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Libertarian vs. Moderate

GeoLaureate8
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11/5/2012 3:48:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Libertarians and Moderates both claim to have aspects from both Left & Right.

Libertarians are more fiscally conservative than the Right and more socially free than the Left.

So what is the Moderate? More socially restrictive than the Left and less fiscally responsible than the Right? Why would anyone pick Moderate over Libertarian? It sounds like the Moderate likes the status quo norm from both sides.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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11/5/2012 3:59:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 3:56:39 PM, blameworthy wrote:
The right is fiscally responsible?

Not quite, but they claim that as their platform and they are in fact more fiscally responsible than the Left.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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11/5/2012 4:05:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:00:31 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Moderates tend to lean Libertarian, actually.

So where do Moderates differ from Libertarians? Because Libertarians are thought of as extreme and crazy for supporting freedom and free markets (see Ron Paul). Yet Moderates are not seen as extreme.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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11/5/2012 4:10:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It depends what you mean by moderate. I usually conceive of it through a 2d axis like the one on politicalcompass.com with social and economic views forming the lines. With economic views the meaning is pretty straight forward but it would seem that moderate could encompass a wide variety of views with different emphasis on different issues.
blameworthy
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11/5/2012 4:12:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would venture that most "Moderates" are politically apathetic individuals who simply seek to avoid political conflict and discourse.
blameworthy
Posts: 431
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11/5/2012 4:14:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 3:59:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/5/2012 3:56:39 PM, blameworthy wrote:
The right is fiscally responsible?

Not quite, but they claim that as their platform and they are in fact more fiscally responsible than the Left.

Their form of "fiscal responsibility" entails pork and benefits for the corporate elite as well as nonsensically high defense spending.

Abusing pork ought to be a criminally liable offense subject to ten years of imprisonment.
FREEDO
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11/5/2012 4:15:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:05:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:00:31 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Moderates tend to lean Libertarian, actually.

So where do Moderates differ from Libertarians? Because Libertarians are thought of as extreme and crazy for supporting freedom and free markets (see Ron Paul). Yet Moderates are not seen as extreme.

Where a Libertarian has conservative "economic views" and liberal "social views", a Moderate has a mix of each. This means it's a very diverse term.
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GeoLaureate8
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11/5/2012 4:20:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:14:18 PM, blameworthy wrote:
At 11/5/2012 3:59:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Not quite, but they claim that as their platform and they are in fact more fiscally responsible than the Left.

Their form of "fiscal responsibility" entails pork and benefits for the corporate elite as well as nonsensically high defense spending.

Abusing pork ought to be a criminally liable offense subject to ten years of imprisonment.

Obama took poor tax payer money and gave it to rich bankers to go take a vacation. Obama spent more on the military than Bush. Obama's defense budget cut was actually a spending increase disguised by future defense cuts that will never happen.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
imabench
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11/5/2012 4:23:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:05:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:00:31 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Moderates tend to lean Libertarian, actually.

So where do Moderates differ from Libertarians? Because Libertarians are thought of as extreme and crazy for supporting freedom and free markets (see Ron Paul). Yet Moderates are not seen as extreme.

Moderates are usually just watered-down versions of Libertarians, who also are very less fringe then true Libertarians are.
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GeoLaureate8
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11/5/2012 4:24:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:15:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:05:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So where do Moderates differ from Libertarians? Because Libertarians are thought of as extreme and crazy for supporting freedom and free markets (see Ron Paul). Yet Moderates are not seen as extreme.

Where a Libertarian has conservative "economic views" and liberal "social views", a Moderate has a mix of each. This means it's a very diverse term.

So what defines a Moderate? What is the common theme that Moderates agree on?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
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11/5/2012 4:26:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:24:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:15:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:05:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So where do Moderates differ from Libertarians? Because Libertarians are thought of as extreme and crazy for supporting freedom and free markets (see Ron Paul). Yet Moderates are not seen as extreme.

Where a Libertarian has conservative "economic views" and liberal "social views", a Moderate has a mix of each. This means it's a very diverse term.

So what defines a Moderate? What is the common theme that Moderates agree on?

None. Moderation isn't an ideology. It's a description.
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fnord
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/5/2012 4:42:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 3:48:39 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Libertarians and Moderates both claim to have aspects from both Left & Right.

Libertarians are more fiscally conservative than the Right and more socially free than the Left.

That is based on the Noland Chart, which states that the Right wing is in favor of economic freedom and the left wing is in favor of personal freedom. According to the Nolan Chart Conservatives for economic freedom and against personal freedom, Liberals are for personal freedom and against economic freedom, libertarians are for both economic and personal freedom, and authoritarians are against both economic and personal freedom. A moderate would be someone who are neither for nor against both freedoms.
The Nolan Chart is not based on historical fact, but rather David Nolan's own personal perception.
In reality the right are traditionalists, the left are reformists, authoritarians are collectivists, and libertarians are individualists.
So what is the Moderate? More socially restrictive than the Left and less fiscally responsible than the Right? Why would anyone pick Moderate over Libertarian? It sounds like the Moderate likes the status quo norm from both sides.

According to the Nolan chart, those who are nether for nor against Freedom in general.
According to real life, those who are neither for nor against both the status quo, and collectivism.
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blameworthy
Posts: 431
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11/5/2012 4:46:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:20:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:14:18 PM, blameworthy wrote:
At 11/5/2012 3:59:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Not quite, but they claim that as their platform and they are in fact more fiscally responsible than the Left.

Their form of "fiscal responsibility" entails pork and benefits for the corporate elite as well as nonsensically high defense spending.

Abusing pork ought to be a criminally liable offense subject to ten years of imprisonment.

Obama took poor tax payer money and gave it to rich bankers to go take a vacation. Obama spent more on the military than Bush. Obama's defense budget cut was actually a spending increase disguised by future defense cuts that will never happen.

I will concede that Obama has done all of these horrendous things. However, he also passed the NDAA, which will protect our nation from harm.
GeoLaureate8
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11/5/2012 4:53:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:46:58 PM, blameworthy wrote:
I will concede that Obama has done all of these horrendous things. However, he also passed the NDAA, which will protect our nation from harm.

Are you trolling or is this serious.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
blameworthy
Posts: 431
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11/5/2012 5:02:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:53:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:46:58 PM, blameworthy wrote:
I will concede that Obama has done all of these horrendous things. However, he also passed the NDAA, which will protect our nation from harm.

Are you trolling or is this serious.

I am not trolling. I am in support of the NDAA and the Patriot Act. I have no problem with the government regulating behavior. In fact, I am willing to support a DNA database of every citizen, felon and nonfelon. In addition to simplifying crime speed processing and reducing identity theft, it would cut down significantly on voter fraud and illegal immigration.
Contra
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11/5/2012 5:45:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 4:23:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:05:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/5/2012 4:00:31 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Moderates tend to lean Libertarian, actually.

So where do Moderates differ from Libertarians? Because Libertarians are thought of as extreme and crazy for supporting freedom and free markets (see Ron Paul). Yet Moderates are not seen as extreme.

Moderates are usually just watered-down versions of Libertarians, who also are very less fringe then true Libertarians are.

Libertarians, who believe in free markets and are socially liberal, are actually about 25% - 40% of the electorate, or agree with what I just said. Many people just don't know what the term is to describe their beliefs.
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OMGJustinBieber
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11/5/2012 10:28:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Nolan Chart is not based on historical fact, but rather David Nolan's own personal perception.
In reality the right are traditionalists, the left are reformists, authoritarians are collectivists, and libertarians are individualists.

With all due respect, are you serious?

The Nolan chart is David Nolan's personal perception while your political schema is not rooted in personal perception, but actually some mind-independent, utterly objective historical fact.

I do admire the confidence.