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Milton Friedman Destroys War On Drugs Logic

jat93
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11/2/2012 3:25:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The following is an excerpt from "Friedman & Szasz On Liberty and Drugs." It is from a 1991 interview on "America's Drug Forum," a national public affairs talk show that appeared on public television stations. Milton Friedman, Nobel Prize winning economist, is interviewed by Randy Paige, Emmy award winning drug reporter. I've never seen the logic behind drug prohibition so brilliantly and astutely destroyed. This dude was such a genius.

Friedman: The proper role of government is exactly what John Stuart Mill Said in the middle of the 19th century in "On Liberty." The proper role of government is to prevent other people from harming an individual. Government, he said, never has any right to interfere with an individual for that individual's own good.

The case for prohibiting drugs is exactly as strong and as weak as the case for prohibiting people from overeating. We all know that overeating causes more deaths than drugs do. If it's in principle OK for the government to say you must not consume drugs because they'll do you harm, why isn't it all right to say you must not eat too much because you'll do harm? Why isn't it all right to say you must not try to go in for skydiving because you're likely to die? Why isn't it all right to say, "Oh, skiing, that's no good, that's a very dangerous sport, you'll hurt yourself"? Where do you draw the line?

Paige: Well, I would bet that former drug czar William Bennet, some other folks along those lines, would probably suggest that the present sale and distribution of illegal drugs is, in fact, an enterprise which harms another person and the government has to step in...

Friedman: [Simultaneously] It does harm a great many...

Paige:...to protect the vulnerable.

Friedman: It does harm a great many other people, but primarily because it's prohibited. There are an enormous number of innocent victims now. You've got the people whose purses are stolen, who are bashed over the head by people trying to get enough money for their next fix. You've got the people killed in the random drug wars. You've got the corruption of the legal establishment. You've got the innocent victims who are taxpayers who have to pay for more and more prisons, and more and more prisoners, and more and more police. You've got the rest of us who don't get decent law enforcement because all the law enforcement officials are busy trying to do the impossible.

Friedman: And, last, but not least, you've got the people of Colombia and Peru and so on. What business do we have destroying and leading to the killing of thousands of people in Colombia because we cannot enforce our own laws? If we could enforce our laws against drugs, there would be no market for these drugs. You wouldn't have Colombia in the state it's in.

Paige: Is it not true that the entire discussion here, the entire drug problem is an economic problem to...

Friedman: No, it's not an economic problem at all, it's a moral problem.

Paige: In what way?

Friedman: I'm an economist, but the economics problem is strictly tertiary. It's a moral problem. It's a problem of the harm which the government is doing.

I have estimated statistically that the prohibition of drugs produces, on the average, ten thousand homicides a year. It's a moral problem that the government is going around killing ten thousand people. It's a moral problem that the government is making into criminals people, who may be doing something you and I don't approve of, but who are doing something that hurts nobody else. Most of the arrests for drugs are for possession by casual users.

Now here's somebody who wants to smoke a marijuana cigarette. If he's caught, he goes to jail. Now is that moral? Is that proper? I think it's absolutely disgraceful that our government, supposed to be our government, should be in the position of converting people who are not harming others into criminals, of destroying their lives, putting them in jail. That's the issue to me. The economic issue comes in only for explaining why it has those effects. But the economic reasons are not the reasons.

Of course, we're wasting money on it. Ten, twenty, thirty billion dollars a year, but that's trivial. We're wasting that much money in many other ways, such as buying crops that ought never to be produced.

Paige: There are many who would look at the economics--how the economics of the drug business is affecting America's major inner cities, for example.

Friedman: Of course it is, and it is because it's prohibited. See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That's literally true.

Paige: Is it doing a good job of it?

Friedman: Excellent. What do I mean by that? In an ordinary free market--let's take potatoes, beef, anything you want--there are thousands of importers and exporters. Anybody can go into the business. But it's very hard for a small person to go into the drug importing business because our interdiction efforts essentially make it enormously costly. So, the only people who can survive in that business are these large Medellin cartel kind of people who have enough money so they can have fleets of airplanes, so they can have sophisticated methods, and so on.

In addition to which, by keeping goods out and by arresting, let's say, local marijuana growers, the government keeps the price of these products high. What more could a monopolist want? He's got a government who makes it very hard for all his competitors and who keeps the price of his products high. It's absolutely heaven.
OberHerr
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11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And this matters because....?
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socialpinko
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11/2/2012 3:42:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

*checks to see if the government is still waging a War on Drugs*
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: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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jat93
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11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....
OberHerr
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11/2/2012 3:47:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

I'm just saying why are you posting this here? Almost no one is for the Drug War here.
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/2/2012 3:50:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:47:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

I'm just saying why are you posting this here? Almost no one is for the Drug War here.

nope. jharry and jaxonraine immediately come to mind, I'm sure there a handful more
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
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11/2/2012 3:50:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:50:03 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:47:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

I'm just saying why are you posting this here? Almost no one is for the Drug War here.

nope. jharry and medic immediately come to mind, I'm sure there a handful more

*fixed
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jat93
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11/2/2012 3:52:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My favorite quotes from this interview:

"See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That's literally true."

"I have estimated statistically that the prohibition of drugs produces, on the average, ten thousand homicides a year. It's a moral problem that the government is going around killing ten thousand people. It's a moral problem that the government is making into criminals people, who may be doing something you and I don't approve of, but who are doing something that hurts nobody else."

"The case for prohibiting drugs is exactly as strong and as weak as the case for prohibiting people from overeating. We all know that overeating causes more deaths than drugs do. If it's in principle OK for the government to say you must not consume drugs because they'll do you harm, why isn't it all right to say you must not eat too much because you'll do harm? Why isn't it all right to say you must not try to go in for skydiving because you're likely to die? Why isn't it all right to say, 'Oh, skiing, that's no good, that's a very dangerous sport, you'll hurt yourself'? Where do you draw the line?"
OberHerr
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11/2/2012 3:53:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:50:03 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:47:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

I'm just saying why are you posting this here? Almost no one is for the Drug War here.

nope. jharry and jaxonraine immediately come to mind, I'm sure there a handful more
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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blameworthy
Posts: 431
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11/2/2012 3:55:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:53:38 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:50:03 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:47:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

I'm just saying why are you posting this here? Almost no one is for the Drug War here.

nope. jharry and jaxonraine immediately come to mind, I'm sure there a handful more

He can post whatever he likes. If you have a problem with the thread, you are under no obligation to post. Why are you so hostile to everybody?
000ike
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11/2/2012 3:56:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:53:38 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:50:03 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:47:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

I'm just saying why are you posting this here? Almost no one is for the Drug War here.

nope. jharry and jaxonraine immediately come to mind, I'm sure there a handful more

What does "almost" mean, if there's a whole religious, authoritarian, liberal, and conservative sector of the site that applies? http://www.debate.org... 50% to 50%.......
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jat93
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11/2/2012 3:56:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:47:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

I'm just saying why are you posting this here? Almost no one is for the Drug War here.

Okay even if this were true which it isn't as ike pointed out, who cares? Should I only post things if people are going to disagree with it? Jeez, I was just sharing an interesting and thought provoking interview. If there's something that interests me related to politics, and its a topic I feel is important, I'm going to share it, and hope I get some interesting feedback...
lewis20
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11/2/2012 4:01:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If they had this shirt in my size of her it and wear it with pride
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Kinesis
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11/2/2012 4:27:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:42:16 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

*checks to see if the government is still waging a War on Drugs*

The government is waging the war on drugs because politicians broadly represent public beliefs, and most people would feel very uncomfortable legalising substances like heroin and cocaine.

Personally, I think that what should happen is that we legalise drugs for a few years, and if the results are disastrous recriminalise it. But that kind of experimentation is politically impossible obviously.
16kadams
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11/2/2012 5:32:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 4:27:33 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:42:16 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

*checks to see if the government is still waging a War on Drugs*

The government is waging the war on drugs because politicians broadly represent public beliefs, and most people would feel very uncomfortable legalising substances like heroin and cocaine.

Personally, I think that what should happen is that we legalise drugs for a few years, and if the results are disastrous recriminalise it. But that kind of experimentation is politically impossible obviously.

Florida did that with conceal carry.

Make it a state issue and go.
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medic0506
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11/2/2012 6:31:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

Wrong. It's the demand for drugs that causes these problems, and people like you are it's enablers. Drug use is not victimless and claiming that it is is just wrong-headed. You wanna fix these things you call problems?? Then stop using and advocating for others to use drugs. Demand will dry up and the problems will disappear. Legalize drugs and you just create a whole new set of problems. That's ignorant logic.
medic0506
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11/2/2012 6:36:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 4:01:09 PM, lewis20 wrote:
If they had this shirt in my size of her it and wear it with pride
http://store.theonion.com...

And I'm sure your parents would be so proud of you for taking a stand on such an important issue.
socialpinko
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11/2/2012 6:43:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 6:31:37 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

Wrong. It's the demand for drugs that causes these problems,

First of all, literally every single one of the things he just described are caused specifically by criminalization. Now I assume you buy into the thought that cartels make stopping drug use important. Of course I wonder why the mafia/cartels stopped dealing in alcohol the minute after it was legalized. Let's think about this for a minute shall we?

and people like you are it's enablers. Drug use is not victimless and claiming that it is is just wrong-headed.

Who's the victim exactly (save the user in certain cases)?

You wanna fix these things you call problems?? Then stop using and advocating for others to use drugs. Demand will dry up and the problems will disappear.

Criminalization has had no effect on demand.

Legalize drugs and you just create a whole new set of problems. That's ignorant logic.

Ignorant logic is looking at the total levelness of demand over the last several decades and sticking to the idea that it can still be stopped by some magic wand criminalization.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
jharry
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11/2/2012 6:48:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've seen a lot of good feedback here.

Make it a State issue, actually, a county issue.

I don't want drugs in my community. I vote for the guy that reflects my opinion. It's not that the government decided to go against my will.

If you make it legal it becomes easier to get and more abundant, I know almost as many people that have lost everything due to prescription drugs as I do illegal drugs. There is no assurance the black market will evaporate. There is still a black market for alcohol, cigs and prescription drugs.
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/2/2012 6:48:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 6:43:14 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/2/2012 6:31:37 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

Wrong. It's the demand for drugs that causes these problems,

First of all, literally every single one of the things he just described are caused specifically by criminalization. Now I assume you buy into the thought that cartels make stopping drug use important. Of course I wonder why the mafia/cartels stopped dealing in alcohol the minute after it was legalized. Let's think about this for a minute shall we?

and people like you are it's enablers. Drug use is not victimless and claiming that it is is just wrong-headed.

Who's the victim exactly (save the user in certain cases)?

You wanna fix these things you call problems?? Then stop using and advocating for others to use drugs. Demand will dry up and the problems will disappear.

Criminalization has had no effect on demand.

Legalize drugs and you just create a whole new set of problems. That's ignorant logic.

Ignorant logic is looking at the total levelness of demand over the last several decades and sticking to the idea that it can still be stopped by some magic wand criminalization.

I'd disagree with you on that one. Many citizens are compliant with laws so when the government says its illegal, they follow it. You and I are one of the exceptions to the rule, who don't care too much about laws. At the very least, it decrease quantity due to the decrease in supply.
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darkkermit
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11/2/2012 6:51:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
actually it should theoretically decrease demand, because even if you don't see the government as a moral authority, at the very least you fear its force.
Open borders debate:
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OberHerr
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11/2/2012 6:53:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 6:43:14 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Criminalization has had no effect on demand.

I don't disagreed with you on this issue, or not that much at least, but this is just false.

Like DK said, a lot of people DO follow laws, and its considered a stupid thing to do drugs. Plus, it makes it more expensive and harder get.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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jharry
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11/2/2012 6:57:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 6:43:14 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/2/2012 6:31:37 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

Wrong. It's the demand for drugs that causes these problems,

First of all, literally every single one of the things he just described are caused specifically by criminalization. Now I assume you buy into the thought that cartels make stopping drug use important. Of course I wonder why the mafia/cartels stopped dealing in alcohol the minute after it was legalized. Let's think about this for a minute shall we?

Organized crime is still in alcohol, cigs, prescription drugs and any thing else they cam turn a buck on. Always have been and always will. If you legalize any drug guys will start boosting it and selling it in the ever present black market. As long as humans exist crime we too.


and people like you are it's enablers. Drug use is not victimless and claiming that it is is just wrong-headed.

Who's the victim exactly (save the user in certain cases)?

Do you really think people will stop stealing just because it's legal? Do you really want me to believe every car jacking is due to a junkie wanting a fix?

You wanna fix these things you call problems?? Then stop using and advocating for others to use drugs. Demand will dry up and the problems will disappear.

Criminalization has had no effect on demand.

It will always be there as long as there is a demand. If not to get it period it will be to get it cheaper, just like every other thing on the planet humans desire.

Legalize drugs and you just create a whole new set of problems. That's ignorant logic.

Ignorant logic is looking at the total levelness of demand over the last several decades and sticking to the idea that it can still be stopped by some magic wand criminalization.

There will be crime as long as humans walk this earth. So that argument is irrelevant.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
medic0506
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11/2/2012 7:48:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 6:43:14 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/2/2012 6:31:37 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:45:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/2/2012 3:25:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And this matters because....?

This matters because the war on drugs is leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, locking up hundreds of thousands of people for harmless, victimless "crimes," (this is a big part of why the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world's prisoners, which is a problem on many levels), gave police unprecedented ability to disregard the 4th amendment to the constitution... Oh, and it's a waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Yeah, I'd say the issue of whether or not the war on drug is justified, worthwhile, effective, etc. is pretty important....

Wrong. It's the demand for drugs that causes these problems,

First of all, literally every single one of the things he just described are caused specifically by criminalization.

No, they're caused by drug use and abuse, which causes a demand for the product. Eliminate the demand and all those problems will disappear, guaranteed.

Now I assume you buy into the thought that cartels make stopping drug use important. Of course I wonder why the mafia/cartels stopped dealing in alcohol the minute after it was legalized. Let's think about this for a minute shall we?

Problem is that only one side of this debate is doing any thinking. There is no known good that comes with drug use and abuse, therefore, no justifiable reason for decriminalizing it.
You think the mafia is out of the alcohol racket??

and people like you are it's enablers. Drug use is not victimless and claiming that it is is just wrong-headed.

Who's the victim exactly (save the user in certain cases)?

Who the victim is depends on the individual situation, but there is always someone other than the user/abuser who has to suffer. Parents, spouses, children, other family members, co-workers, friends, the community, taxpayers, and society in general are all victims of drug use.

You wanna fix these things you call problems?? Then stop using and advocating for others to use drugs. Demand will dry up and the problems will disappear.

Criminalization has had no effect on demand.

I strongly disagree with you here. No, it doesn't eliminate demand, but it certainly discourages law abiding citizens from partaking.

Legalize drugs and you just create a whole new set of problems. That's ignorant logic.

Ignorant logic is looking at the total levelness of demand over the last several decades and sticking to the idea that it can still be stopped by some magic wand criminalization.

Decrease demand by making it legal and sending the message that it's ok to use drugs?? That really makes sense to you?? Look at all the abuses in the prescription pot case. Do you still think that making it legal will reduce demand?? Seems to me like you don't even want to reduce demand, you're just using that as an argument.

What if we legalize it, will we still have it be off-limits for certain segments of the population?? People who are subject to random drug testing now will have to be allowed to use it. Do you want doctors, paramedics, cops, teachers, bank employees, people who are responsible for making sure you get your correct paycheck, etc. to be able to use drugs?? Not allowing them to use it recreationally would be discrimination, right?? Is this really the avenue you want to go down, rather than doing the sensible thing and trying to get rid of the demand??

Even having to have this debate shows what a horrible moral state this country is in. What's next, prostitution should be legal too??
medic0506
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11/2/2012 7:57:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 3:52:30 PM, jat93 wrote:
My favorite quotes from this interview:

"See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That's literally true."

Based on the assumption that we're the criminal in this equation, instead of blaming it on those who create the demand. Ludicrous.

"I have estimated statistically that the prohibition of drugs produces, on the average, ten thousand homicides a year. It's a moral problem that the government is going around killing ten thousand people. It's a moral problem that the government is making into criminals people, who may be doing something you and I don't approve of, but who are doing something that hurts nobody else."

It's a moral problem that a grown man blames law abiding citizens for this problem instead of the drug abusers. It's a moral problem that a grown man argues drug abuse as a victimless action.

"The case for prohibiting drugs is exactly as strong and as weak as the case for prohibiting people from overeating. We all know that overeating causes more deaths than drugs do. If it's in principle OK for the government to say you must not consume drugs because they'll do you harm, why isn't it all right to say you must not eat too much because you'll do harm? Why isn't it all right to say you must not try to go in for skydiving because you're likely to die? Why isn't it all right to say, 'Oh, skiing, that's no good, that's a very dangerous sport, you'll hurt yourself'? Where do you draw the line?"

Food is necessary for our survival, but you can't stop overindulgence. Food has inherent value. There is no use of pot that is not abusive, therefore, there is no inherent value to it and no justifiable reason for it being legal to use.
lewis20
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11/2/2012 8:18:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think my generation will get marijuana legalized, I don't think it will cause an apocalyptic uprising of heroin junkie criminals.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
jharry
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11/2/2012 8:20:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
As I have said in another thread. I have no problem if you want drugs to be legal as long as it is not in my community. If you want to advocate drug use in your community then go for it, you and your community can pay the price for your choices, but the reason there is a war on drugs is because people don't want it in their community.

Laws come about because a community desires them. Look at an attempt at a society without rules.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Freetown. They had an open pot market but still put a ban on hard drugs because they had a negative effect on their community. But instead they didn't pay taxes while the government around them,that they reject, helps slow the traffic so they can ban it.

They end up relying on the public police.

They have to deal with the same issues with making room for parking that normal governments and societies do.

They end up with unwritten rules for zoning.

Their "community" becomes the government.

Bottom line, drugs have a negative effect on communities and have, are and will be criminalized by society.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
lewis20
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11/2/2012 8:22:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The only arguments I've seen against weed are personal, it ruined my aunts friends cousin stories. Against the mountain of empirical and logical reasons for legalization.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
jharry
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11/2/2012 8:27:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 8:22:16 PM, lewis20 wrote:
The only arguments I've seen against weed are personal, it ruined my aunts friends cousin stories. Against the mountain of empirical and logical reasons for legalization.

Hmmm. So I guess personal stories don't matter right? Logic is more important then the lives destroyed?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen