Total Posts:23|Showing Posts:1-23
Jump to topic:

Innovation & Regulation

Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 10:49:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What effect do you think the increasing regulations, taxes, and perverse incentives have on innovation? Do you think technology, innovation, and positive scientific advances will reach a plateau in the face of regulatory states or will the decentralized resilience of individual minds continue to push forward by circumventing such violence with creativity and vigor? What do you think?

Also, I didn't know where to post this video, but this guy is incredibly interesting and he gets me excited about the possibilities of the future, so I'll post it here.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:08:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

your probably just more likely not to think about the money. i don't think most people actively think about pay while working since they're only paid once or every other week. I certainly don't.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:16:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:08:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

your probably just more likely not to think about the money. i don't think most people actively think about pay while working since they're only paid once or every other week. I certainly don't.

I don't think it is a matter of thinking about pay. Consider the difference between playing high school basketball vs playing in the NBA. The more that money becomes involved the more pressure there is to produce. Pressure changes the way people think, and in many cases makes us resentful of things we used to be ok with. I can certainly see this having a negative effect on creativity, which is essential in innovation.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:21:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

Not according to psychological studies
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:22:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:08:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

your probably just more likely not to think about the money. i don't think most people actively think about pay while working since they're only paid once or every other week. I certainly don't.

No, these weren't soft surveys. These were actually studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:22:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:16:57 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:08:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

your probably just more likely not to think about the money. i don't think most people actively think about pay while working since they're only paid once or every other week. I certainly don't.

I don't think it is a matter of thinking about pay. Consider the difference between playing high school basketball vs playing in the NBA. The more that money becomes involved the more pressure there is to produce. Pressure changes the way people think, and in many cases makes us resentful of things we used to be ok with. I can certainly see this having a negative effect on creativity, which is essential in innovation.

Bingo
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:24:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:21:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

Not according to psychological studies

Hmm, interesting.

Oh, and wtf, you responded directly to me?!
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:30:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:22:07 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:08:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

your probably just more likely not to think about the money. i don't think most people actively think about pay while working since they're only paid once or every other week. I certainly don't.

No, these weren't soft surveys. These were actually studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

I've read about these studies and don't dispute their findings for the most part.

However, like I said, I don't think people actively think about pay when working, unless they get a big reward for completing some sort of task.

If they were, then employers wouldn't be giving high pay to those in science technology engineering and math, but these fields offer pretty good salaries.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:31:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:16:57 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:08:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

your probably just more likely not to think about the money. i don't think most people actively think about pay while working since they're only paid once or every other week. I certainly don't.

I don't think it is a matter of thinking about pay. Consider the difference between playing high school basketball vs playing in the NBA. The more that money becomes involved the more pressure there is to produce. Pressure changes the way people think, and in many cases makes us resentful of things we used to be ok with. I can certainly see this having a negative effect on creativity, which is essential in innovation.

And yet NBA players play better then high school basketball players.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:37:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:26:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:16:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Because government funded technology research has obviously done nothing for us.

It does give us a lot of weapons.

Aye. The success of government investment in technology is really the single good thing about the military industrial complex.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:40:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:37:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:26:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:16:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Because government funded technology research has obviously done nothing for us.

It does give us a lot of weapons.

Aye. The success of government investment in technology is really the single good thing about the military industrial complex.

I don't think having really sophisticated drones or big-boom-bombs is worthy of praise. You could always argue "internet", but the actual history of what we now know as the internet is substantially more nuanced than "oh guvmint created ARPANET case closed".
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:47:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:31:39 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:16:57 PM, Double_R wrote:
I don't think it is a matter of thinking about pay. Consider the difference between playing high school basketball vs playing in the NBA. The more that money becomes involved the more pressure there is to produce. Pressure changes the way people think, and in many cases makes us resentful of things we used to be ok with. I can certainly see this having a negative effect on creativity, which is essential in innovation.

And yet NBA players play better then high school basketball players.

I doubt creativity plays much of a role.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:50:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm actually in love with that video. It covers so much. That guy reminds me a lot to myself in how these things role off his mind.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:56:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:50:57 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm actually in love with that video. It covers so much. That guy reminds me a lot to myself in how these things role off his mind.

I'd describe his delivery as a drive-by shooting of ideas. I'm glad you love it :)
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2012 11:57:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:40:29 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:37:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:26:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/10/2012 11:16:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Because government funded technology research has obviously done nothing for us.

It does give us a lot of weapons.

Aye. The success of government investment in technology is really the single good thing about the military industrial complex.

I don't think having really sophisticated drones or big-boom-bombs is worthy of praise. You could always argue "internet", but the actual history of what we now know as the internet is substantially more nuanced than "oh guvmint created ARPANET case closed".

Nuclear energy, cell-phones and memory foam are just some things off the top of my head.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2012 12:14:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
That which fosters creative thought, "thinking outside the box," non-conventional ways of solving problems, etc. is conducive to innovation. That which encourages adherence to the status quo, the establishment, "the man", and punishes disobedience against him, is less conducive for innovation. Sometimes, in societies where creative thinking toward problem solving ( personal, social, political problems -- problems of all sorts) is heavily stifled, you'll have a few people who rise to the top because their individuality could not be beaten out of them by The System and its commands and the threatened punishments that come with breaking them, the punishments that tend to keep most people scared enough to stay in line. These people may even find that their individuality was fostered by the intense opposition of The System to their creativity. However, society will be far worse off because of it, and there will certainly be a shortage of truly creative, revolutionary, boundless thinkers. We certainly need more crazy geniuses and artists in our society. This explains my generally staunch opposition to government regulation on businesses and all non-violent activity. Or any kind of tyrannical, totalitarian entity that seeks to regulate non-violent activity in a similar manner (some implied, unjustified, illusory punishment to discourage the banned activity, be it a punishment physical/earthly or otherwise).

Unfortunately, the problem that most people run into when considering those that were truly innovative in their fields, really thought outside the box and somehow eventually found success, is that they tend to think "oh, those people are the exceptions. They got there by accident. I have to stay in the traditional route in terms of conventional socio-cultural norms, I've got to go to school for X amount of time until I get Y amount of degrees, I've got to adhere to this community's definitions of moral/life values X Y and Z, I can't upset my parents...." and so on. These are only pathetic justification for avoiding the possibility of failure that any true innovator must deal with. You see, most people can't face the possibility of failure so they live their lives stifling their inborn creativity, just standing in line, working for a system that enslaves them, but they remain ignorant to this whole process. Because to know that there is another alternative would in and of itself set them free. And if they were set free they'd be forced to assume personal responsibility, and face the possibilities (and benefits!) of seriously messing up but forcing yourself to get back on your feet again. They'd have to stop living life as an illusion to become truly creative innovators, and would have to life it as a true individual. If there's anything that the "common man" in modern industrialized consumerist societies is not cut out for, it is this.

Down with all regulations that stifle interesting, creative, innovative individuality, and up with anything of any sort that encourages and promotes it and understands why it is of the utmost importance.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2012 2:52:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:21:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:56:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 12/10/2012 10:50:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Money does not drive innovation. Researchers studied this and discovered that monetary incentives actually are a negative incentive when tasks involve intellectual activity. At best, you will get a short term boost, but this will inevitably turn into a long term failure. People have to enjoy the task. That is the best motivation.

So, people can't enjoy the task if they are doing it for money? If I knows I was gonna make a lot of money off something, I would porbably enjoy it.

Not according to psychological studies

You're completely misrepresenting that study. The study dealt with motivation for task based activities. The conclusion of it was that when tasks contain a component of intellectual stimulation, it was often not necessary to use reward based incentives to coax the study participants into completing those tasks (knowledge is its own reward?), but it was necessary to do so with rote and laborious tasks.

It did not conclude that money disincentivized these activities, and in the end, intellectual stimulus don't put food on the table (i.e. eventually folks gotta find something that gets them paid).

All that study told me is that most people are bored. I know I usually am.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
slo1
Posts: 4,341
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2012 1:23:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Natural selection never goes away. It bothers me that there is a lot of suggestions that we have transcended in the vid. Even if we can (which I believe at some point we will) take our consciousness and put it in a machine that can last longer than our "meat bags", we will not be able to guarantee the resources to everyone that they can live forever, which is the only way to ultimately eliminate natural selection as a concern for survival.

As far a stopping innovation, it can only be delayed.

Advancement Headwinds:
- Old technology still too profitable to create enough reward to justify investment to develop new technology. (oil)
- Religious -ideological - ethical limitations on research. (cloning humans, etc.)
- Too much proprietary information (patents)
- Economic systems that don't provide working capital, allow for risk (bankruptcy), or does not allow for adequate return on investment. (Think North Korea).

Advancement Tailwinds
1. Lots of public research and public information. (open source, nasa and university shared information.)
2. Adequate capital systems to scrape up funding.

What is it about the human spirit that wants to always understand the world and create new technologies? I think that there are three main drivers. One is just an extreme curiosity the second is tied into some type of megalomania. One man can loose his whole life, house, and family trying to make a bear proof suit of armor and the next guy can spend most his fortune trying to start up an electric car company. They are probably booth crazy, but one might succeed and other just has fun to watch video's on the web of him getting beat up in his suits of armor as he tests it.

The third driver is to make money.