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Why We Should Support the Palestinians

charleslb
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11/21/2012 9:49:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, firstly, it should be an accepted truism among all fair-minded triers of fact in the court of international public opinion, and the resounding verdict of the self-described "civilized nations", that the state of Israel is of course historically and ongoingly quite outrageously guilty of subjecting Palestinian Arabs to repression, aggression, and to the original transgression of dispossessing and displacing them from their homeland. That is, Israel has created the fundamental and underlying grievances, provocations, and situations that give rise to a violent response from its victims, which it labels terrorism and latches onto as a self-justifying pretext to militarily pounce upon an already quite pinned-to-the-mat and dominated foe.

Alas, as current events horribly prove, Israel persists in this MO, persists in its warlike ways and in applying the benighted sort of thinking that has caused so much bloodshed in the modern Middle East. Israel's leadership has yet to learn the wisdom contained in the slogan No justice, no peace. Instead of redressing the wrongs inflicted upon the Palestinians and its other Arab neighbors, with justice, compassion, and magnanimity, it continues to seek to maintain a position of strength through realpolitik, terroristic repression, and intermittent bursts of belligerency, which only serves to prolong hostility and hatred in the already sufficiently aggrieved hearts of people on both sides.

Mm-hmm, Israel is quite apparently having difficulty growing, on its own, out of its unconstructive mindset about how to ensure its security, and so the other nations of the world need to help encourage, i.e., compel such growth. They need to do this by withdrawing any and all support from, and by severely economically embargoing, Israel, until that nation relents and demonstrates a willingness to finally seek peace not through strength alone, but through justice and the application of human decency. But of course the governments of the United States and of Israel's other Western allies aren't about to do such a thing, and therefore it falls to the public of the Western world to vocally and persistently demand such a response from its political leaders. As we all know, all too well, our presidents and prime ministers, Establishment and ruling class, have their own pragmatic agenda, which usually has precious little to do with justice and decency, if we the people don't induce them to do the right thing we can be reasonably certain that they won't.

Have Israel's enemies sinned too? Of course they have, they're human beings, aren't they?! But they aren't the ones who historically threw the first punch, and their sins certainly don't disentitle them to a politically and morally just resolution to their plight, a plight, let us never forget, not of their own making, but rather inflicted upon them through no fault whatsoever of their own, despite the revisionist Israeli version of history.

It's also the height of haughty hypocrisy for Americans and Europeans to make the simplistic judgment that the Palestinians must be the villains because they sometimes resort to so-called terror tactics.The Allies, i.e., the "good guys", during the course of World War Two utilized some pretty darn terroristic tactics against their enemies, carpet bombing German cities, nuking Hiroshima & Nagasaki, and whatnot, but although these actions deserve condemnation no one today, except perhaps neo-Nazis, takes the position that the Allies were simply terrorist criminals (even I don't take such a position, and I'm not one who thinks that the Allies genuinely took on the Nazis for the noblest of reasons) . No, despite the inexcusable evils that we perpetrated during that conflict we still feel amply entitled to view ourselves as shinning exemplars of moral superiority. Well then, if we can commit atrocities and still be on the "right side", why can't the Palestinians? Or, is it another bit of "American exceptionalism" that only we can do reprehensible deeds and still be righteous?

At any rate, the inanely morally dualistic picture in which Palestinian fighters are baddies, pure and simple, and the Israeli Defense Force an ally heroically battling on the side of light in our own jihadic "War on Terror", facilely fails to take into account the fact that the supposed baddies have a legitimate cause to struggle for, and that our ally is often the one who behaves like an incorrigible enemy of peace.

Yes, Israeli behavior can certainly be considered and condemned as a form of terrorism, we're simply not inclined to be concerned about or denunciatory of Israeli terrorism because it isn't often directed at Americans (there was that one infamous incident in which an unprovoked Israeli attack took the lives of 34 sailors on a U.S. naval vessel, the USS Liberty; Israel of course claimed that it was an innocent accident, but those who survived the attack and most semi-intelligent people don't buy that lame claim - Admiral Isaac Kidd privately called the perpetrators "murderous bastards"). Well, it's hardly a recondite psychological insight that, like many human beings, Americans can be quite self-centered and tend to moralize only against those whom they fear. As we all know, since 9/11 Americans have had a heightened fear of Muslim Middle-Easterners, which conduces to the skewed judgmental perception that the Palestinians have a monopoly on terrorism and the Israelis are merely defending themselves. This is quite far, however, from the reality experienced by the thousands of innocent victims on the receiving end of the cruel and sometimes lethal methods employed by Israel to keep the Palestinians a disinherited and disenfranchised people.

American administrations, since the late 60s, have, for self-serving strategic reasons, and because of the growing influence of the pro-Israel lobby, been increasingly supportive of their "closest ally in the region". Not surprisingly, Israel's harsh treatment of its subject people, i.e., the Palestinians, hasn't really troubled this country's morally-challenged fatcatocracy terribly much. Well, this is, after all, the same fatcatocracy that has, through proxies and puppets, through CIA instigated coups and American funded regimes, and through the exercise of First World financial hegemony, generated so much evil and suffering throughout the world.

Oops, did I momentarily veer off into an anti-capitalist rant? No matter, regardless of what one thinks of the American powers and principalities who've ordained to give Israel this privileged "closest ally in the region" status, well, it's obviously to be expected that the U.S. government and media aren't exactly going to portray our client as an outlaw terrorist state. The Palestinians, on the other hand, from whom this country's business-political Establishment stands to gain nothing, can be, and certainly are, defamatorily painted as fanatics, fundamentalists, and fomenters of terrorism most foul.

Add to this the fact that American evangelicals are staunchly pro-Zionist (right-wing Christians seem to have a disgusting sense of irony, advocating support of Israel because they believe that the continued presence of the Jewish people in the Holy Land is a prerequisite for God's fulfillment of the Book of Revelation's end-time scenario, which will include the extermination of most members of that ethnoreligious group; mm-hmm, quite perversely, evangelicals, by doing their bit for the survival of Israel are trying to inaugurate a millennial holocaust in which God will outdo Hitler by burning most of the Jews on earth not in brick ovens, but eternally in the fires of Hell), wielding their substantial clout in the Bible Belt and on the conservative side of the ole political spectrum to promote the Israeli cause, and the Palestinians have about a snowball's chance in Gaza on a summer day of their case ever receiving a fair hearing in this country.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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11/21/2012 9:50:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Conclusion

Well, with the government and the capitalist elite characteristically oblivious to the justice and moral dimension of the Israeli-Arab conflict, and with the right dominated by theological nincompoops willing to sacrifice peace in the Middle East because of a lamebrained belief in a zany apocalyptic fantasy, it's up to those of us on the left to raise people"s consciousness about the ongoing victimization of the Palestinian people at the hands of the Israeli government and military. Noam Chomsky is doing his part, are you?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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11/21/2012 9:55:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
*yawn*
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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11/21/2012 10:07:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 9:59:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Israel is obviously just defending itself!!

http://files.abovetopsecret.com...

A) those come from ifamericansknew.com (a very reputable website) and B) you can't simply determine who is right by looking at casualties. Is every single preemptive or offensive war evil?
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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11/21/2012 10:09:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And funnily enough, the son of the Hamas leader defected to Israel a while back.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/21/2012 10:10:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:09:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
And funnily enough, the son of the Hamas leader defected to Israel a while back.

I'm not surprised. Do you think he has a death wish?
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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11/21/2012 10:10:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Your not trolling by any chance:

http://debate.org...

Jat: That's part of why my posts tend to be lengthy and why I load up on facts, not just rhetoric - I'm an atheist anarchist nihilist absurdist who thinks humans are just linguistic/tool making animals who vastly overrate their own capabilities and thinks most people in modern American society are living in a really poor, pitiful, emotionally destructive, unfulfilling way... So when I express these thoughts and others, I've got to make a solid and compelling case, or else I know I'll be laughed at and written off as a kook.

Royal:Yeah, I guess you're right. I'll start doing this from now on.

http://debate.org...
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/21/2012 10:10:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:10:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:09:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
And funnily enough, the son of the Hamas leader defected to Israel a while back.

I'm not surprised. Do you think he has a death wish?

What I mean is any rational person would have defected in order to avoid being killed.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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11/21/2012 10:12:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as she thinks "They've come for me."
kfc
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:10:34 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:10:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:09:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
And funnily enough, the son of the Hamas leader defected to Israel a while back.

I'm not surprised. Do you think he has a death wish?

What I mean is any rational person would have defected in order to avoid being killed.

Oh.

So now your calling all other Palestinians who didn't deflect, not rational.

You dirty racist, you should be banned.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Kidon does not assassinate anti-zionists they assassinate people who pose a serious threat to Isreal's existence. Such as Osama or Ahmadinejad.

I noticed people who support Palestine are either a Muslim, an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, or just plain ignorant.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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11/21/2012 10:17:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Food for thought:

Picture 1: http://mondoweiss.net...
Picture 2: http://iamgavinrose.wordpress.com...

Look familiar?
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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11/21/2012 10:17:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Kidon does not assassinate anti-zionists they assassinate people who pose a serious threat to Isreal's existence. Such as Osama or Ahmadinejad.

I noticed people who support Palestine are either a Muslim, an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, or just plain ignorant.

Or R.P. aka. troll.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/21/2012 10:18:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:10:34 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:10:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:09:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
And funnily enough, the son of the Hamas leader defected to Israel a while back.

I'm not surprised. Do you think he has a death wish?

What I mean is any rational person would have defected in order to avoid being killed.

Oh.

So now your calling all other Palestinians who didn't deflect, not rational.

You dirty racist, you should be banned.

How is this racist? If you know that you're going to be targeted for death, wouldn't you defect?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/21/2012 10:18:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Kidon does not assassinate anti-zionists they assassinate people who pose a serious threat to Isreal's existence. Such as Osama or Ahmadinejad.

Lies. Kidon operates on US soil and assassinates people. I saw it in a television show.
I noticed people who support Palestine are either a Muslim, an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, or just plain ignorant.

Ad hominem
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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11/21/2012 10:20:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:18:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Kidon does not assassinate anti-zionists they assassinate people who pose a serious threat to Isreal's existence. Such as Osama or Ahmadinejad.

Lies. Kidon operates on US soil and assassinates people. I saw it in a television show.

Then it must be true.

I noticed people who support Palestine are either a Muslim, an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, or just plain ignorant.

Ad hominem
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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11/21/2012 10:41:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:17:37 PM, imabench wrote:
Food for thought:

Picture 1: http://mondoweiss.net...
Picture 2: http://iamgavinrose.wordpress.com...

Look familiar?

So if you support Palestine then you support forcing African Americans to yeild their land to American Indians?
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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11/21/2012 10:45:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 9:55:28 PM, MouthWash wrote:
*yawn*

Thanks for such constructive feedback.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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11/21/2012 10:55:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Kidon does not assassinate anti-zionists they assassinate people who pose a serious threat to Isreal's existence. Such as Osama or Ahmadinejad.

I noticed people who support Palestine are either a Muslim, an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, or just plain ignorant.

Hahahaha. Or they're like me, and they think Israel shouldn't be given entirely back to the original Palestinian inhabitant but they think this whole 45+ year long illegal occupation business has gone on too long.... and are a little disturbed by the fact that over 800,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes in 1948 and they aren't allowed to return home or get any compensation, but ANY Jew is given priority over them in making "Aliyah" to Israel, for the sole reason they are of Jewish descent. Yeah, I think that's pretty fvcked up, because in general I think freedom and the right to your property not being stolen from you and not being deprived of basic human rights are good things.

Do you know anything about the occupation and the living conditions which the people who live under it are subject to? Israel has consistently ruled over these territories with an iron fist, allowing the inhabitants very few human rights (certainly not legal/political rights), creating segregated roads, bulldozing houses and farms to make way for Israeli settlements, setting up degrading checkpoints that take hours to get through, control over the entire Palestinian economy, retaining the right to sanction and blockade and drone strike virtually whenever they feel like Israeli security is threatened. Which is a joke, by the way. Take Operation Cast Lead, the Gaza "war" from late 2008 to early 2009. Something like 1500 Palestinians killed, Gazan infrastructure (hospitals, homes, water supply, electricity, etc) in shambles. Something like a dozen or so Israelis killed. In this conflict too we see a handful of Israelis have been killed and the Palestinian death toll is over 130, and we haven't seen the end.

Naturally, you will hear rationalizations of the overwhelming amount of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel based on the fact that "Hamas uses human shields." This too is laughable - when you force 1.5 million people into a roughly 140-square-mile strip of land and control their ability to enter and leave, it's pretty hard to find a place which couldn't be said to be hiding among human shields. Israel is deliberately bombing government and civilian locations and if it turns out that an entire family is killed and no militants were hiding out there (this has happened at least once in the conflict so far), it"s "oh well, we had good reason to believe Hamas was hiding out there, I guess we were wrong, such is life." I wonder if Hamas did the same thing, if the Israeli government would accept their own justifications for the slaying of civilians if it was used against them. Probably not - remember, Hamas never has the right to violent self defense, but Israel never DOESN'T have the right to violent self defense.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/21/2012 11:00:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:18:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Kidon does not assassinate anti-zionists they assassinate people who pose a serious threat to Isreal's existence. Such as Osama or Ahmadinejad.

Lies. Kidon operates on US soil and assassinates people. I saw it in a television show.
I saw a TV show that claimed Pompay was caused by aliens. Doesn't make it true. Good tv =\= fact
I noticed people who support Palestine are either a Muslim, an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, or just plain ignorant.

Ad hominem

No, it's an observation.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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11/21/2012 11:39:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:55:34 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Kidon does not assassinate anti-zionists they assassinate people who pose a serious threat to Isreal's existence. Such as Osama or Ahmadinejad.

I noticed people who support Palestine are either a Muslim, an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, or just plain ignorant.



Do you know anything about the occupation and the living conditions which the people who live under it are subject to? Israel has consistently ruled over these territories with an iron fist, allowing the inhabitants very few human rights (certainly not legal/political rights), creating segregated roads...
Segregate? The only ones who live their are palestinians, how could there be segregation?

As for the condition, I can't say, I've never been there.
They say its pretty bad, but I saw some one make an interesting point yesterday.
Look at the following pictures:
http://www.nydailynews.com...

In the comments some one wrote:
"If Israel is such an oppressive occupier of Palestine (wait"wasn"t the "occupy movement" a good thing here in the US"Obama said so"isn"t being an occupier a good thing"uh..back to the note)"then how come all these guys have the nice cell phones with big screens and internet and camera capabilities?? they all look to have nice clothes as well"darn nice"no dirt..no holes" Not the usual pictures the MSM gives of the Palestinian people"they seem pretty Middle Class America don"t they".
You would think that if Israel TRULY was the oppressive dictatorship over these people that the MSM claim, the first thing I would do as a dictator is block their cell access, block their access to goods and services, and block their access to information via TV, radio, or internet".which Israel could do since Gaza and the West Bank don"t have their own power plants or infrastructure except what Israel put there before giving back the land after winning it during the 1967 war of aggression by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon".

Wow"this can"t be Palestine"those poor dirt farmers could never have cell phones and nice clothes""
Not to mention the motorcycles.

So I don't know what to make of all that.


Naturally, you will hear rationalizations of the overwhelming amount of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel based on the fact that "Hamas uses human shields." This too is laughable - when you force 1.5 million people into a roughly 140-square-mile strip of land and control their ability to enter and leave, it's pretty hard to find a place which couldn't be said to be hiding among human shields.

If you look at Google earth you will see there is plenty of room to fire rockets without doing it from hospitals.
Sometimes they do actually shoot from unpopulated areas. such as:

http://www.google.com...

http://www.google.com...

http://www.google.com...
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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11/22/2012 12:04:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can someone make the Pro-Israel argument? The maps, history, statistics, and news stories I've seen all sway me to the Palestinian side, but I've heard that the Israel-side has some good arguments. What are the main points?
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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11/22/2012 12:30:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 12:04:27 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Can someone make the Pro-Israel argument? The maps, history, statistics, and news stories I've seen all sway me to the Palestinian side, but I've heard that the Israel-side has some good arguments. What are the main points?

How about they won the war?
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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11/22/2012 12:38:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 12:04:27 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Can someone make the Pro-Israel argument? The maps, history, statistics, and news stories I've seen all sway me to the Palestinian side, but I've heard that the Israel-side has some good arguments. What are the main points?

Here goes nothing.

Hamas is a terrorist organization intent on destroying all of Israel from which Israel must defend itself. The Jewish people have a right to the land because God promised it to them and/or they have a historical connection to the land and/or they were extensively persecuted throughout history so they needed a homeland. The occupation isn't as bad as it seems; there is no real human rights crisis in the occupied territories and Israel actually does much more than it is morally obligated to in order to help them out. Israel has tried to negotiate for peace settlements many times only to be consistently rejected by the Palestinians. Hamas uses human shields. The IDF is one of the most moral armies in the world; they even inform the residents of the places they attack of incoming attacks before they happen so the people can evacuate. The UN, international community, and mainstream media are all unfairly biased against Israel and Jews (the grand anti-Semitic conspiracy), hence the ridiculously disproportionate amount of resolutions the UN has passed condemning Israeli treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories...

And are they really occupied territories? Israel won them fair and square in a war they didn't choose to start (Six Day War 1967), and in 2005 Israel even "disengaged" from Gaza, removing the settlements there. How much more do the Palestinians want? We give and we give but all they want is more more more; they'll never be happy until Israel is a non-Jewish state and completely in their control. Violent collective punishment against the Palestinian population is justified because they voted for and support terrorists and Israel must defend its security. No other country is so harshly condemned for merely defending its security... How else are they supposed to respond, how would America respond to a barrage of deadly rockets from Mexico? And speaking of America, look at what they did to the Native Americans - this is how often simply how new countries are formed (violently displacing, expelling, terrorizing the indigenous population) so why is Israel condemned for the violent, terror-induced expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians (at least) in 1948? It's an anti-Semitic hypocrisy I say! Stop hating on the Jews more than anyone else and applying unfair standards to them that no other country is expected to abide by. What do you expect them to do, with the barrage of rockets coming in from enemies who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?

(Note: This is the only part of this post which I believe is not blatantly false/contradictory/inconsistent to the best of my knowledge. I think the above two paragraphs are basically propaganda, full of flat out lies and distorted half truths. But still, having spent most of my life in Zionist, pro-Israel schools and synagogues and associating mostly with Zionist friends and family, and also studying the Israeli-Palestine conflict pretty extensively, I can say this is a solid summary of basic pro-Israel points.)
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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11/22/2012 12:39:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 12:30:16 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/22/2012 12:04:27 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Can someone make the Pro-Israel argument? The maps, history, statistics, and news stories I've seen all sway me to the Palestinian side, but I've heard that the Israel-side has some good arguments. What are the main points?

How about they won the war?

This works too.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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11/22/2012 12:58:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 11:39:03 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:55:34 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:15:23 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:04:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:00:12 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
No. I think this is the reason we should support the Palestinians:

http://www.theblaze.com...#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

It's very important that we have places like this because there aren't enough places like that in the world.

I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Kidon does not assassinate anti-zionists they assassinate people who pose a serious threat to Isreal's existence. Such as Osama or Ahmadinejad.

I noticed people who support Palestine are either a Muslim, an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, or just plain ignorant.



Do you know anything about the occupation and the living conditions which the people who live under it are subject to? Israel has consistently ruled over these territories with an iron fist, allowing the inhabitants very few human rights (certainly not legal/political rights), creating segregated roads...
Segregate? The only ones who live their are palestinians, how could there be segregation?

As for the condition, I can't say, I've never been there.
They say its pretty bad, but I saw some one make an interesting point yesterday.
Look at the following pictures:
http://www.nydailynews.com...

In the comments some one wrote:
"If Israel is such an oppressive occupier of Palestine (wait"wasn"t the "occupy movement" a good thing here in the US"Obama said so"isn"t being an occupier a good thing"uh..back to the note)"then how come all these guys have the nice cell phones with big screens and internet and camera capabilities?? they all look to have nice clothes as well"darn nice"no dirt..no holes" Not the usual pictures the MSM gives of the Palestinian people"they seem pretty Middle Class America don"t they".
You would think that if Israel TRULY was the oppressive dictatorship over these people that the MSM claim, the first thing I would do as a dictator is block their cell access, block their access to goods and services, and block their access to information via TV, radio, or internet".which Israel could do since Gaza and the West Bank don"t have their own power plants or infrastructure except what Israel put there before giving back the land after winning it during the 1967 war of aggression by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon".

Wow"this can"t be Palestine"those poor dirt farmers could never have cell phones and nice clothes""
Not to mention the motorcycles.

So I don't know what to make of all that.


Naturally, you will hear rationalizations of the overwhelming amount of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel based on the fact that "Hamas uses human shields." This too is laughable - when you force 1.5 million people into a roughly 140-square-mile strip of land and control their ability to enter and leave, it's pretty hard to find a place which couldn't be said to be hiding among human shields.

If you look at Google earth you will see there is plenty of room to fire rockets without doing it from hospitals.
Sometimes they do actually shoot from unpopulated areas. such as:

http://www.google.com...

http://www.google.com...

http://www.google.com...

Sorry for the triple post yall, just want to let truthseeker know that I'll respond to this at some point, but it'll require me digging up some sources, and I'm not quite in the mood right now. I need a break from the Israeli-Palestine conflict for a little. By the way, truthseeker, I'm assuming the 613 comes from the amount of mitzvot (as per Rambam's tally, I think)? I just find it funny that MouthWash and I are probably the only ones around here who would ever possibly catch that. Yay for Jews.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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11/22/2012 1:03:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 12:04:27 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Can someone make the Pro-Israel argument? The maps, history, statistics, and news stories I've seen all sway me to the Palestinian side, but I've heard that the Israel-side has some good arguments. What are the main points?

If I get the time I'll write something up. If you really want to get the Israeli side I suggest:

1) N.Y. Times Best seller: "The Case for Israel" - by Alan Dershowitz
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.amazon.com...

2) "The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism"
By Conor Cruise O'Brien - Irish politician, writer, historian and academic. He was ambassador to the U.N. for Ireland putting him between Iraq and Israel ( They sit in abc order).

http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.barnesandnoble.com...

3) "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh