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imabench
Posts: 21,219
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11/11/2012 5:59:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://www.debate.org...

^ That should answer the question.

Now excuse me while I haul a** out of this thread where a flame war will surely occur.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/11/2012 6:20:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/11/2012 5:13:12 PM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
that George Walker Bush was a good or bad president? Please provide reason and proof behind your opinion.

Bad (shocker!)

1) Poor handling of foreign threats (engaging in unneeded wars, not targeting who needed to be targeted, using unverified information to get support).
2) Poor handling of the economy. He was given a bubble that popped literally as he stepped into office. However, the job loss was about 40% of what Obama was handed and by using tax cuts to address it (in 2001, 2003, and 2005) and it the job recovery was pathetic. It took 5 years to "recover" and the recovery was not an actual recovery, but just a massive bubble that would end up popping 2 years later.

We'll start with those.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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11/11/2012 6:26:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/11/2012 6:20:16 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/11/2012 5:13:12 PM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
that George Walker Bush was a good or bad president? Please provide reason and proof behind your opinion.

Bad (shocker!)

1) Poor handling of foreign threats (engaging in unneeded wars, not targeting who needed to be targeted, using unverified information to get support).
2) Poor handling of the economy. He was given a bubble that popped literally as he stepped into office. However, the job loss was about 40% of what Obama was handed and by using tax cuts to address it (in 2001, 2003, and 2005) and it the job recovery was pathetic. It took 5 years to "recover" and the recovery was not an actual recovery, but just a massive bubble that would end up popping 2 years later.

We'll start with those.

Im sure someone else will walk in here and bring up the Patriot Act and how it was Bush who started the bailouts.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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11/11/2012 6:28:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
SeniorIntelligentDebator
Posts: 53
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11/11/2012 6:58:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I, personally, think that George Walker Bush was one of our worst presidents. He incited an unreasonable war that took place for a year or two AFTER he exited office, about 7 years later. He poorly handled the 9/11 attacks. He created the Patriot Act which basically cancelled out everything in the Constitution. That's just a few of the misdeeds of Bush.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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11/12/2012 7:08:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/11/2012 6:58:00 PM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
I, personally, think that George Walker Bush was one of our worst presidents. He incited an unreasonable war that took place for a year or two AFTER he exited office, about 7 years later. He poorly handled the 9/11 attacks. He created the Patriot Act which basically cancelled out everything in the Constitution. That's just a few of the misdeeds of Bush.

Supposing Obama had lost re-election, and given that many of these things Obama extended/expanded, is it fair to say that Obama is as bad as Bush? I really don't see a whole heap of difference between the two regarding foreign policy, wars, spending, and the Constitution.
Obviously, Obama has another term to change course.
My work here is, finally, done.
SeniorIntelligentDebator
Posts: 53
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11/12/2012 9:19:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/12/2012 7:08:34 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/11/2012 6:58:00 PM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
I, personally, think that George Walker Bush was one of our worst presidents. He incited an unreasonable war that took place for a year or two AFTER he exited office, about 7 years later. He poorly handled the 9/11 attacks. He created the Patriot Act which basically cancelled out everything in the Constitution. That's just a few of the misdeeds of Bush.

Supposing Obama had lost re-election, and given that many of these things Obama extended/expanded, is it fair to say that Obama is as bad as Bush? I really don't see a whole heap of difference between the two regarding foreign policy, wars, spending, and the Constitution.
Obviously, Obama has another term to change course.

How can you compare Barack Obama, a democrat, to George W. Bush, a republican? Obama is at least attempting to obtain peace in the world. All Bush did was spark unreasonable wars. He didn't even end the wars he started. Obama had to end Bush's war. Not Bush. Please do not compare Bush to Obama. They are absolutely incomparable in all ways.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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11/12/2012 9:30:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/12/2012 9:19:48 AM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
At 11/12/2012 7:08:34 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/11/2012 6:58:00 PM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
I, personally, think that George Walker Bush was one of our worst presidents. He incited an unreasonable war that took place for a year or two AFTER he exited office, about 7 years later. He poorly handled the 9/11 attacks. He created the Patriot Act which basically cancelled out everything in the Constitution. That's just a few of the misdeeds of Bush.

Supposing Obama had lost re-election, and given that many of these things Obama extended/expanded, is it fair to say that Obama is as bad as Bush? I really don't see a whole heap of difference between the two regarding foreign policy, wars, spending, and the Constitution.
Obviously, Obama has another term to change course.

How can you compare Barack Obama, a democrat, to George W. Bush, a republican? Obama is at least attempting to obtain peace in the world. All Bush did was spark unreasonable wars. He didn't even end the wars he started. Obama had to end Bush's war. Not Bush. Please do not compare Bush to Obama. They are absolutely incomparable in all ways.

Poor guy, you think Obama did anything different from Bush? Obama extend the patriot act and signed the ndaa, which is worse than the patriot act.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
keepinitreal
Posts: 58
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11/12/2012 8:10:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
tried so hard to forget about bush and someone always brings him up. He's been gone for 4 years and it's amazing people want to talk about him. I think bush had more impact and influence on society than michael jackson did.

To be fair, historians will have to look at it objectively. Like all past presidents, there were good and bad policies (pros and cons) conducted by past presidents. Like that president who implemented the jim crow laws or that president who expanded slavery.

Lincoln was the one of the most hated person when he was president. North didn't like him because of his continual desire to war with the south. The south didn't like him for his anti-slavery policies. The republicans didn't like him for being too soft on slavery and also soft on the generals/criminals of the south after the war. The democrats didn't like him for being anti-slavery and federalizing a state issue. But now, he is listed as one of the greatest President of all time.

However, there are polls out there suggesting that Bush is one of the worst Presidents in post-war times. But like I said earlier, it's going to take time to analyze what he did (good and bad). You got to be unbiased when assessing stuff like this.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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11/12/2012 8:16:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/12/2012 8:10:40 PM, keepinitreal wrote:
tried so hard to forget about bush and someone always brings him up. He's been gone for 4 years and it's amazing people want to talk about him. I think bush had more impact and influence on society than michael jackson did.

To be fair, historians will have to look at it objectively. Like all past presidents, there were good and bad policies (pros and cons) conducted by past presidents. Like that president who implemented the jim crow laws or that president who expanded slavery.

Lincoln was the one of the most hated person when he was president. North didn't like him because of his continual desire to war with the south. The south didn't like him for his anti-slavery policies. The republicans didn't like him for being too soft on slavery and also soft on the generals/criminals of the south after the war. The democrats didn't like him for being anti-slavery and federalizing a state issue. But now, he is listed as one of the greatest President of all time.

This is a job for...
*takes off sunglasses*
DanT
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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11/12/2012 11:09:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/12/2012 9:19:48 AM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
At 11/12/2012 7:08:34 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/11/2012 6:58:00 PM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
I, personally, think that George Walker Bush was one of our worst presidents. He incited an unreasonable war that took place for a year or two AFTER he exited office, about 7 years later. He poorly handled the 9/11 attacks. He created the Patriot Act which basically cancelled out everything in the Constitution. That's just a few of the misdeeds of Bush.

Supposing Obama had lost re-election, and given that many of these things Obama extended/expanded, is it fair to say that Obama is as bad as Bush? I really don't see a whole heap of difference between the two regarding foreign policy, wars, spending, and the Constitution.
Obviously, Obama has another term to change course.

How can you compare Barack Obama, a democrat, to George W. Bush, a republican? Obama is at least attempting to obtain peace in the world. All Bush did was spark unreasonable wars. He didn't even end the wars he started. Obama had to end Bush's war. Not Bush. Please do not compare Bush to Obama. They are absolutely incomparable in all ways.

The evil Bush tax cuts: Obama extended.
The wars: Obama followed Bush's time table for Iraq, Obama escalated efforts in Afghanistan.
Habeus Corpus: Bush had Gitmo, Obama ran on closing it, has failed to do so. Also, Obama has killed American citizens abroad that were SUSPECTED of terrorism. At least Gitmo kept them alive until a tribunal years later.
Patriot Act: Obama extended it.
Stimulus: Bush had his checks, and the making work pay credit, Obama instead had his payroll tax holiday. All had roughly the same effect- Checks= $600/taxpayer, Credit= up to $400/taxpayer, phased out for the rich, Holiday= 2% of gross pay that was subject to FICA. Of all of these, the rich came out ahead under Obama.
Stimulus: Bush had TARP ($700 billion in loans), Obama gave billions in green energy subsidies and credits, the GM bailout, along with other stimulus spending.
Housing Bubble Burst: Bush had first-time homebuyer credit that was to be paid back, Obama's credit was free and clear.
Deficits: Both had horrible deficits, largely due to recessions and wars; however, Obama's grew faster.
Constitution Trashing: Bush had Patriot Act that lets warrantless wiretaps occur, while Obama signed the NDAA that allow indefinite detention of American citizens suspected of terrorism domestically. Also, Obamacare, IMO, is uncontitutional (individual mandate).

In all of these examples, Obama was as bad as Bush, if not worse. There may be certain aspects that Obama beats Bush in, but those are of little concern considering the major consequences of these listed actions.

In fact, I can't think of a single legitimate thing where Obama is better than Bush. Social issues, stage presence, and orator skills do not count, as they are not legitimate factors/roles of the federal government.
My work here is, finally, done.
SeniorIntelligentDebator
Posts: 53
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11/21/2012 1:11:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/12/2012 9:30:46 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/12/2012 9:19:48 AM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
At 11/12/2012 7:08:34 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/11/2012 6:58:00 PM, SeniorIntelligentDebator wrote:
I, personally, think that George Walker Bush was one of our worst presidents. He incited an unreasonable war that took place for a year or two AFTER he exited office, about 7 years later. He poorly handled the 9/11 attacks. He created the Patriot Act which basically cancelled out everything in the Constitution. That's just a few of the misdeeds of Bush.

Supposing Obama had lost re-election, and given that many of these things Obama extended/expanded, is it fair to say that Obama is as bad as Bush? I really don't see a whole heap of difference between the two regarding foreign policy, wars, spending, and the Constitution.
Obviously, Obama has another term to change course.

How can you compare Barack Obama, a democrat, to George W. Bush, a republican? Obama is at least attempting to obtain peace in the world. All Bush did was spark unreasonable wars. He didn't even end the wars he started. Obama had to end Bush's war. Not Bush. Please do not compare Bush to Obama. They are absolutely incomparable in all ways.

Poor guy, you think Obama did anything different from Bush? Obama extend the patriot act and signed the ndaa, which is worse than the patriot act.

http://www.politifact.com...
SeniorIntelligentDebator
Posts: 53
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11/21/2012 1:16:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/12/2012 8:10:40 PM, keepinitreal wrote:
tried so hard to forget about bush and someone always brings him up. He's been gone for 4 years and it's amazing people want to talk about him. I think bush had more impact and influence on society than michael jackson did.

I give blame where blame is worthy.
To be fair, historians will have to look at it objectively. Like all past presidents, there were good and bad policies (pros and cons) conducted by past presidents. Like that president who implemented the jim crow laws or that president who expanded slavery.

Are you attempting to pardon Bush for his atrocities?
Lincoln was the one of the most hated person when he was president. North didn't like him because of his continual desire to war with the south. The south didn't like him for his anti-slavery policies. The republicans didn't like him for being too soft on slavery and also soft on the generals/criminals of the south after the war. The democrats didn't like him for being anti-slavery and federalizing a state issue. But now, he is listed as one of the greatest President of all time.

It is a retrospect. We looked back and saw, like you mentioned before, the "pros and cons." Yes, Lincoln caused damage, and yes, perhaps he was well-hated back then; but now, people came to their senses and realized Lincoln was one of the greatest presidents of all time.
However, there are polls out there suggesting that Bush is one of the worst Presidents in post-war times. But like I said earlier, it's going to take time to analyze what he did (good and bad). You got to be unbiased when assessing stuff like this.
Unbiased? How can I be unbiased when millions of people were killed overseas in Iraq and Iran because of Bush's prolonged war efforts? Is there really anything sensibly peaceful about inciting war with another nation just because of a suspicion? Would I be allowed to decapitate a man I *thought* was guilty of a crime?
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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11/21/2012 3:01:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/12/2012 8:10:40 PM, keepinitreal wrote:
tried so hard to forget about bush and someone always brings him up. He's been gone for 4 years and it's amazing people want to talk about him. I think bush had more impact and influence on society than michael jackson did.

To be fair, historians will have to look at it objectively. Like all past presidents, there were good and bad policies (pros and cons) conducted by past presidents. Like that president who implemented the jim crow laws or that president who expanded slavery.

Lincoln was the one of the most hated person when he was president. North didn't like him because of his continual desire to war with the south. The south didn't like him for his anti-slavery policies. The republicans didn't like him for being too soft on slavery and also soft on the generals/criminals of the south after the war. The democrats didn't like him for being anti-slavery and federalizing a state issue. But now, he is listed as one of the greatest President of all time.

However, there are polls out there suggesting that Bush is one of the worst Presidents in post-war times. But like I said earlier, it's going to take time to analyze what he did (good and bad). You got to be unbiased when assessing stuff like this.

It's completely subjective, it really all comes down to how you choose to measure success, for instance, based on the ability to defeat zombies, Lincoln was the best President.

Of course, GW Bush was a zombie, so that measure of success wouldn't apply to him.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater