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Teachers Carrying Guns

royalpaladin
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12/20/2012 6:12:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Gun violence in schools is a relatively new phenomenon insofar as it first began in the 1700s, when teachers and students used guns in school. Sometimes school personnel even murdered students.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, let's have more guns in school. The guns always deterred the criminals

/sarcasm.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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12/20/2012 6:59:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
We've yet to have armed teachers in schools.

Note: In all the school shootings, nobody in the school had a gun. Ever. Or, if they did, the shooter killed them first, or they were unable to stop them in time because it was one person.

Seems pretty obvious the solution to me.

Course, your under the assumption that teachers are all wannabe mass murderers, that will jump at the chance to kill their students.
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OberHerr
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12/20/2012 7:00:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
And really, new? Yeah, it's new in that it's been around since before the founding of this country.......
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Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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12/20/2012 7:05:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 6:12:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Gun violence in schools is a relatively new phenomenon insofar as it first began in the 1700s, when teachers and students used guns in school. Sometimes school personnel even murdered students.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, let's have more guns in school. The guns always deterred the criminals

/sarcasm.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net...
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/20/2012 7:06:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 7:00:22 AM, OberHerr wrote:
And really, new? Yeah, it's new in that it's been around since before the founding of this country.......

That was the point.
royalpaladin
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12/20/2012 7:06:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 6:59:13 AM, OberHerr wrote:
We've yet to have armed teachers in schools.

Note: In all the school shootings, nobody in the school had a gun. Ever. Or, if they did, the shooter killed them first, or they were unable to stop them in time because it was one person.

See the examples I provided in the link.
Seems pretty obvious the solution to me.

Course, your under the assumption that teachers are all wannabe mass murderers, that will jump at the chance to kill their students.
royalpaladin
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12/20/2012 7:07:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 7:05:36 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 12/20/2012 6:12:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Gun violence in schools is a relatively new phenomenon insofar as it first began in the 1700s, when teachers and students used guns in school. Sometimes school personnel even murdered students.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, let's have more guns in school. The guns always deterred the criminals

/sarcasm.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net...

Please explain why not only did the armed teachers not prevent tragedy from the 1700s to the 1970s/1960s (not sure when it was banned), but why they also participated in the violence.
royalpaladin
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12/20/2012 7:08:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
You can try to make this out to be some sort of logical claim, but the fact of the matter is that history is on my side. You cannot pretend that what happened in the past never happened.
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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12/20/2012 7:28:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 7:07:23 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/20/2012 7:05:36 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 12/20/2012 6:12:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Gun violence in schools is a relatively new phenomenon insofar as it first began in the 1700s, when teachers and students used guns in school. Sometimes school personnel even murdered students.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, let's have more guns in school. The guns always deterred the criminals

/sarcasm.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net...

Please explain why not only did the armed teachers not prevent tragedy from the 1700s to the 1970s/1960s (not sure when it was banned), but why they also participated in the violence.

In most of those cases, the teacher was shot and/or had no gun with them. The teacher violence is very low. You miss the fact that there are numerous cases where armed citizens have stopped masacres:

A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.
A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.
A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.
A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.
A 2007 mall shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.
A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.
A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.
At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

For several years after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, gun prohibitionists blocked pilots from carrying firearms. But after it became undeniable that guns are an essential line of defense against hijackers and other terrorists when the lives of innocent passengers are at stake, Congress finally passed legislation allowing it.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
royalpaladin
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12/20/2012 7:34:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 7:28:24 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 12/20/2012 7:07:23 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/20/2012 7:05:36 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 12/20/2012 6:12:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Gun violence in schools is a relatively new phenomenon insofar as it first began in the 1700s, when teachers and students used guns in school. Sometimes school personnel even murdered students.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, let's have more guns in school. The guns always deterred the criminals

/sarcasm.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net...

Please explain why not only did the armed teachers not prevent tragedy from the 1700s to the 1970s/1960s (not sure when it was banned), but why they also participated in the violence.

In most of those cases, the teacher was shot and/or had no gun with them
Ok, so? Armed teachers can't be shot today?
. The teacher violence is very low. You miss the fact that there are numerous cases where armed citizens have stopped masacres:

I'm sure there are. That wasn't my argument. I simply claimed that giving teachers guns does not stop violence in general. For every example you have of teachers stopping it, I can give multiple examples of teachers causing it.

I don't want guns in schools. I don't care if people generally have them, but it's nonsense to let them enter school buildings.
A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.
A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.
A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.
A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.
A 2007 mall shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.
A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.
A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.
At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

For several years after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, gun prohibitionists blocked pilots from carrying firearms. But after it became undeniable that guns are an essential line of defense against hijackers and other terrorists when the lives of innocent passengers are at stake, Congress finally passed legislation allowing it.

Again, I'm not in favor of gun control in general; I just don't want them in schools. The Wikipedia page has at least 16 times the amount of examples that you listed that confirm that teachers have been violent since the 1700s.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/20/2012 8:01:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think having armed teachers brings an entirely different meaning and significance to corporal punishment. Having the knowledge that your teacher is easily capable of using deadly force is not conducive to learning.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
16kadams
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12/20/2012 8:55:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Actually the link said in the mid 1800s. And after the gun free zone act there is a spike of activity on your list.

And many states allow guns on campus and have few problems.

http://www.scribd.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/20/2012 9:08:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 8:55:38 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Actually the link said in the mid 1800s.
No, it lists school shootings starting from the 1700s.
And after the gun free zone act there is a spike of activity on your list.

False. The article explicitly says this: According to the National School Safety Center, since the 1992-1993 U.S. school year there has been a significant decline in school-associated violent deaths (deaths on private or public school property for kindergarten through grade 12 and resulting from schools functions or activities):[39]

You should read sources before you comment on them like this.

Also, keep in mind that it's difficult to obtain information about local events from that time. Not all towns had newspapers, not all newspapers survived, etc. So, the recording could just be better later in time than it was before.
And many states allow guns on campus and have few problems.

http://www.scribd.com...

They have more crime
inferno
Posts: 10,689
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12/20/2012 9:45:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 6:12:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Gun violence in schools is a relatively new phenomenon insofar as it first began in the 1700s, when teachers and students used guns in school. Sometimes school personnel even murdered students.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, let's have more guns in school. The guns always deterred the criminals

/sarcasm.

This may work to some degree in certain situations. But overall, it does not eradicate the problem.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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12/20/2012 1:09:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 8:01:46 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
I think having armed teachers brings an entirely different meaning and significance to corporal punishment. Having the knowledge that your teacher is easily capable of using deadly force is not conducive to learning.

Haha yes, because when a kid cuts up in class the teacher will now shoot him rather send him to the principals office.
Kids won't even know which teachers are armed.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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12/20/2012 1:19:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The fact is that these shootings that make the news aren't done by those with concealed carry and aren't in places where someone with concealed carry can confront them.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
bossyburrito
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12/20/2012 1:26:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 7:05:36 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 12/20/2012 6:12:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Gun violence in schools is a relatively new phenomenon insofar as it first began in the 1700s, when teachers and students used guns in school. Sometimes school personnel even murdered students.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, let's have more guns in school. The guns always deterred the criminals

/sarcasm.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net...

Are you against the Death Penalty? I can't remember.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
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bossyburrito
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12/20/2012 1:27:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://en.m.wikipedia.org...
Most or all of the above were stopped because the police actively did their job. That's all there is to it.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
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lewis20
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12/20/2012 2:35:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think we can all agree Peirs Morgan is a hack. If you've seen his interviews on gun control his conduct and argument s would make members of ddo blush. He repeatedly called a moderately respectful guest an idiot and declared, not implied, but declared that the guest was happy these kids got killed.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
OberHerr
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12/20/2012 2:58:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In the past woman also weren't allowed to vote, and blacks were slaves.

Saying that simple because there was a couple rare cases of school violence by teachers, before background checks for guns and mental checks, that it applies today is so fallacious......
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/20/2012 3:00:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 6:12:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Gun violence in schools is a relatively new phenomenon insofar as it first began in the 1700s, when teachers and students used guns in school.
Is this when guns became commonplace?

Sometimes school personnel even murdered students.
Very rarely.
In fact, children have been known to kill their parents since 1893, so parents should constantly live in fear of their children, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, let's have more guns in school. The guns always deterred the criminals

Since most of the killings I read had specific targets, if the murderer wanted the person dead, they would likely have found a way, whether a gun, knife, or even beating them to death. The wiki article did state "The majority of attacks during this time period [pre-1900] by students on other students or teachers usually involved stabbing with knives or hitting with stones".


/sarcasm.

I made it through the 1950s and I think there was only three incidents were a teacher killed a student.

One was an accidental discharge that allegedly occured when the student struck the gun (drawn for defense) with the rod he had wrestled away from the teacher.

One was a man on a rampage that killed his family, burned his property, bombed the school, and bombed his car with him inside.

I am adding one in case I forgot.

Every other case of shootings that occured in school at the hands of faculty were directed at faculty, generally spurned lovers. Furthermore, it appears that most school shootings in general are specific targets.

If teachers had guns, they may be able to protect the students, other faculty, or even themselves from other students or faculty.
My work here is, finally, done.
OberHerr
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12/20/2012 3:02:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am glad though Royal, that your whole speel was suppose to be sarcastic.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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bossyburrito
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12/20/2012 3:12:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 2:58:23 PM, OberHerr wrote:
In the past woman also weren't allowed to vote, and blacks were slaves.

Saying that simple because there was a couple rare cases of school violence by teachers, before background checks for guns and mental checks, that it applies today is so fallacious......

Another thing to note is that they didn't have these reliable guns that are easy to use in the 1800's.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
bossyburrito
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12/20/2012 3:13:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 2:58:23 PM, OberHerr wrote:
In the past woman also weren't allowed to vote, and blacks were slaves.

Saying that simple because there was a couple rare cases of school violence by teachers, before background checks for guns and mental checks, that it applies today is so fallacious......

Also, if a teacher wanted a gun today he will ignore the laws, right? Isn't that the most common anti gun control argument?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
lewis20
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12/20/2012 3:15:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 3:13:18 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 12/20/2012 2:58:23 PM, OberHerr wrote:
In the past woman also weren't allowed to vote, and blacks were slaves.

Saying that simple because there was a couple rare cases of school violence by teachers, before background checks for guns and mental checks, that it applies today is so fallacious......

Also, if a teacher wanted a gun today he will ignore the laws, right? Isn't that the most common anti gun control argument?

Criminals get guns if they want one. Teachers aren't criminals.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
bossyburrito
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12/20/2012 3:16:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 3:15:07 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/20/2012 3:13:18 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 12/20/2012 2:58:23 PM, OberHerr wrote:
In the past woman also weren't allowed to vote, and blacks were slaves.

Saying that simple because there was a couple rare cases of school violence by teachers, before background checks for guns and mental checks, that it applies today is so fallacious......

Also, if a teacher wanted a gun today he will ignore the laws, right? Isn't that the most common anti gun control argument?

Criminals get guns if they want one. Teachers aren't criminals.

All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
DetectableNinja
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12/20/2012 3:18:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, one slightly more moderate alternative that may be done in Virginia that I saw on FOX News (yes, I watch occasionally, deal with it) is that schools will have the option of having someone on staff who IS armed, that has to go through the same process, training, testing, as regular police. Basically, having something similar to a rent-a-cop on hand.

To be honest, I'd rather see reforms (not necessarily governmental, but rather societal/in terms of mentality) about how we deal with mental illness. I personally think that the stigmatization of mental illness is definitely a major factor in provoking these violent events.

That being said, the Virginian solution, while I still don't completely agree with it, does seem like a more rational "arming solution."
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lewis20
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12/20/2012 3:19:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 3:12:11 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 12/20/2012 2:58:23 PM, OberHerr wrote:
In the past woman also weren't allowed to vote, and blacks were slaves.

Saying that simple because there was a couple rare cases of school violence by teachers, before background checks for guns and mental checks, that it applies today is so fallacious......

Another thing to note is that they didn't have these reliable guns that are easy to use in the 1800's.

By the mid to late 1800s they did. Lever action, single action, belt fed and cartidges were all invented by then.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
bossyburrito
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12/20/2012 3:20:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 3:18:41 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Well, one slightly more moderate alternative that may be done in Virginia that I saw on FOX News (yes, I watch occasionally, deal with it) is that schools will have the option of having someone on staff who IS armed, that has to go through the same process, training, testing, as regular police. Basically, having something similar to a rent-a-cop on hand.

To be honest, I'd rather see reforms (not necessarily governmental, but rather societal/in terms of mentality) about how we deal with mental illness. I personally think that the stigmatization of mental illness is definitely a major factor in provoking these violent events.
A lot of these shooters see the body count as kind of a "leaderboard" kind of thing.
That being said, the Virginian solution, while I still don't completely agree with it, does seem like a more rational "arming solution."
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
bossyburrito
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12/20/2012 3:22:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/20/2012 3:19:11 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/20/2012 3:12:11 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 12/20/2012 2:58:23 PM, OberHerr wrote:
In the past woman also weren't allowed to vote, and blacks were slaves.

Saying that simple because there was a couple rare cases of school violence by teachers, before background checks for guns and mental checks, that it applies today is so fallacious......

Another thing to note is that they didn't have these reliable guns that are easy to use in the 1800's.

By the mid to late 1800s they did. Lever action, single action, belt fed and cartidges were all invented by then.

1. How expensive were they?
2. How common were they?
3. How good would they be in the scenario of killing more than three people?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush