear definition of what makes one a libertarian, and - unless I've made a blunder in communication - I'm sticking to it. This is also the general consensus definition of libertarianism.

I don't think that's the consensus of the people who would classify themselves as libertarians. You might have a biased sample because that's what most of the libertarians on DDO or like, or because the Ron Paul people dominate mainstream coverage of libertarianism; however, there is a deep and vibrant subculture whose surface is barely scratched by your description, and I think it does libertarian thought a large disservice to represent it so one-dimensionally. I think, consequently, that it also does the project a disservice by putting an image in peoples' minds of what libertarians are like (which is a problem replicated by the Tea Party and people like Paul Ryan) which does not at all coincide with what the most involved and committed kinds of liberty advocates are really like.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/17/2012 6:02:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 5:34:24 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 4:55:16 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:54:34 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:43:07 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Libertarianism: The radical notion that other people are not your property.

Slavery: that thing that American libertarians backed on the grounds that one should not have the government intervene in contracts of any kind.

Lincoln didn't abolish slavery. Lincoln's only concern was the union. He was a nationalist. He opposed slavery during his campaign because the slavery was not nationalist, it was southern-sectionalist. He wanted the south and west to become industrialized. He also favored protective tariffs, which is anti-libertarian.

Never said Lincoln was libertarian. Never said Lincoln wanted to keep slavery. Never said anything at all like that, in fact.

http://web.inter.nl.net...
http://cog.kent.edu...

To reiterate,

sorry i misread. Voluntary slavery should be allowed, but involuntary or hereditary slavery should not. If someone cannot pay their debts, they should be allowed to hold themselves as collateral. Their offspring should not be bound by their parent's contact, nor should such contract be imposed involuntarily.
Quite frankly, libertarianism may have merit or not, but libertarianism itself has lead to problems which people seem not to want to accept existed.
Name your imaginary problems... With proof.

I named it already. What you did was a red herring on a loosely related topic of slavery, but not mentioning libertarianism, a libertarian, or the promotion of slavery. It'd be like me randomly saying Slavery was defined in the League of Nations in 1926. It'd just be randomly off-point.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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10/17/2012 7:10:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm voting for him.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler