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Indefinite Detention Is BACK

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/19/2012 3:19:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Rand Paul helped get the Constitutional right to trial inserted into the NDAA 2013 bill and got a majority Senate vote in favor of the amendment.

"Washington lawmakers" removed the amendment from the final draft to be signed by Obama.

http://rt.com...

And yet you still think this administration is benign and loves American people. Nope, no conspiracy here. No authoritarianism here. They want to disarm us, they want to indefinitely detain us, they have FEMA camps all over the country, they have Fusion Centers, theyre spying on us 24/7, they want to fly drones in your back yard, and theyre doing it all for your safety.

They're following Stalin and Hitlers footsteps by accident. Whoops, we took all your rights. Yeah, whoops.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

Rand Paul writes about the McCain (Bilderberg) led confere that got the amendment removed: http://www.paul.senate.gov...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
1Percenter
Posts: 781
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12/19/2012 3:54:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

Rand Paul writes about the McCain (Bilderberg) led confere that got the amendment removed: http://www.paul.senate.gov...

I don't know you personally, but if I did, I'd give you a good tinfoil hat for Christmas.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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12/19/2012 3:58:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 3:54:41 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

Rand Paul writes about the McCain (Bilderberg) led confere that got the amendment removed: http://www.paul.senate.gov...

I don't know you personally, but if I did, I'd give you a good tinfoil hat for Christmas.

lol he gets this tinfoil thing all the time.... What is that? A movie reference?

Anyway, I was under the impression that indefinite detention never went away. When did it leave?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
YYW
Posts: 36,296
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12/19/2012 4:05:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 3:58:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:54:41 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

Rand Paul writes about the McCain (Bilderberg) led confere that got the amendment removed: http://www.paul.senate.gov...

I don't know you personally, but if I did, I'd give you a good tinfoil hat for Christmas.

lol he gets this tinfoil thing all the time.... What is that? A movie reference?

Anyway, I was under the impression that indefinite detention never went away. When did it leave?

There was a supreme court case in 2006 that made it technically illegal to indefinitely detain someone, but it functionally never went away -it just took on a new name.
Tsar of DDO
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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12/19/2012 4:15:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What most people don't realize (and this is just a statement, not a defense or justification) is that when Obama came into office, he was handed a complete and utter sh!tstorm from Bush (though Obama followed in his footsteps).

Namely, Bush went around and grabbed a lot of legitimately bad guy terrorists and put them in Guantanamo and the like.

Problem is he didn't give a f*ck about actually ESTABLISHING that these guys were terrorists in a legal sense.

If you put most of the current Guantanamo inmates (who are actually guilty) in a real trial, they'd probably be acquitted for lack of evidence or other such technicalities.

The NDAA is the government's way of trying to put off this inevitable sh!tstorm from coming out.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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12/19/2012 4:20:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 4:05:58 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:58:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:54:41 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

Rand Paul writes about the McCain (Bilderberg) led confere that got the amendment removed: http://www.paul.senate.gov...

I don't know you personally, but if I did, I'd give you a good tinfoil hat for Christmas.

lol he gets this tinfoil thing all the time.... What is that? A movie reference?

Anyway, I was under the impression that indefinite detention never went away. When did it leave?

There was a supreme court case in 2006 that made it technically illegal to indefinitely detain someone, but it functionally never went away -it just took on a new name.

Ohhh. Well that was sweet of them to think of us and make Kafkaesque scenarios less legal for... a little bit...
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/19/2012 4:33:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 3:54:41 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

I don't know you personally, but if I did, I'd give you a good tinfoil hat for Christmas.

Number of refutations contained in this post: 0

It's all true and you can't deny it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/19/2012 6:44:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 4:05:58 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:58:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
Anyway, I was under the impression that indefinite detention never went away. When did it leave?

There was a supreme court case in 2006 that made it technically illegal to indefinitely detain someone, but it functionally never went away -it just took on a new name.

I was reffering to Rand Pauls recent victory of getting the Senate to vote in favor of amending the NDAA to get rid of indefinite detention. Many were under the impression that indefinite detention was eliminated as of a few weeks ago. Now lawmakers with no vote removed it.

Indefinite detention of U.S. Citizens is back!!
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Agent_Orange
Posts: 2,252
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12/19/2012 6:58:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 6:44:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/19/2012 4:05:58 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:58:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
Anyway, I was under the impression that indefinite detention never went away. When did it leave?

There was a supreme court case in 2006 that made it technically illegal to indefinitely detain someone, but it functionally never went away -it just took on a new name.

I was reffering to Rand Pauls recent victory of getting the Senate to vote in favor of amending the NDAA to get rid of indefinite detention. Many were under the impression that indefinite detention was eliminated as of a few weeks ago. Now lawmakers with no vote removed it.

Indefinite detention of U.S. Citizens is back!!

oh boy.........
#BlackLivesMatter
TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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12/19/2012 7:10:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 3:58:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:54:41 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

Rand Paul writes about the McCain (Bilderberg) led confere that got the amendment removed: http://www.paul.senate.gov...

I don't know you personally, but if I did, I'd give you a good tinfoil hat for Christmas.

lol he gets this tinfoil thing all the time.... What is that? A movie reference?

Anyway, I was under the impression that indefinite detention never went away. When did it leave?

Years ago? I think.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/19/2012 7:19:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 4:20:46 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 4:05:58 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:58:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:54:41 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

Rand Paul writes about the McCain (Bilderberg) led confere that got the amendment removed: http://www.paul.senate.gov...

I don't know you personally, but if I did, I'd give you a good tinfoil hat for Christmas.

lol he gets this tinfoil thing all the time.... What is that? A movie reference?

Anyway, I was under the impression that indefinite detention never went away. When did it leave?

There was a supreme court case in 2006 that made it technically illegal to indefinitely detain someone, but it functionally never went away -it just took on a new name.

Ohhh. Well that was sweet of them to think of us and make Kafkaesque scenarios less legal for... a little bit...

I dunno whether I'd consider the actual detention to be "Kafkaesque". I'd consider the vague internal deliberations/arbitrariness to be that way (following the theme of mysterious juridical/bureaucratic proceedings established in The Trial and The Castle). I do think there's something to be said for being held without charges, but most of Kafka's characters are pretty autonomous/disaffected for the duration (both Ks in each aforementioned text are pretty brazen and delusional about their situations throughout the novel), often playing a part in their own downfalls, so it's slightly disanalogous to compare to imprisoned individuals. From what I've read (and on my own interpretation, mind you), a lot of Kafka's work (at least, the work relevant here) is about how protagonists experience, confront, and navigate both power and the world around them. Even in German, "The Trial" reads as "der Prozess", translatable both as "trial" and as "process". So, I don't think the fact of imprisonment and its attendant laws are necessarily Kafkaeqsue. I think the deliberations are; I think that secret decisions of guilt are; I think exchanges with bureaucrats and appeals officials are; I don't think physical punishment is, but I think that litigation, processing, administration, judgment, and so on are.

tl;dr Sorry to rant, but I really like Kafka, and I really disagree with the usage of "Kafkaesque" here. Lol.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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12/19/2012 7:24:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:19:36 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/19/2012 4:20:46 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 4:05:58 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:58:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:54:41 PM, 1Percenter wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:27:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- Obama used our tax dollars to give twenty F16s fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. For our safety.

- Obama gave thousands of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. For our safety.

- Obama drone striked thousands of innocent children and demanded courts to drop cases against his murder of American citizens. For our safety.

Refute that.

Rand Paul writes about the McCain (Bilderberg) led confere that got the amendment removed: http://www.paul.senate.gov...

I don't know you personally, but if I did, I'd give you a good tinfoil hat for Christmas.

lol he gets this tinfoil thing all the time.... What is that? A movie reference?

Anyway, I was under the impression that indefinite detention never went away. When did it leave?

There was a supreme court case in 2006 that made it technically illegal to indefinitely detain someone, but it functionally never went away -it just took on a new name.

Ohhh. Well that was sweet of them to think of us and make Kafkaesque scenarios less legal for... a little bit...

I dunno whether I'd consider the actual detention to be "Kafkaesque". I'd consider the vague internal deliberations/arbitrariness to be that way (following the theme of mysterious juridical/bureaucratic proceedings established in The Trial and The Castle). I do think there's something to be said for being held without charges, but most of Kafka's characters are pretty autonomous/disaffected for the duration (both Ks in each aforementioned text are pretty brazen and delusional about their situations throughout the novel), often playing a part in their own downfalls, so it's slightly disanalogous to compare to imprisoned individuals. From what I've read (and on my own interpretation, mind you), a lot of Kafka's work (at least, the work relevant here) is about how protagonists experience, confront, and navigate both power and the world around them. Even in German, "The Trial" reads as "der Prozess", translatable both as "trial" and as "process". So, I don't think the fact of imprisonment and its attendant laws are necessarily Kafkaeqsue. I think the deliberations are; I think that secret decisions of guilt are; I think exchanges with bureaucrats and appeals officials are; I don't think physical punishment is, but I think that litigation, processing, administration, judgment, and so on are.

tl;dr Sorry to rant, but I really like Kafka, and I really disagree with the usage of "Kafkaesque" here. Lol.

lol

Well, I will see your nerdiness and raise you a personal experience of being indefinitely detained without charges. It's pretty damn awful ;)
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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12/19/2012 7:28:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And yet you still think this administration is benign and loves American people. Nope, no conspiracy here. No authoritarianism here. They want to disarm us, they want to indefinitely detain us, they have FEMA camps all over the country, they have Fusion Centers, theyre spying on us 24/7, they want to fly drones in your back yard, and theyre doing it all for your safety.


They're following Stalin and Hitlers footsteps by accident. Whoops, we took all your rights. Yeah, whoops.

"The decision by the NDAA conference committee, led by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to strip the National Defense Authorization Act of the amendment that protects American citizens against indefinite detention now renders the entire NDAA unconstitutional," Sen. Paul said.

Well, the "Indefinite Detention" has a very long history:
Hamdan v. Rumsfeld: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Hamdi v. Rumsfeld: http://en.wikipedia.org...

It is a part of War on terror.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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12/19/2012 8:37:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:53:41 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:24:09 PM, Oryus wrote:
Well, I will see your nerdiness and raise you a personal experience of being indefinitely detained without charges. It's pretty damn awful ;)

I would very much like to hear that story, either here or in a private message.

You can shoot me a PM next you're online.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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12/19/2012 9:39:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:28:18 PM, TheElderScroll wrote:
And yet you still think this administration is benign and loves American people. Nope, no conspiracy here. No authoritarianism here. They want to disarm us, they want to indefinitely detain us, they have FEMA camps all over the country, they have Fusion Centers, theyre spying on us 24/7, they want to fly drones in your back yard, and theyre doing it all for your safety.


They're following Stalin and Hitlers footsteps by accident. Whoops, we took all your rights. Yeah, whoops.

"The decision by the NDAA conference committee, led by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to strip the National Defense Authorization Act of the amendment that protects American citizens against indefinite detention now renders the entire NDAA unconstitutional," Sen. Paul said.

Well, the "Indefinite Detention" has a very long history:
Hamdan v. Rumsfeld: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Hamdi v. Rumsfeld: http://en.wikipedia.org...

It is a part of War on terror.

Yes. But, Hamdan v. Rumsfeld held that the Geneva Conventions were violated. And Hamdi v Rumsfeld held that US Citizens had the full right to challenge their detainment. Just saying that the Supreme Court has already ruled it unconstitutional. It may have a long history, but it has already been shown to be unconstitutional.
YYW
Posts: 36,296
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12/19/2012 10:36:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 8:37:37 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:53:41 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:24:09 PM, Oryus wrote:
Well, I will see your nerdiness and raise you a personal experience of being indefinitely detained without charges. It's pretty damn awful ;)

I would very much like to hear that story, either here or in a private message.

You can shoot me a PM next you're online.

If you're amenable to the idea, I'd actually like to hear this too.
Tsar of DDO