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The Newtown Conn. Shootings And Gun Control

Oxymoron
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12/15/2012 12:36:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yahoo! "News" put up a front page article: "Calls for greater gun control after mass shooting at school"

Apparently "New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said he was 'shocked and saddened' by the tragic shooting. He said society should 'unify' to 'crack down on the guns.' And New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg said 'immediate action' was needed."

Okay, let's say we do crack down on guns. Let's blame the pencil for failing the essay not the student, and effectively disarm every single responsible citizen in the United States. No more school tragedies, right?

According to FoxNews.com: "A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for morning classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at schools and kindergartens.... No motive was given for the stabbings, which echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50. The most recent such attack took place in August, when a knife-wielding man broke into a middle school in the southern city of Nanchang and stabbed two students before fleeing."

Take guns away, and you get stabbings. Personally, I'd rather get shot and get it over with. Disarming the people of the United States will not stop tragedies from happening.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Oxymoron
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12/15/2012 12:43:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 12:38:51 AM, darkkermit wrote:
gun control isn't the same as removing guns.

When did I equivocate the two? I said "let's say we do crack down on guns. Let's blame the pencil for failing the essay not the student, and effectively disarm every single responsible citizen in the United States. No more school tragedies, right?"

No equivocation, or implication of equivocation here.
Oxymoron
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12/15/2012 12:45:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 12:43:14 AM, Oxymoron wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:38:51 AM, darkkermit wrote:
gun control isn't the same as removing guns.

When did I equivocate the two? I said "let's say we do crack down on guns. Let's blame the pencil for failing the essay not the student, and effectively disarm every single responsible citizen in the United States. No more school tragedies, right?"

No equivocation, or implication of equivocation here.

If you are referencing my topic title, then I see where you are coming from. The removal of guns would not be gun control? I view that as very controlling.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/15/2012 12:46:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 12:43:14 AM, Oxymoron wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:38:51 AM, darkkermit wrote:
gun control isn't the same as removing guns.

When did I equivocate the two? I said "let's say we do crack down on guns. Let's blame the pencil for failing the essay not the student, and effectively disarm every single responsible citizen in the United States. No more school tragedies, right?"

No equivocation, or implication of equivocation here.

"Take guns away, and you get stabbings. Personally, I'd rather get shot and get it over with. Disarming the people of the United States will not stop tragedies from happening."
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Oxymoron
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12/15/2012 12:53:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 12:46:51 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:43:14 AM, Oxymoron wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:38:51 AM, darkkermit wrote:
gun control isn't the same as removing guns.

When did I equivocate the two? I said "let's say we do crack down on guns. Let's blame the pencil for failing the essay not the student, and effectively disarm every single responsible citizen in the United States. No more school tragedies, right?"

No equivocation, or implication of equivocation here.


"Take guns away, and you get stabbings. Personally, I'd rather get shot and get it over with. Disarming the people of the United States will not stop tragedies from happening."

Darkkermit, no need to play this semantic game. When I speak of gun control, I am speaking of absolute, complete gun control. Not light regulations.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/15/2012 1:04:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 12:53:41 AM, Oxymoron wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:46:51 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:43:14 AM, Oxymoron wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:38:51 AM, darkkermit wrote:
gun control isn't the same as removing guns.

When did I equivocate the two? I said "let's say we do crack down on guns. Let's blame the pencil for failing the essay not the student, and effectively disarm every single responsible citizen in the United States. No more school tragedies, right?"

No equivocation, or implication of equivocation here.


"Take guns away, and you get stabbings. Personally, I'd rather get shot and get it over with. Disarming the people of the United States will not stop tragedies from happening."

Darkkermit, no need to play this semantic game. When I speak of gun control, I am speaking of absolute, complete gun control. Not light regulations.

Your original statement is that you didn't equivalent gun control with banning gun. Now you are stating that you meant "absolute complete gun control" not light regulation, whatever that means. Although "light" regulation of guns would still be gun control.
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Maikuru
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12/15/2012 1:20:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 12:36:17 AM, Oxymoron wrote:
Personally, I'd rather get shot and get it over with.

How many kids died in the China stabbing?
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Deathbeforedishonour
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12/15/2012 9:50:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 1:20:11 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:36:17 AM, Oxymoron wrote:
Personally, I'd rather get shot and get it over with.

How many kids died in the China stabbing?

How many kids almost died? The knife had just as much chance as the gun.
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Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/15/2012 1:04:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Guns aren't necessarily the problem. There are countries with lower gun ownership to gun homicides ratios, and some with higher.

The problem is society, that the nature of the country is that some people are angry, desperate, or amoral enough to want to kill and maim each other.

While it's true that Guns don't kill People, Peope kill People, I would much rather that people who kill people were armed with baseball bats rather than guns; it makes it far harder for them.
Maikuru
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12/15/2012 1:30:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 9:50:17 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 12/15/2012 1:20:11 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:36:17 AM, Oxymoron wrote:
Personally, I'd rather get shot and get it over with.

How many kids died in the China stabbing?

How many kids almost died? The knife had just as much chance as the gun.

lol
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Double_R
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12/16/2012 12:11:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nothing will stop a deranged individual from harming others if that is their goal, but the last thing we should do is make it easy for them. Gun control is not about taking away peoples guns, just doing more to ensure that deranged individuals aren't buying guns as if they were bubble gum.

Whether this or any other gun control measures will prevent any of these mass shootings or reduce gun violence is highly debatable, but what annoys me is when people say now is not the time to talk about it. That makes no sense. Nobody claimed after 9/11 that it was not the time to talk about national security. Nobody claimed after the financial meltdown that it was not the time to talk about what we can do to prevent future economic disasters. Only with gun violence do we take such a nonsensical position that the time when we are all focused on the problem is not the time to talk about how to solve the problem.
Khaos_Mage
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12/16/2012 5:21:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 12:11:30 AM, Double_R wrote:
Nothing will stop a deranged individual from harming others if that is their goal, but the last thing we should do is make it easy for them. Gun control is not about taking away peoples guns, just doing more to ensure that deranged individuals aren't buying guns as if they were bubble gum.

Whether this or any other gun control measures will prevent any of these mass shootings or reduce gun violence is highly debatable, but what annoys me is when people say now is not the time to talk about it. That makes no sense. Nobody claimed after 9/11 that it was not the time to talk about national security. Nobody claimed after the financial meltdown that it was not the time to talk about what we can do to prevent future economic disasters. Only with gun violence do we take such a nonsensical position that the time when we are all focused on the problem is not the time to talk about how to solve the problem.

I assume the reason some people don't want to talk about this right now is because emotions run high, and actual logical discussion may seem cold and heartless to voters, victims, and the general public, regardless on which side. With your examples, emotions ran high too, but there were identifiable causes that led to these tragedies that could be addressed (better communication between CIA and FBI could have prevented 9/11, stop guaranteeing bank loans/better SEC oversight), while there is no real solution to end gun violence, except to eliminate all guns.
My work here is, finally, done.
Niwsa
Posts: 161
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12/16/2012 8:51:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'd like to point out that when people hear that the nation needs to "have a discussion about gun violence" they will jump to the conclusion that it needs to be through gun reform itself, which is already a hot-button issue.

These shootings are not something that the nation can rally around because they're something we're already divided over.
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twocupcakes
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12/16/2012 8:58:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think gun control is a good thing. I don't get why people get all up in arms about it. People still will have the right to have guns. There will just be more regulation to make sure guns get in the hands of good, responsible people and people act safe with there guns.

For example, Adam Lanza should not have passed a mental health check. If people were required to keep hand guns in a safe, kids could not steel them from there parents.
lewis20
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12/16/2012 9:02:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 8:58:41 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
I think gun control is a good thing. I don't get why people get all up in arms about it. People still will have the right to have guns. There will just be more regulation to make sure guns get in the hands of good, responsible people and people act safe with there guns.

For example, Adam Lanza should not have passed a mental health check. If people were required to keep hand guns in a safe, kids could not steel them from there parents.

How do you keep guns only in registered hands within a household? Two way tvs that monitor to be sure the kids mom doesn't allow her son access to the guns?
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lewis20
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12/16/2012 9:18:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 9:10:34 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Much harder to kill large groups of people with a knife.

Who's to say they won't start using bombs? Directions are readily available on the internet.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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twocupcakes
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12/16/2012 9:28:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 9:02:15 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/16/2012 8:58:41 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
I think gun control is a good thing. I don't get why people get all up in arms about it. People still will have the right to have guns. There will just be more regulation to make sure guns get in the hands of good, responsible people and people act safe with there guns.

For example, Adam Lanza should not have passed a mental health check. If people were required to keep hand guns in a safe, kids could not steel them from there parents.

How do you keep guns only in registered hands within a household? Two way tvs that monitor to be sure the kids mom doesn't allow her son access to the guns?

How about, as I said, requiring handguns to be kept in a safe. That way, the parent/registered person is the only one with access to the gun, because the parent has the combination. The kid/unregistered person can't get the gun if the kid does not know the combination.

Maybe make the registered person liable for for any damages if there gun is stolen and used for crime. That way, they have incentive to protect there gun from unregistered.
lewis20
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12/16/2012 9:52:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 9:28:03 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 12/16/2012 9:02:15 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/16/2012 8:58:41 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
I think gun control is a good thing. I don't get why people get all up in arms about it. People still will have the right to have guns. There will just be more regulation to make sure guns get in the hands of good, responsible people and people act safe with there guns.

For example, Adam Lanza should not have passed a mental health check. If people were required to keep hand guns in a safe, kids could not steel them from there parents.

How do you keep guns only in registered hands within a household? Two way tvs that monitor to be sure the kids mom doesn't allow her son access to the guns?

How about, as I said, requiring handguns to be kept in a safe. That way, the parent/registered person is the only one with access to the gun, because the parent has the combination. The kid/unregistered person can't get the gun if the kid does not know the combination.

Maybe make the registered person liable for for any damages if there gun is stolen and used for crime. That way, they have incentive to protect there gun from unregistered.

That's what I said, how do you enforce that, I cant know the combo to my dads gun safe until I get registered as a gun handler by the state? The registered person is liable if a weapon is stolen and not reported to police.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

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16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/16/2012 10:38:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lol. The school was a gun free zone, and that state has fairly strict gun regulations. Even Clinton era government researchers have failed to say an assault weapons ban would decrease crime. Lott (2003,2010) provides evidence that it increases crime. Interestingly, an NAS panel has essentially concluded we need more research but they do not think gun control helps. Guns are used defensively 2.5 million times a year. Anti gun academic journsls have showed the Brady law had not decreased murder rates. In 2003 the CDC--often an anti gun favorite--found after researching 51 studies that gun control failed to reduce crime. Gun crime and overall crimes always increase after a gun ban.

For those wanting to read a short free book on the topic, go here:
http://www.gunfacts.info...
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
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imabench
Posts: 21,229
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12/16/2012 10:45:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 12:11:30 AM, Double_R wrote:
Nothing will stop a deranged individual from harming others if that is their goal, but the last thing we should do is make it easy for them. Gun control is not about taking away peoples guns, just doing more to ensure that deranged individuals aren't buying guns as if they were bubble gum.

Whether this or any other gun control measures will prevent any of these mass shootings or reduce gun violence is highly debatable, but what annoys me is when people say now is not the time to talk about it. That makes no sense. Nobody claimed after 9/11 that it was not the time to talk about national security. Nobody claimed after the financial meltdown that it was not the time to talk about what we can do to prevent future economic disasters. Only with gun violence do we take such a nonsensical position that the time when we are all focused on the problem is not the time to talk about how to solve the problem.

100,000 points to you
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000ike
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12/16/2012 10:46:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:45:11 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/16/2012 12:11:30 AM, Double_R wrote:
Nothing will stop a deranged individual from harming others if that is their goal, but the last thing we should do is make it easy for them. Gun control is not about taking away peoples guns, just doing more to ensure that deranged individuals aren't buying guns as if they were bubble gum.

Whether this or any other gun control measures will prevent any of these mass shootings or reduce gun violence is highly debatable, but what annoys me is when people say now is not the time to talk about it. That makes no sense. Nobody claimed after 9/11 that it was not the time to talk about national security. Nobody claimed after the financial meltdown that it was not the time to talk about what we can do to prevent future economic disasters. Only with gun violence do we take such a nonsensical position that the time when we are all focused on the problem is not the time to talk about how to solve the problem.

100,000 points to you
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Niwsa
Posts: 161
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12/16/2012 10:47:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Has any news even come out that Lanza himself bought the guns (there were 3 found, he used only 1)?
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imabench
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12/16/2012 10:53:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:47:11 AM, Niwsa wrote:
Has any news even come out that Lanza himself bought the guns (there were 3 found, he used only 1)?

They were registered to his mother last I heard, cant be sure though.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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lewis20
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12/16/2012 10:54:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:47:11 AM, Niwsa wrote:
Has any news even come out that Lanza himself bought the guns (there were 3 found, he used only 1)?

I've heard they were his moms, only the handgun was used and there were 2handguns and 2 rifles, one got left in the car
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

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Niwsa
Posts: 161
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12/16/2012 11:13:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I heard that it was only the rifle used... It was all over NPR when i was in the car... I'll go ahead and look it up.

Anyways, in this case specifically prohibiting access to the mentally infirm wouldn't have done anything. That's not to say that the conversation shouldn't be had but Lanza never went out and bought guns dribbling in the mouth and clearly crazy. His access to firearms in this situation is a completely different issue.
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twocupcakes
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12/16/2012 11:14:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 9:52:27 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/16/2012 9:28:03 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 12/16/2012 9:02:15 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/16/2012 8:58:41 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
I think gun control is a good thing. I don't get why people get all up in arms about it. People still will have the right to have guns. There will just be more regulation to make sure guns get in the hands of good, responsible people and people act safe with there guns.

For example, Adam Lanza should not have passed a mental health check. If people were required to keep hand guns in a safe, kids could not steel them from there parents.

How do you keep guns only in registered hands within a household? Two way tvs that monitor to be sure the kids mom doesn't allow her son access to the guns?

How about, as I said, requiring handguns to be kept in a safe. That way, the parent/registered person is the only one with access to the gun, because the parent has the combination. The kid/unregistered person can't get the gun if the kid does not know the combination.

Maybe make the registered person liable for for any damages if there gun is stolen and used for crime. That way, they have incentive to protect there gun from unregistered.

That's what I said, how do you enforce that, I cant know the combo to my dads gun safe until I get registered as a gun handler by the state? The registered person is liable if a weapon is stolen and not reported to police.

If it was stolen and not kept in a safe, then the person loses there right to own guns and probably should also be liable. The gun owner has to keep the gun in a safe. If the gun gets stolen, or it is found out it is not in a safe, then the person gets in trouble.

So, all handgun owners have to own a safe, and if there gun gets stolen and it is not in the safe(even if it was hidden), then the person is liable. So, if Adam Lanza's Mom did not die, she should definitely be civilly liable, and I think should also face jail time/be criminally liable.

If I could go to jail/pay money/ and lose my gun rights, if someone steels my gun not in a safe, I would always keep it in a safe.
emj32
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12/16/2012 11:15:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:53:29 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/16/2012 10:47:11 AM, Niwsa wrote:
Has any news even come out that Lanza himself bought the guns (there were 3 found, he used only 1)?

They were registered to his mother last I heard, cant be sure though.

So when Republicans argue "Well if the victim had a gun, this never would of happened", its wrong? No, who would of guessed?