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Petition to Eliminate Minimum wage laws

DanT
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11/13/2012 6:50:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Minimum wage laws do not increase wages, it simply prohibits consenting parties from forming a contract. One's wage depends on their KSAs (knowledge, skills, & abilities). The value of an employee depends on their KSAs. If certain KSAs are in high demand for the field in question, than the individual becomes more valuable to the company; if certain KSAs are relevant to field but are in low supply, than it can give the individual a competitive edge. If an individual's KSAs are lacking, their value to the company may fall below that of the minimum wage. In such cases, they would be unable to find employment, because they would be a liability rather than an asset. Minimum wage laws make it harder to enter the workforce, or to gain work experience. They only serve to raise the job requirements

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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11/13/2012 7:10:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 6:50:07 AM, DanT wrote:
Minimum wage laws do not increase wages, it simply prohibits consenting parties from forming a contract. One's wage depends on their KSAs (knowledge, skills, & abilities). The value of an employee depends on their KSAs. If certain KSAs are in high demand for the field in question, than the individual becomes more valuable to the company; if certain KSAs are relevant to field but are in low supply, than it can give the individual a competitive edge. If an individual's KSAs are lacking, their value to the company may fall below that of the minimum wage. In such cases, they would be unable to find employment, because they would be a liability rather than an asset. Minimum wage laws make it harder to enter the workforce, or to gain work experience. They only serve to raise the job requirements


https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...

Signed.
Wall of Fail

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slo1
Posts: 4,362
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11/13/2012 9:03:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This such a non starter. When one looks at the minimum wage in real terms it is not even close to the levels from 60's to early 80's. It is not keeping pace with inflation or productivity, which means the drag keeps getting less and less. Lot bigger fish to fry, such as reforming education.
DanT
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11/13/2012 2:08:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 9:03:33 AM, slo1 wrote:
This such a non starter. When one looks at the minimum wage in real terms it is not even close to the levels from 60's to early 80's. It is not keeping pace with inflation or productivity, which means the drag keeps getting less and less. Lot bigger fish to fry, such as reforming education.

In 1960 minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996 dollars. In 2010 when the current minimum wage changed from $6.55 to $7.25, minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996. So actually it is the same. Simply because Obama chose to inflate the dollar so that $7.25 in 2012 dollars is worth $6.83 in 2010 dollars, does not mean we need to raise minimum wage. It means we need to stop run away inflation.

http://www.infoplease.com...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Ron-Paul
Posts: 2,557
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11/13/2012 3:08:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 7:10:16 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 11/13/2012 6:50:07 AM, DanT wrote:
Minimum wage laws do not increase wages, it simply prohibits consenting parties from forming a contract. One's wage depends on their KSAs (knowledge, skills, & abilities). The value of an employee depends on their KSAs. If certain KSAs are in high demand for the field in question, than the individual becomes more valuable to the company; if certain KSAs are relevant to field but are in low supply, than it can give the individual a competitive edge. If an individual's KSAs are lacking, their value to the company may fall below that of the minimum wage. In such cases, they would be unable to find employment, because they would be a liability rather than an asset. Minimum wage laws make it harder to enter the workforce, or to gain work experience. They only serve to raise the job requirements


https://petitions.whitehouse.gov...

Signed.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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11/13/2012 3:09:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Good luck, but I doubt that this'll work out.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
FREEDO
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11/13/2012 3:50:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Couple the minimum wage with a full employment program. Raise the minimum wage to $20 and the program's wage to $10.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/13/2012 4:02:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 3:50:46 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Couple the minimum wage with a full employment program. Raise the minimum wage to $20 and the program's wage to $10.

Are you joking right now? You know that a wage of $20 an hour is pretty good salary, for a college graduate, never mind some high school dropout looking for an entry level job.
Open borders debate:
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DanT
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11/13/2012 4:05:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 4:02:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 3:50:46 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Couple the minimum wage with a full employment program. Raise the minimum wage to $20 and the program's wage to $10.

Are you joking right now? You know that a wage of $20 an hour is pretty good salary, for a college graduate, never mind some high school dropout looking for an entry level job.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! Minimum wage does not increase wages, it increases the requirements needed to get hired.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
slo1
Posts: 4,362
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11/13/2012 5:06:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 2:08:07 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:03:33 AM, slo1 wrote:
This such a non starter. When one looks at the minimum wage in real terms it is not even close to the levels from 60's to early 80's. It is not keeping pace with inflation or productivity, which means the drag keeps getting less and less. Lot bigger fish to fry, such as reforming education.

In 1960 minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996 dollars. In 2010 when the current minimum wage changed from $6.55 to $7.25, minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996. So actually it is the same. Simply because Obama chose to inflate the dollar so that $7.25 in 2012 dollars is worth $6.83 in 2010 dollars, does not mean we need to raise minimum wage. It means we need to stop run away inflation.

http://www.infoplease.com...

You are not reading the chart you posted right.

Your chart uses 1996 as the base line for the value of the dollar. In terms of 1996 dollars the minimum wage is as follows.
1963 = $6.41
1968 = $7.21
1974 = $6.37
Since 1984 it has not been over $5.00 except 3 times.

Like I said a non-starter. There are just not many jobs where the market rate to fill labor is below today's minimum wage.
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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11/13/2012 5:24:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If anybody needs me ill be over in the "online petitions like these never ever ever ever ever actually get taken seriously and thus its a completely useless effort" corner.
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FREEDO
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11/13/2012 5:27:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 4:02:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 3:50:46 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Couple the minimum wage with a full employment program. Raise the minimum wage to $20 and the program's wage to $10.

Are you joking right now? You know that a wage of $20 an hour is pretty good salary, for a college graduate, never mind some high school dropout looking for an entry level job.

The minimum wage in England is equal to about $18 and equal to about $21 in Denmark.

I would also be in favor of increasing the minimum wage for those with degrees.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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11/13/2012 5:27:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 4:05:34 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 4:02:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 3:50:46 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Couple the minimum wage with a full employment program. Raise the minimum wage to $20 and the program's wage to $10.

Are you joking right now? You know that a wage of $20 an hour is pretty good salary, for a college graduate, never mind some high school dropout looking for an entry level job.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! Minimum wage does not increase wages, it increases the requirements needed to get hired.

I'm guessing you completely missed the part that wasn't bolded.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/13/2012 6:07:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 5:06:04 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 2:08:07 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:03:33 AM, slo1 wrote:
This such a non starter. When one looks at the minimum wage in real terms it is not even close to the levels from 60's to early 80's. It is not keeping pace with inflation or productivity, which means the drag keeps getting less and less. Lot bigger fish to fry, such as reforming education.

In 1960 minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996 dollars. In 2010 when the current minimum wage changed from $6.55 to $7.25, minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996. So actually it is the same. Simply because Obama chose to inflate the dollar so that $7.25 in 2012 dollars is worth $6.83 in 2010 dollars, does not mean we need to raise minimum wage. It means we need to stop run away inflation.

http://www.infoplease.com...

You are not reading the chart you posted right.

Your chart uses 1996 as the base line for the value of the dollar. In terms of 1996 dollars the minimum wage is as follows.
1963 = $6.41
1968 = $7.21
1974 = $6.37
Since 1984 it has not been over $5.00 except 3 times.

Like I said a non-starter. There are just not many jobs where the market rate to fill labor is below today's minimum wage.

Yes I read it. Did you?
In 1955 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1956-1984 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1985-1996 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
In 1997 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1998-2008 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
From 2009-2011 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
In 2012 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars

That is 4 times since 1985 (the arbitrary number you chose as a reference point), not 3 times. And over the last 57 years (the whole chart) it was over $5 33 times (58% of the time).

I am quite perplexed as to why you arbitrary chose $5 as a reference point, or 1984 for that matter?

Since the chart began in 1955, with a minimum wage of $4.39 in 1996 dollars, wouldn't the objective reference point be 1955 with a wage of $4.39?

Of course if we used that as a reference, than minimum wage would only fall below $4.39, 5 times since 1955.
1989 (after minimum wage was raised in 1990, we saw a recession)
1995
2004-2006 (after minimum wage was raised in 2007 we started losing jobs)
The raise in minimum wage in 2007 contributed to the late 2000 recession.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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11/13/2012 7:11:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Minimum wages are actually an interesting issue, one that I gave changed opinions on. I signed the petition regardless as I know it won't get anywhere, and it would be interesting if it did (good time to study its effect).

I recently am in favor of the minimum wage due to recent academic studies. For example, increases in the minimum wage correlates with more consumer spending and higher wages. Assuming the minimum wage increases one dollar, the economy would grow by 60 billion dollars (Daniel Aaronson, Sumit Agarwal, and Eric French 2007; Kai Filion 2009). Cross sectional studies also make interesting conclusions. For example, states with higher minimum wages then the federal have faster job growth then those with lower (or even) minimum wages to those with the federal level (Fiscal Policy Institute 2006). As Fillon 2009 notes, the correlation holds true even in times of recession. Living wages also decrease employee turnover, saving the employer on training costs (Michael Reich, Peter Hall, Ken Jacobs 2003).

Other studies show other benefits. For example, a decrease of those receiving welfare has been shown to occur. Studies finding welfare increases generally fail to control for local market conditions. A 50% increase in the minimum wage leads to a 1.3% decrease in welfare participation (Turner 1999).

If you have coubter evidence, please refute the growing body of evidence in favor of minimum wage laws.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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11/13/2012 7:12:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 7:11:16 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Minimum wages are actually an interesting issue, one that I have changed opinions on. I signed the petition regardless as I know it won't get anywhere, and it would be interesting if it did (good time to study its effect).

I recently am in favor of the minimum wage due to recent academic studies. For example, increases in the minimum wage correlates with more consumer spending and higher wages. Assuming the minimum wage increases one dollar, the economy would grow by 60 billion dollars (Daniel Aaronson, Sumit Agarwal, and Eric French 2007; Kai Filion 2009). Cross sectional studies also make interesting conclusions. For example, states with higher minimum wages then the federal have faster job growth then those with lower (or even) minimum wages to those with the federal level (Fiscal Policy Institute 2006). As Fillon 2009 notes, the correlation holds true even in times of recession. Living wages also decrease employee turnover, saving the employer on training costs (Michael Reich, Peter Hall, Ken Jacobs 2003).

Other studies show other benefits. For example, a decrease of those receiving welfare has been shown to occur. Studies finding welfare increases generally fail to control for local market conditions. A 50% increase in the minimum wage leads to a 1.3% decrease in welfare participation (Turner 1999).

If you have counter evidence, please refute the growing body of evidence in favor of minimum wage laws.

I fixed a few typos; I'm on a phone, so it's hard to type accurately.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
DanT
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11/13/2012 7:23:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 7:11:16 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Minimum wages are actually an interesting issue, one that I gave changed opinions on. I signed the petition regardless as I know it won't get anywhere, and it would be interesting if it did (good time to study its effect).

I recently am in favor of the minimum wage due to recent academic studies. For example, increases in the minimum wage correlates with more consumer spending and higher wages. Assuming the minimum wage increases one dollar, the economy would grow by 60 billion dollars (Daniel Aaronson, Sumit Agarwal, and Eric French 2007; Kai Filion 2009). Cross sectional studies also make interesting conclusions. For example, states with higher minimum wages then the federal have faster job growth then those with lower (or even) minimum wages to those with the federal level (Fiscal Policy Institute 2006). As Fillon 2009 notes, the correlation holds true even in times of recession. Living wages also decrease employee turnover, saving the employer on training costs (Michael Reich, Peter Hall, Ken Jacobs 2003).

Other studies show other benefits. For example, a decrease of those receiving welfare has been shown to occur. Studies finding welfare increases generally fail to control for local market conditions. A 50% increase in the minimum wage leads to a 1.3% decrease in welfare participation (Turner 1999).

If you have coubter evidence, please refute the growing body of evidence in favor of minimum wage laws.

can you please provide a link to those studies. Not a blog, I want a link to the actual study so I can read it. They sound like bogus assertions, and I would like to see the actual study to better understand it. Also correlation does not equal causation.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
16kadams
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11/13/2012 7:27:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 7:23:02 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:11:16 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Minimum wages are actually an interesting issue, one that I gave changed opinions on. I signed the petition regardless as I know it won't get anywhere, and it would be interesting if it did (good time to study its effect).

I recently am in favor of the minimum wage due to recent academic studies. For example, increases in the minimum wage correlates with more consumer spending and higher wages. Assuming the minimum wage increases one dollar, the economy would grow by 60 billion dollars (Daniel Aaronson, Sumit Agarwal, and Eric French 2007; Kai Filion 2009). Cross sectional studies also make interesting conclusions. For example, states with higher minimum wages then the federal have faster job growth then those with lower (or even) minimum wages to those with the federal level (Fiscal Policy Institute 2006). As Fillon 2009 notes, the correlation holds true even in times of recession. Living wages also decrease employee turnover, saving the employer on training costs (Michael Reich, Peter Hall, Ken Jacobs 2003).

Other studies show other benefits. For example, a decrease of those receiving welfare has been shown to occur. Studies finding welfare increases generally fail to control for local market conditions. A 50% increase in the minimum wage leads to a 1.3% decrease in welfare participation (Turner 1999).

If you have coubter evidence, please refute the growing body of evidence in favor of minimum wage laws.

can you please provide a link to those studies. Not a blog, I want a link to the actual study so I can read it. They sound like bogus assertions, and I would like to see the actual study to better understand it. Also correlation does not equal causation.

Sure.

PDF http://www.chicagofed.org...
PDF http://www.epi.org...
PDF http://www.fiscalpolicy.org...
PDF http://www.irle.berkeley.edu...
PDF http://www.ipr.northwestern.edu...

I think that's all of what I cited.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
twocupcakes
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11/13/2012 7:30:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Minimum wages gives employees more money to spend and they spend more, which is good for businesses and employees. Also, it avoids exploiting people.
johnnyboy54
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11/13/2012 7:57:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 7:30:32 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Minimum wages gives employees more money to spend and they spend more, which is good for businesses and employees.

Not necessarily. If they have more spending money, but the bill causes prices to increase by a similar or greater amount than the new wages, then the effect is negligible.

Businesses pass costs of production onto consumers. Increasing wages will simply increase the cost of production.

Also, it avoids exploiting people.

How is it exploitation when a person agrees to the wage being paid for the services rendered? People can voluntarily sell their own time and labor for whatever price they can get, much like a commodity being sold.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
darkkermit
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11/13/2012 8:00:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 7:57:42 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:30:32 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Minimum wages gives employees more money to spend and they spend more, which is good for businesses and employees.

Not necessarily. If they have more spending money, but the bill causes prices to increase by a similar or greater amount than the new wages, then the effect is negligible.

Businesses pass costs of production onto consumers. Increasing wages will simply increase the cost of production.

Depends what the economic conditions are. In the long run, it will cause prices to increase, but in the short run prices are sticky (resilient to change) if there is a recession.

Also, it avoids exploiting people.

How is it exploitation when a person agrees to the wage being paid for the services rendered? People can voluntarily sell their own time and labor for whatever price they can get, much like a commodity being sold.
Open borders debate:
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johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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11/13/2012 8:06:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 8:00:24 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:57:42 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:30:32 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Minimum wages gives employees more money to spend and they spend more, which is good for businesses and employees.

Not necessarily. If they have more spending money, but the bill causes prices to increase by a similar or greater amount than the new wages, then the effect is negligible.

Businesses pass costs of production onto consumers. Increasing wages will simply increase the cost of production.

Depends what the economic conditions are. In the long run, it will cause prices to increase, but in the short run prices are sticky (resilient to change) if there is a recession.

True. But then there is another effect. Since wages costs are going up and the prices are sticky in the short run, then it would negatively affect income. Unless the increase in wages could increase spending in the short term that much, but I doubt it has much of an effect.


Also, it avoids exploiting people.

How is it exploitation when a person agrees to the wage being paid for the services rendered? People can voluntarily sell their own time and labor for whatever price they can get, much like a commodity being sold.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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11/13/2012 8:08:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Boo Minimum Wage Gary Johnson 2012 Libertarianism Down with Obamney Ron Paul Marijuana Free Trade The State is Bad Libertarianism is the Way Rand Paul John Stossl Johnson Gray 2016

that is all.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/13/2012 8:16:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 8:06:15 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 8:00:24 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:57:42 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:30:32 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Minimum wages gives employees more money to spend and they spend more, which is good for businesses and employees.

Not necessarily. If they have more spending money, but the bill causes prices to increase by a similar or greater amount than the new wages, then the effect is negligible.

Businesses pass costs of production onto consumers. Increasing wages will simply increase the cost of production.

Depends what the economic conditions are. In the long run, it will cause prices to increase, but in the short run prices are sticky (resilient to change) if there is a recession.

True. But then there is another effect. Since wages costs are going up and the prices are sticky in the short run, then it would negatively affect income. Unless the increase in wages could increase spending in the short term that much, but I doubt it has much of an effect.

How would it negatively affect income? The minimum wage is causing wages to increase.

The minimum wage could increase spending, since money is going to poorer people, who have a lower marginal prosperity to consume. They're more likely to spend the money, thus boasting the economy.



Also, it avoids exploiting people.

How is it exploitation when a person agrees to the wage being paid for the services rendered? People can voluntarily sell their own time and labor for whatever price they can get, much like a commodity being sold.
Open borders debate:
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johnnyboy54
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11/13/2012 8:52:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 8:16:40 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 8:06:15 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 8:00:24 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:57:42 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:30:32 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Minimum wages gives employees more money to spend and they spend more, which is good for businesses and employees.

Not necessarily. If they have more spending money, but the bill causes prices to increase by a similar or greater amount than the new wages, then the effect is negligible.

Businesses pass costs of production onto consumers. Increasing wages will simply increase the cost of production.

Depends what the economic conditions are. In the long run, it will cause prices to increase, but in the short run prices are sticky (resilient to change) if there is a recession.

True. But then there is another effect. Since wages costs are going up and the prices are sticky in the short run, then it would negatively affect income. Unless the increase in wages could increase spending in the short term that much, but I doubt it has much of an effect.

How would it negatively affect income? The minimum wage is causing wages to increase.

Profits would have been a better word. I was talking from a business perspective.

The minimum wage could increase spending, since money is going to poorer people, who have a lower marginal prosperity to consume. They're more likely to spend the money, thus boasting the economy.

Judging from statistics from the Department of Labor, it seems like it would not increase spending that much. 3.8 million workers make mininum wage, with 2.2 making less than minimum. These people tend to be servers, who would likely make more than the federal hourly minimum when tips are factored in, including tip income which in not reported.

Also, most of the people who have these jobs tend to be either young or part time workers. While I can't find a statistics that shows how much they spend, I can't imagine it being that much.

Also, many business that hire minimum tend to cut hours or fire minimum wage workers altogether when minimum wages increase so they can earn the same amount of profit. This would also lessen, if not eliminate the impact.

http://www.bls.gov...
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/13/2012 9:07:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 8:52:14 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 8:16:40 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 8:06:15 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 8:00:24 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:57:42 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 7:30:32 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Minimum wages gives employees more money to spend and they spend more, which is good for businesses and employees.

Not necessarily. If they have more spending money, but the bill causes prices to increase by a similar or greater amount than the new wages, then the effect is negligible.

Businesses pass costs of production onto consumers. Increasing wages will simply increase the cost of production.

Depends what the economic conditions are. In the long run, it will cause prices to increase, but in the short run prices are sticky (resilient to change) if there is a recession.

True. But then there is another effect. Since wages costs are going up and the prices are sticky in the short run, then it would negatively affect income. Unless the increase in wages could increase spending in the short term that much, but I doubt it has much of an effect.

How would it negatively affect income? The minimum wage is causing wages to increase.

Profits would have been a better word. I was talking from a business perspective.

Yes, it would effect profits. However many corporations make a ton of profits plus it could be balanced through the increase in spending that occurs with people making more money.


The minimum wage could increase spending, since money is going to poorer people, who have a lower marginal prosperity to consume. They're more likely to spend the money, thus boasting the economy.

Judging from statistics from the Department of Labor, it seems like it would not increase spending that much. 3.8 million workers make mininum wage, with 2.2 making less than minimum. These people tend to be servers, who would likely make more than the federal hourly minimum when tips are factored in, including tip income which in not reported.

Also, most of the people who have these jobs tend to be either young or part time workers. While I can't find a statistics that shows how much they spend, I can't imagine it being that much.

Also, many business that hire minimum tend to cut hours or fire minimum wage workers altogether when minimum wages increase so they can earn the same amount of profit. This would also lessen, if not eliminate the impact.

http://www.bls.gov...

I was really judging theoretical and was just playing devil's advocate. It depends on how much you raise minimum wage to see whose effected. Maybe only a few are actually on minimum wage, but there's probably a lot more working only pennies more then minimum wage.

Also, in terms of firing workers, I don't think that's necessarily the case because for most places, the marginal productivity of workers increases dramatically and then decreases dramatically as well. For example, retail stores only hire enough workers so that they can restock shelves and ring people out. Perhaps If you have a little bit more workers, the extra workers could be used to help out customers or make the lines shorter. But overall, the effect of adding new workers after a certain point isn't worth it. Instead, the more likely alternative is that businesses that can't afford the minimum wage will go bankrupt.
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slo1
Posts: 4,362
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11/13/2012 9:26:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 6:07:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 5:06:04 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 2:08:07 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:03:33 AM, slo1 wrote:
This such a non starter. When one looks at the minimum wage in real terms it is not even close to the levels from 60's to early 80's. It is not keeping pace with inflation or productivity, which means the drag keeps getting less and less. Lot bigger fish to fry, such as reforming education.

In 1960 minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996 dollars. In 2010 when the current minimum wage changed from $6.55 to $7.25, minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996. So actually it is the same. Simply because Obama chose to inflate the dollar so that $7.25 in 2012 dollars is worth $6.83 in 2010 dollars, does not mean we need to raise minimum wage. It means we need to stop run away inflation.

http://www.infoplease.com...

You are not reading the chart you posted right.

Your chart uses 1996 as the base line for the value of the dollar. In terms of 1996 dollars the minimum wage is as follows.
1963 = $6.41
1968 = $7.21
1974 = $6.37
Since 1984 it has not been over $5.00 except 3 times.

Like I said a non-starter. There are just not many jobs where the market rate to fill labor is below today's minimum wage.

Yes I read it. Did you?
In 1955 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1956-1984 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1985-1996 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
In 1997 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1998-2008 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
From 2009-2011 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
In 2012 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars

That is 4 times since 1985 (the arbitrary number you chose as a reference point), not 3 times. And over the last 57 years (the whole chart) it was over $5 33 times (58% of the time).

I am quite perplexed as to why you arbitrary chose $5 as a reference point, or 1984 for that matter?

Since the chart began in 1955, with a minimum wage of $4.39 in 1996 dollars, wouldn't the objective reference point be 1955 with a wage of $4.39?

Of course if we used that as a reference, than minimum wage would only fall below $4.39, 5 times since 1955.
1989 (after minimum wage was raised in 1990, we saw a recession)
1995
2004-2006 (after minimum wage was raised in 2007 we started losing jobs)
The raise in minimum wage in 2007 contributed to the late 2000 recession.

You still don't see the trend? Let me put it this way. From 1952 when the data starts to 1982 the average min wage = $6.03. From 1982 to present it averages $4.70. It is quite simple in that you are picking a fight where there is no fight needed. The minimum wage is currently at a level extremely historically low. Even with an increase it would still be historically low.

Only 3.8 million people work at minimum wage or lower. http://www.bls.gov...

These are jobs are are slowly but surely being automated because they don't require much skill. What I am saying is that you are going after a small fish here when there are much bigger fish to fry.

PS. The 70 cent increase of the Fed min wage from $5.15 to $5.85 from 2006 to 2007 was so small compared to the credit cycle bust that caused the global financial crisis and greatest recession since the great depression. So small that it is absurd to even throw it in the pot of causal factors.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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11/13/2012 11:47:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 9:26:18 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 6:07:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 5:06:04 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 2:08:07 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:03:33 AM, slo1 wrote:
This such a non starter. When one looks at the minimum wage in real terms it is not even close to the levels from 60's to early 80's. It is not keeping pace
with inflation or productivity, which means the drag keeps getting less and less. Lot bigger fish to fry, such as reforming education.

In 1960 minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996 dollars. In 2010 when the current minimum wage changed from $6.55 to $7.25, minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996. So actually it is the same. Simply because Obama chose to inflate the dollar so that $7.25 in 2012 dollars is worth $6.83 in 2010 dollars, does not mean we need to raise minimum wage. It means we need to stop run away inflation.

http://www.infoplease.com...

You are not reading the chart you posted right.

Your chart uses 1996 as the base line for the value of the dollar. In terms of 1996 dollars the minimum wage is as follows.
1963 = $6.41
1968 = $7.21
1974 = $6.37
Since 1984 it has not been over $5.00 except 3 times.

Like I said a non-starter. There are just not many jobs where the market rate to fill labor is below today's minimum wage.

Yes I read it. Did you?
In 1955 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1956-1984 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1985-1996 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
In 1997 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1998-2008 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
From 2009-2011 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
In 2012 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars

That is 4 times since 1985 (the arbitrary number you chose as a reference point), not 3 times. And over the last 57 years (the whole chart) it was over $5 33 times (58% of the time).

I am quite perplexed as to why you arbitrary chose $5 as a reference point, or 1984 for that matter?

Since the chart began in 1955, with a minimum wage of $4.39 in 1996 dollars, wouldn't the objective reference point be 1955 with a wage of $4.39?

Of course if we used that as a reference, than minimum wage would only fall below $4.39, 5 times since 1955.
1989 (after minimum wage was raised in 1990, we saw a recession)
1995
2004-2006 (after minimum wage was raised in 2007 we started losing jobs)
The raise in minimum wage in 2007 contributed to the late 2000 recession.

You still don't see the trend? Let me put it this way. From 1952 when the data starts to 1982 the average min wage = $6.03. From 1982 to present it averages $4.70. It is quite simple in that you are picking a fight where there is no fight needed. The minimum wage is currently at a level extremely historically low. Even with an increase it would still be historically low.

Only 3.8 million people work at minimum wage or lower. http://www.bls.gov...

These are jobs are are slowly but surely being automated because they don't require much skill. What I am saying is that you are going after a small fish here when there are much bigger fish to fry.

PS. The 70 cent increase of the Fed min wage from $5.15 to $5.85 from 2006 to 2007 was so small compared to the credit cycle bust that caused the global financial crisis and greatest recession since the great depression. So small that it is absurd to even throw it in the pot of causal factors.

FUN FACTS!!
In 2011, 3.04% of all employees make minimum wage. Of those, 27.7% have less than a high school diploma, and 53.2% are less than 25 years of age (29.3% under 20).
I assume most, if not all, of the people paid below minimum wage are tipped employees (2.2 million of 3.8 million), and to my knowledge, that means there is a tip credit, so pay is less than minimum wage (and tips/commissions are not included in these figures) unless tips/commissions are too low.

In 2009, the year it increased from $6.55 to $7.25, min. wage workers represented 2.89%.
In 2007, the first year in many the wage went up from $5.15 to $5.85, min. wage workers represented 1.31% of the labor force.

Raising minimum wage only increases the number of people on it, as those that were making more (between previous min wage and the new one) do not get a raise beyond the new min wage; it hurts those people the most
My work here is, finally, done.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/14/2012 2:34:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 9:26:18 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 6:07:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 5:06:04 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/13/2012 2:08:07 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:03:33 AM, slo1 wrote:
This such a non starter. When one looks at the minimum wage in real terms it is not even close to the levels from 60's to early 80's. It is not keeping pace with inflation or productivity, which means the drag keeps getting less and less. Lot bigger fish to fry, such as reforming education.

In 1960 minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996 dollars. In 2010 when the current minimum wage changed from $6.55 to $7.25, minimum wage was $5.30 in 1996. So actually it is the same. Simply because Obama chose to inflate the dollar so that $7.25 in 2012 dollars is worth $6.83 in 2010 dollars, does not mean we need to raise minimum wage. It means we need to stop run away inflation.

http://www.infoplease.com...

You are not reading the chart you posted right.

Your chart uses 1996 as the base line for the value of the dollar. In terms of 1996 dollars the minimum wage is as follows.
1963 = $6.41
1968 = $7.21
1974 = $6.37
Since 1984 it has not been over $5.00 except 3 times.

Like I said a non-starter. There are just not many jobs where the market rate to fill labor is below today's minimum wage.

Yes I read it. Did you?
In 1955 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1956-1984 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1985-1996 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
In 1997 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
From 1998-2008 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars
From 2009-2011 minimum wage was over $5 in 1996 dollars
In 2012 minimum wage was below $5 in 1996 dollars

That is 4 times since 1985 (the arbitrary number you chose as a reference point), not 3 times. And over the last 57 years (the whole chart) it was over $5 33 times (58% of the time).

I am quite perplexed as to why you arbitrary chose $5 as a reference point, or 1984 for that matter?

Since the chart began in 1955, with a minimum wage of $4.39 in 1996 dollars, wouldn't the objective reference point be 1955 with a wage of $4.39?

Of course if we used that as a reference, than minimum wage would only fall below $4.39, 5 times since 1955.
1989 (after minimum wage was raised in 1990, we saw a recession)
1995
2004-2006 (after minimum wage was raised in 2007 we started losing jobs)
The raise in minimum wage in 2007 contributed to the late 2000 recession.

You still don't see the trend? Let me put it this way. From 1952 when the data starts to 1982 the average min wage = $6.03.

Again your math is wrong. First off the data starts in 1955. Furthermore the mean is $5.34. The mean min wage since 1984 (your arbitrary reference point) is $4.68. The mode (most common wage) since 1955 is $4.39, while the mode since 1984 is $5.06. The median (middle wage) since 1955 is $5.25, and the median since 1984 is $4.69. The current wage is $4.97 in 1996 dollars, which is not low, but rather average.

In 2006 it was $4.04, and after the minimum wage was raised in May of 2007, than the recession hit in December of 2007. It continued to raise, due to inflation, until 2009, when the recession finally ended. A good point to be at would be $4.04 in 1996 dollars. Or at least $4.38 in 1996 dollars.

From 1982 to present it averages $4.70.

$4.68.... Go back to grade school.

It is quite simple in that you are picking a fight where there is no fight needed. The minimum wage is currently at a level extremely historically low.

BS

Even with an increase it would still be historically low.

BS
Only 3.8 million people work at minimum wage or lower. http://www.bls.gov...

But minimum wage effects higher wages. If minimum wage is $7 an hour and more senior employees are earning $8 an hour, and min wage was raised to $8 per hour, the $8 an hour would raise to $9 an hour. It has a domino effect. Older employees who previously earned raises would end up working for the same wages as entry level jobs. Minimum wage thus effects the higher wages as well. If you increase the wage and thus the KSA requirements for entry level jobs, you increase the wage and KSA requirements of jobs higher up on the ladder. If min wage is what managers use to earn, you would need to have the KSAs of previous managers in order to obtain an entry level job,and new managers would require an even higher standard of KSAs.

These are jobs are are slowly but surely being automated because they don't require much skill. What I am saying is that you are going after a small fish here when there are much bigger fish to fry.

You opinion based on your bad math skills... try using a calculator, or maybe Microsoft excel.
PS. The 70 cent increase of the Fed min wage from $5.15 to $5.85 from 2006 to 2007 was so small compared to the credit cycle bust that caused the global financial crisis and greatest recession since the great depression. So small that it is absurd to even throw it in the pot of causal factors.

It adds up.
134,379,000 employed x $0.70 = $94,065,300
$94,065,300 / $5.85 min wage = 16,079,538.46 jobs lost
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle