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thett3
Posts: 14,371
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11/1/2012 8:35:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A compulsive monopoly of ultimate jurisdiction over a geographical territory
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jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
emospongebob527
Posts: 790
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11/1/2012 8:39:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The governing body of a nation, state, or community.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/1/2012 8:55:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

A Government is any organization with the power to make, amend and repeal laws.
A State is any organization with the power to put plans, actions, or laws into effect.

For example, the US in Congress Assembled was a Confederate Government, but it was not a state. The member states of the confederation was responsible for putting plans, actions, or laws into effect.

The US Federation is both a Federal Government, and Union State; it can make, amend, repeal and administer laws.

In order for a Government to be a state it must have executive authority. In order for an organization to be a government it must have legislative authority.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?
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jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 8:58:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

Example?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/1/2012 9:00:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:35:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
A compulsive monopoly of ultimate jurisdiction over a geographical territory
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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: I disagree.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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11/1/2012 9:02:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:55:50 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

A Government is any organization with the power to make, amend and repeal laws.

Would you say the "exclusive right" to make, amend, and repeal laws?

A State is any organization with the power to put plans, actions, or laws into effect.

If they have the power to put laws into effect, but no one recognizes the organizations authority, is it still a state?

In order for a Government to be a state it must have executive authority. In order for an organization to be a government it must have legislative authority.

So without the widespread perception of its authority, would these institutions have any power over us?
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jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 9:02:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

I never said they "need" to.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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11/1/2012 9:04:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:58:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

Example?

Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."
http://www.ozarkia.net...
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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11/1/2012 9:05:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:02:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

I never said they "need" to.

That's true. You think that it is a natural by-product of civilization/society, correct?
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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/1/2012 9:06:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 8:58:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

Example?

Pennsylvania seems to have had a brief stint: http://www.lewrockwell.com...
Medieval Iceland: http://mises.org...
Ukraine Free Territories: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Parts of Catalonia in the 30's: http://en.wikipedia.org...
The entirety of society pre- the formation of States lol........

Basically any part of society that exists without use of force. Anarchism is a negative ideology. If you want to look at positive setups see the above. But anarchism as just not the State exists everywhere we don't use force or threat of force to get things done.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 9:09:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:04:22 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:58:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

Example?

Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."
http://www.ozarkia.net...

Is this what you are talking about?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org...
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
TheBloodyScot
Posts: 59
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11/1/2012 9:11:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Don't forget the ability to spend money wisely.
Something is not worth doing if it is not worth doing right.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus

"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing."
-Socrates
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 9:14:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:05:16 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 9:02:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

I never said they "need" to.

That's true. You think that it is a natural by-product of civilization/society, correct?

Correct.

Look at Freetown

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Starts out with no rules but ends up with rules. If you read on a guy tried to build a shack in an open area in "Freetown" and the people told him couldn't. These are nothing more then zoning laws that haven't made it to paper yet. They told the guy he would have to talk to the "community" about building there.

If that community stood for a long time a government would form. Maybe not exactly like the US or England. But something would form.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/1/2012 9:15:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:02:31 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:55:50 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

A Government is any organization with the power to make, amend and repeal laws.

Would you say the "exclusive right" to make, amend, and repeal laws?

No. There can be multiple governments sharing power, such as with Confederations and Federations, or with two states sharing geographical jurisdiction but governing different nations living within that jurisdiction.
A State is any organization with the power to put plans, actions, or laws into effect.

If they have the power to put laws into effect, but no one recognizes the organizations authority, is it still a state?

A state has a leadership role. In order for someone to be a leader they must have followers. If an individual does not recognize the state's authority he can denounce citizenship. If a minority group of individuals within the community does not recognize the state's authority they have a right to secede. If a majority of the community does not recognize the state's legitimacy they have a right to alter or abolish it, and replace it with a new political body.
In order for a Government to be a state it must have executive authority. In order for an organization to be a government it must have legislative authority.

So without the widespread perception of its authority, would these institutions have any power over us?

Legitimately no. A n oppressive state can always force people to follow them. Such as Nazi Germany, where people who opposed to the state openly praised the state out of fear.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 9:31:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:09:56 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 9:04:22 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:58:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

Example?

Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."
http://www.ozarkia.net...


Is this what you are talking about?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

If this is what you are talking about it contradicts the "anarchistic" view given by your post

In 1541 the Kingdom of Ireland was established and the English monarchy began to conquer the island.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/1/2012 9:33:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:31:30 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 9:09:56 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 9:04:22 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:58:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

Example?

Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."
http://www.ozarkia.net...


Is this what you are talking about?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

If this is what you are talking about it contradicts the "anarchistic" view given by your post


In 1541 the Kingdom of Ireland was established and the English monarchy began to conquer the island.

*Looks at WSA's post*

*650-1650*

*facepalm*
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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11/1/2012 9:33:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:14:47 PM, jharry wrote:

Starts out with no rules but ends up with rules. If you read on a guy tried to build a shack in an open area in "Freetown" and the people told him couldn't. These are nothing more then zoning laws that haven't made it to paper yet. They told the guy he would have to talk to the "community" about building there.

Anarchy has rules. The difference is that the rules are based on protecting life, liberty, and property through a system of voluntary arbitration mechanisms, instead of through a legitimized criminal organization whose adherents call "government."
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jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 9:40:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:33:31 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/1/2012 9:31:30 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 9:09:56 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 9:04:22 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:58:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:57:39 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:36:42 PM, jharry wrote:
At 11/1/2012 8:32:23 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
What is your definition of "Government"?

Societies reaction to having to live together.

There have been societies without governments that have survived longer than societies with governments. What leads you to believe that society needs to form a government?

Example?

Celtic Ireland (650-1650)
In Celtic Irish society, the courts and the law were largely libertarian, and operated within a purely state-less manner. This society persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe. A leading authority on ancient Irish law wrote, "There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justice... There was no trace of State-administered justice."
http://www.ozarkia.net...


Is this what you are talking about?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

If this is what you are talking about it contradicts the "anarchistic" view given by your post


In 1541 the Kingdom of Ireland was established and the English monarchy began to conquer the island.

*Looks at WSA's post*

*650-1650*

*facepalm*

1541AD is over one hundred years before Ireland was conquered by England. So yes, a government formed before the end of the society.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 9:41:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:33:57 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/1/2012 9:14:47 PM, jharry wrote:

Starts out with no rules but ends up with rules. If you read on a guy tried to build a shack in an open area in "Freetown" and the people told him couldn't. These are nothing more then zoning laws that haven't made it to paper yet. They told the guy he would have to talk to the "community" about building there.

Anarchy has rules. The difference is that the rules are based on protecting life, liberty, and property through a system of voluntary arbitration mechanisms, instead of through a legitimized criminal organization whose adherents call "government."

And the people of "Freetown" would use force to enforce their rules. Difference?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/1/2012 9:59:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Finding Freetown solidified my position on governments. They will form as society grows. If we remain goat herders and farmers spread across huge areas a lawless society may remain but there would be no need for a form of government in that situation.

Freetown started out with no laws, no rules and no government. Due to human nature and living together some sort of government will form.

Let's say Freetown grows. Now a community meeting will become chaos and nothing will be accomplished. What is the next logical step?

Representatives. These people would go to these meetings to speak for the area or demographic they represent.

Now Freetown grows even more.

Just like in Home Washington divisions will form as they did between the "nudes" and the "prudes". Now we can logically see states forming. And the practical need for more organization.

Now Freetown has become a economic power in the region. Now we need representation for the community as a whole. Can anyone say President?

A couple hundred years and a bunch of babies we end up with a nation and a government.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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11/1/2012 10:27:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 9:15:25 PM, DanT wrote:
A state has a leadership role.

Who rules if no one obeys?

If a majority of the community does not recognize the state's legitimacy they have a right to alter or abolish it, and replace it with a new political body.

What if they don't want a new political body?

Legitimately no. An oppressive state can always force people to follow them. Such as Nazi Germany, where people who opposed to the state openly praised the state out of fear.

How would a government rule by brute force if a well-armed population with a good communication network didn't recognize an oppressive state's authority?
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TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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11/1/2012 10:49:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
General definition:
A collection of power elites who attempt to control certain aspects of human lives for their own benefits.

There are always some exceptions. But the general definition should fit the ordinary circumstances very well.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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11/1/2012 10:50:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 10:49:23 PM, TheElderScroll wrote:
General definition:
A collection of power elites who attempt to control certain aspects of human lives for their own benefits.

There are always some exceptions. But the general definition should fit the ordinary circumstances very well.

There is more than one Elder Scroll dammit!
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TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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11/1/2012 10:53:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/1/2012 10:50:00 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/1/2012 10:49:23 PM, TheElderScroll wrote:
General definition:
A collection of power elites who attempt to control certain aspects of human lives for their own benefits.

There are always some exceptions. But the general definition should fit the ordinary circumstances very well.

There is more than one Elder Scroll dammit!

Hehe. I like Mass Effect better.