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Fair Share nonsense

Khaos_Mage
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12/26/2012 10:25:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Does it anger you as much as it does me when people, especially politicians, say the rich should pay their fair share?

I understand that the rich can afford to pay more a higher percent of income than they currently do, but what, exactly is their "fair share"?
Why are there so many people who pay no taxes, or even get paid (tax credits and/or welfare), without paying their "fair share"?

What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/26/2012 10:37:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 10:28:50 PM, darkkermit wrote:
if you say something long enough, eventually people believe it to be true.

I suppose that's true, but are people really so intellectually lazy or stupid that no one stops and says, "I wonder what [fill in the political buzz word] actually means..."?

Specifically with taxes, people don't seem to know much about them. My dad actually believes the rich, in general, don't pay any taxes.
My work here is, finally, done.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".
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Lordknukle
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12/27/2012 10:29:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".

That's nice. Can you name me one person who doesn't pay any taxes through these methods?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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12/27/2012 10:37:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 10:29:19 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".

That's nice. Can you name me one person who doesn't pay any taxes through these methods?

My father. He works in Jersey, and lives there most of the time. They have no income tax. As Brian is English too, I'm guessing most people he has in mind are doing that. Also I believe vodaphone paid no tax for a while, but I was unsure and apathetic of the tax law which enabled that.
Lordknukle
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12/27/2012 10:38:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 10:37:33 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 12/27/2012 10:29:19 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".

That's nice. Can you name me one person who doesn't pay any taxes through these methods?

My father. He works in Jersey, and lives there most of the time. They have no income tax. As Brian is English too, I'm guessing most people he has in mind are doing that. Also I believe vodaphone paid no tax for a while, but I was unsure and apathetic of the tax law which enabled that.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Thaddeus
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12/27/2012 10:43:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 10:38:55 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/27/2012 10:37:33 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 12/27/2012 10:29:19 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".

That's nice. Can you name me one person who doesn't pay any taxes through these methods?

My father. He works in Jersey, and lives there most of the time. They have no income tax. As Brian is English too, I'm guessing most people he has in mind are doing that. Also I believe vodaphone paid no tax for a while, but I was unsure and apathetic of the tax law which enabled that.



Well you're so gay you have consensual sex with men and enjoy it.

On topic I actually believe tax avoidance (not evasion) is a good thing as it undermines the state.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/27/2012 10:44:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 10:37:33 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 12/27/2012 10:29:19 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".

That's nice. Can you name me one person who doesn't pay any taxes through these methods?

My father. He works in Jersey, and lives there most of the time. They have no income tax. As Brian is English too, I'm guessing most people he has in mind are doing that. Also I believe vodaphone paid no tax for a while, but I was unsure and apathetic of the tax law which enabled that.

Everything on DDO is through an American lense. Get your fvcking bullsh1t British politics on out of here. maybe if you guys could've gotten your sh1t together and kept your colonies, DDO could discuss British politics.
Open borders debate:
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/27/2012 10:46:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 10:44:42 AM, darkkermit wrote:
maybe if you guys could've gotten your sh1t together and kept your colonies
And brain cells, but that's another topic.
Thaddeus
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12/27/2012 10:47:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 10:44:42 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/27/2012 10:37:33 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 12/27/2012 10:29:19 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".

That's nice. Can you name me one person who doesn't pay any taxes through these methods?

My father. He works in Jersey, and lives there most of the time. They have no income tax. As Brian is English too, I'm guessing most people he has in mind are doing that. Also I believe vodaphone paid no tax for a while, but I was unsure and apathetic of the tax law which enabled that.

Everything on DDO is through an American lense. Get your fvcking bullsh1t British politics on out of here. maybe if you guys could've gotten your sh1t together and kept your colonies, DDO could discuss British politics.

I love how your Jersey is sh1t, and ours is great and your York is great and ours is sh1t.
brian_eggleston
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12/27/2012 10:50:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 10:44:42 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/27/2012 10:37:33 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 12/27/2012 10:29:19 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".

That's nice. Can you name me one person who doesn't pay any taxes through these methods?

My father. He works in Jersey, and lives there most of the time. They have no income tax. As Brian is English too, I'm guessing most people he has in mind are doing that. Also I believe vodaphone paid no tax for a while, but I was unsure and apathetic of the tax law which enabled that.

Everything on DDO is through an American lense. Get your fvcking bullsh1t British politics on out of here. maybe if you guys could've gotten your sh1t together and kept your colonies, DDO could discuss British politics.

He's not a very nice man, is he boys and girls?
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Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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12/27/2012 10:53:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 10:44:42 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Everything on DDO is through an American lense. Get your fvcking bullsh1t British politics on out of here. maybe if you guys could've gotten your sh1t together and kept your colonies, DDO could discuss British politics.

YOU SHUT UP. YOU SHUT UP NOW.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/27/2012 10:55:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://epltalk.com...
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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12/27/2012 11:13:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 11:08:36 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Fun fact: in opposition to common opinion, Brits have the healthiest teeth in the world: http://www.economist.com...

We are 4th in EU according to WHO report (which is top ten world wide)
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/27/2012 11:14:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 11:08:36 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Fun fact: in opposition to common opinion, Brits have the healthiest teeth in the world: http://www.economist.com...

pretty sure the opinion is that they have ugly teeth, not whether their teeth are healthy.

Remember my friends in high school, go for the girl with braces. She might seem hideous now and have a lisp, but that will change once the braces are removed and she'll become a hottie.
Open borders debate:
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Thaddeus
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12/27/2012 11:20:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 11:14:46 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/27/2012 11:08:36 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Fun fact: in opposition to common opinion, Brits have the healthiest teeth in the world: http://www.economist.com...

pretty sure the opinion is that they have ugly teeth, not whether their teeth are healthy.

Remember my friends in high school, go for the girl with braces. She might seem hideous now and have a lisp, but that will change once the braces are removed and she'll become a hottie.

We also get free braces from the NHS so...
Admittedly its pretty rare for Brits to use teeth whitener.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/27/2012 1:39:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 9:02:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Of course, this also depends on how you define "rich", but generally speaking, people who say that the rich should pay their "fair share" are referring to wealthy people who legally pay little or no tax by using loopholes in the law to transfer their income and assets either offshore or into a third party entities, or artificially offset "expenses" against their income in order to mitigate their liability to tax in a way that people who are taxed at source are unable to do.

I agree about your objection to the use of the term "middle class", by the way, at least in America. Hardly anyone there describes themselves as "working class" or "upper class".

The term rich doesn't bother me as much, but a fair point.

What you describe is what some people talk about, but others talk about it more like a penalty, citing how brackets used to be higher or how Warren Buffet paid a lower percent one year than his secretary. These people are saying the rich need to pay more, period. If they were concerned about "loopholes", they could close them, but that would hurt the middle class.

Also, people don't talk about the loopholes that poor people use to avoid paying taxes, like working under the table, collecting welfare, not getting married to avoid the penalty, or, in extreme cases, having children (which can be an effective $10,000+ deduction).

The double standard, and the vague descriptions, are what bother me.

Loopholes are not loopholes, generally, as it was their purpose to be used in such a manner. Hiding money off-shore and not reporting it (and likely not being caught) is a loophole, and it is illegal. But, charity deductions, property tax deductions (double taxation), or green energy credits are not loopholes, in my opinion.
My work here is, finally, done.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,788
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12/27/2012 1:48:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 10:25:10 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Does it anger you as much as it does me when people, especially politicians, say the rich should pay their fair share?

I understand that the rich can afford to pay more a higher percent of income than they currently do, but what, exactly is their "fair share"?
Why are there so many people who pay no taxes, or even get paid (tax credits and/or welfare), without paying their "fair share"?

What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.

This is a Great thread idea.

I have often wondered why a person is expected to pay more (in taxes) just because they make more.

If Steve Forbes was in line behind me in a grocery store and we both had the same items in our carts, no-one would expect him to pay more than anyone else does for those same items. Yet, more than half the people in the store would think his tax burden for running the country should be.

I ask myself, "what right do I have to use the powers of the government to take more money from him than he has to take from me?"

SMH
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/27/2012 2:00:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 1:48:09 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 12/26/2012 10:25:10 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Does it anger you as much as it does me when people, especially politicians, say the rich should pay their fair share?

I understand that the rich can afford to pay more a higher percent of income than they currently do, but what, exactly is their "fair share"?
Why are there so many people who pay no taxes, or even get paid (tax credits and/or welfare), without paying their "fair share"?

What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.

This is a Great thread idea.

I have often wondered why a person is expected to pay more (in taxes) just because they make more.

If Steve Forbes was in line behind me in a grocery store and we both had the same items in our carts, no-one would expect him to pay more than anyone else does for those same items. Yet, more than half the people in the store would think his tax burden for running the country should be.

I ask myself, "what right do I have to use the powers of the government to take more money from him than he has to take from me?"

SMH

What is SMH? Your initals or internet short hand?

Personally, I prefer the progressive income tax, as I think the more money you make, the more reason you have to protect the country, through immigration policies, national defense, courts, police, etc. Basicly, it is kind of like an insurance policy. Obviously, how progressive the code should be is open to debate.

I just hate the double standard and "fair share" arguments. My governor that was elected ran on this idea, stating that, because property and sales taxes are regressive, the rich pay less as percent than you do. This is a rediculous idea, as exemplified by you. Unless you think that Forbes should pay 20% sales tax on his purchase while you pay the 7%, it is a stupid argument that people parrot. If you, the working poor, don't like paying 60% of your income in taxes, don't have a brand new BMW in the driveway.
My work here is, finally, done.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/27/2012 2:12:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As a liberal, this fair share argument get on my nerves as well. It seems to work politically because it sounds good to those who don't know better, but if we want to fix our problems we need a much more constructive dialog then that.

I agree that we should allow the Bush tax cuts expire for the top 2% but Obama makes it sound like we should do so just because they can afford it, which is a stupid message. The country is in a serious hole, so the question is about which is the best way to get us out of it. To balance the budget the poor and middle classes will have to make sacrifices, that is inevitable. I believe the wealthy should share in that sacrifice.
Khaos_Mage
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12/27/2012 2:32:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 2:12:25 PM, Double_R wrote:
As a liberal, this fair share argument get on my nerves as well. It seems to work politically because it sounds good to those who don't know better, but if we want to fix our problems we need a much more constructive dialog then that.
Agreed. It scores rhetoric points and little else.

I agree that we should allow the Bush tax cuts expire for the top 2% but Obama makes it sound like we should do so just because they can afford it, which is a stupid message. The country is in a serious hole, so the question is about which is the best way to get us out of it. To balance the budget the poor and middle classes will have to make sacrifices, that is inevitable. I believe the wealthy should share in that sacrifice.

I generally agree. What bothers me about Obama is he said a while back (don't remember when) that we will all need to make sacrifices, and now, it seems that only the rich should. I have a problem with that.

Personally, I like where the Bush tax code is, I think it is fair (would be open to capital gains negotiations and dividends should be taxed as normal income). I would not be opposed to dialing it back to the Clinton era tax code (letting the Bush/Obama tax cuts expire for all) for the explicit purpose of paying down the debt. Once the debt is under control, we roll it back to the Bush rates, without the Obama stimuli.

I don't see why the poor/middle class should avoid the hit, when they benefited from these cuts as well.
My work here is, finally, done.
Chuz-Life
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12/27/2012 3:00:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 2:00:06 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/27/2012 1:48:09 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 12/26/2012 10:25:10 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Does it anger you as much as it does me when people, especially politicians, say the rich should pay their fair share?

I understand that the rich can afford to pay more a higher percent of income than they currently do, but what, exactly is their "fair share"?
Why are there so many people who pay no taxes, or even get paid (tax credits and/or welfare), without paying their "fair share"?

What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.

This is a Great thread idea.

I have often wondered why a person is expected to pay more (in taxes) just because they make more.

If Steve Forbes was in line behind me in a grocery store and we both had the same items in our carts, no-one would expect him to pay more than anyone else does for those same items. Yet, more than half the people in the store would think his tax burden for running the country should be.

I ask myself, "what right do I have to use the powers of the government to take more money from him than he has to take from me?"

SMH

What is SMH? Your initals or internet short hand?


SMH = "shaking my head"
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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12/27/2012 3:18:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 10:25:10 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Does it anger you as much as it does me when people, especially politicians, say the rich should pay their fair share?

I understand that the rich can afford to pay more a higher percent of income than they currently do, but what, exactly is their "fair share"?
Why are there so many people who pay no taxes, or even get paid (tax credits and/or welfare), without paying their "fair share"?

What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.

In order to have economic freedom and fair competition, the government should create an environment where everyone has a good chance to succeed if they work hard. In the USA the rich are really rich, and can accumulate more wealth even if they are stupid or lazy. Whereas, even the smartest, hardworking poor have a low chance of success. In order to increase economic freedom and economic mobility, more tax revenue is needed from the rich, to go to programs that push the country forward.
Khaos_Mage
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12/27/2012 7:06:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 3:18:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 12/26/2012 10:25:10 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Does it anger you as much as it does me when people, especially politicians, say the rich should pay their fair share?

I understand that the rich can afford to pay more a higher percent of income than they currently do, but what, exactly is their "fair share"?
Why are there so many people who pay no taxes, or even get paid (tax credits and/or welfare), without paying their "fair share"?

What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.

In order to have economic freedom and fair competition, the government should create an environment where everyone has a good chance to succeed if they work hard. In the USA the rich are really rich, and can accumulate more wealth even if they are stupid or lazy. Whereas, even the smartest, hardworking poor have a low chance of success. In order to increase economic freedom and economic mobility, more tax revenue is needed from the rich, to go to programs that push the country forward.

So, twocupcakes, what is their fair share? Why are the poor exempt from their fair share?
I do appreciate your commentary, but you did not address the main point.

On a side note, I disagree with your characterization of the poor and your premise of tax revenue = progress, but that can be discussed at a later time.
My work here is, finally, done.
TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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12/27/2012 7:07:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.

It is about the average tax rate. So for many, fair share means fair tax system.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/27/2012 7:29:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 7:07:13 PM, TheElderScroll wrote:
What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.

It is about the average tax rate. So for many, fair share means fair tax system.

Are you saying Fair Tax, or a fair tax system? I don't see what is unfair about the current system.
My work here is, finally, done.
TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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12/27/2012 7:47:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 7:29:38 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/27/2012 7:07:13 PM, TheElderScroll wrote:
What is one's fair share?

P.S. "Middle Class" is another term that irritates me to no end.

It is about the average tax rate. So for many, fair share means fair tax system.

Are you saying Fair Tax, or a fair tax system? I don't see what is unfair about the current system.

I mean a fair tax system.
As for the current system:
Here is how the Heritage Foundation puts it:
The current tax system is too complex, it penalizes productive work, and it gives unfair advantages to people with political influence. Our reforms make the system simple and fair while encouraging people to save and invest.
http://www.savingthedream.org...

Brookings
Taxes provide the revenue that finances government programs at all levels, with income and payroll taxes the largest federal revenue sources. Under the graduated tax system in the United States, those with larger incomes generally are taxed at higher rates than those with lower, but special tax breaks and loopholes can create complexity and inequity.
http://www.brookings.edu...