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Can anarchists be friends with statists?

OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 11:11:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I was reading Stefan Molyneux on how to interact w/ statists and his relationship to them:

"I do think that it is important to talk to a statist patiently and with curiosity, and help him to understand that when he wishes to use government to achieve his ends, he is advocating the initiation of force against you...If people are willing to reject the use of violence in dealing with others, I think that is wonderful!

I don"t think that it is particularly honorable to remain "friends" with someone who is unwilling to renounce the use of violence against you, but that is everyone"s decision to make of course""

http://www.fdrliberated.com...

He wouldn't be friends with the genuine statist. Are other anarchists or libertarians this hostile towards statists? By statists I mean intelligent, well-read statists who are perfectly aware that they are supporting the use of coercion in maintaining the state.

If this doesn't apply to you - how do you perceive others who have different political ideologies from you?
bossyburrito
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1/6/2013 11:14:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I really wouldn't mind.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Mirza
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1/6/2013 11:29:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
How sad if an anarchist doesn't want to be your friend. Clearly end of the world.

Nonetheless. If any of my friends became anarchists I wouldn't care.
Mirza
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1/6/2013 11:30:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 11:29:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
Nonetheless. If any of my friends became anarchists I wouldn't care.
Because if they scream "We'll have anarchy!!" I'll just say "Muslim immigration my friend!" :D
OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 11:33:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 11:29:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
How sad if an anarchist doesn't want to be your friend. Clearly end of the world.

Nonetheless. If any of my friends became anarchists I wouldn't care.

Of course we wouldn't care, we'd just think they were silly. I'm saying that maybe for the anarchists it's a much more personal issue.
Stephen_Hawkins
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1/6/2013 11:39:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Basically, "if people disagree with your analysis, then don't talk to them again" is the argument at work.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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DetectableNinja
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1/6/2013 12:37:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well....duh.

I didn't know it was commonplace to effectively shun people who disagree with you.

I'm friends with almost no libertarians or anarchists. The vast majority of my friend circle is made up of liberals and socialists.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

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OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 12:39:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 11:39:36 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Basically, "if people disagree with your analysis, then don't talk to them again" is the argument at work.

Could you be friends with a Nazi?
DetectableNinja
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1/6/2013 12:40:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To answer the second question, I'm a person who's naturally averse to upsetting others/personal argumentation.

I honestly just keep my mouth shut, unless I'm on very good terms with someone.

To be honest, I think it's a little cuckoo to think that a statist is totes okay with the state specifically using force on YOU. And it's even weirder to be offended.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
bossyburrito
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1/6/2013 12:41:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:39:04 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 11:39:36 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Basically, "if people disagree with your analysis, then don't talk to them again" is the argument at work.

Could you be friends with a Nazi?

Yes.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
DetectableNinja
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1/6/2013 12:42:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Really, the simplest answer I can give is this: There are way more important things to me than ideology.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 12:43:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:42:10 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Really, the simplest answer I can give is this: There are way more important things to me than ideology.

Like what? Whether a friend tells good jokes?
DetectableNinja
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1/6/2013 12:46:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:43:45 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:42:10 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Really, the simplest answer I can give is this: There are way more important things to me than ideology.

Like what? Whether a friend tells good jokes?

No. Although that doesn't hurt.

Things like that they aren't arrogant/annoying, they, for the most part, are respectful, common interests, etc.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 12:53:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:46:29 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:43:45 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:42:10 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Really, the simplest answer I can give is this: There are way more important things to me than ideology.

Like what? Whether a friend tells good jokes?

No. Although that doesn't hurt.

Things like that they aren't arrogant/annoying, they, for the most part, are respectful, common interests, etc.

I'm always interested to know people's deepest beliefs, because without those I can't ever fully know them. The friendship remains shallow. Of course I'd be friends with someone with different metaphysical beliefs than me, but if they're radically different I'd be tempted to say that there'd be an insurmountable difference in our ability to ever fully connect as friends.
darkkermit
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1/6/2013 1:04:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Since over 99.99% of the population consists of statists, then that's a really sad state of affairs for him. Perhaps there's a "find a local anarchist" group he can find.

I'm also curious if he doesn't like non-ancap anarchist (mutalists, anarcho-syndicates, and so forth). Most ancaps seem to be very hostile towards mutalists and other left-wing anarchy theories.
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DetectableNinja
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1/6/2013 1:06:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:53:17 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:46:29 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:43:45 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:42:10 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Really, the simplest answer I can give is this: There are way more important things to me than ideology.

Like what? Whether a friend tells good jokes?

No. Although that doesn't hurt.

Things like that they aren't arrogant/annoying, they, for the most part, are respectful, common interests, etc.

I'm always interested to know people's deepest beliefs, because without those I can't ever fully know them. The friendship remains shallow. Of course I'd be friends with someone with different metaphysical beliefs than me, but if they're radically different I'd be tempted to say that there'd be an insurmountable difference in our ability to ever fully connect as friends.

I think that there's a difference between knowing a person's beliefs, and agreeing with them.

I also think there's a HUGE difference between agreeing with a person's deepest beliefs, and accepting/coming to terms with them.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 1:11:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 1:04:51 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Since over 99.99% of the population consists of statists, then that's a really sad state of affairs for him. Perhaps there's a "find a local anarchist" group he can find.

I'm also curious if he doesn't like non-ancap anarchist (mutalists, anarcho-syndicates, and so forth). Most ancaps seem to be very hostile towards mutalists and other left-wing anarchy theories.

I meant the real statists, a lot of the population just doesn't engage these kind of questions on a regular basis. What I'm really getting at is the role of ideology in friendship. Most people won't be friends with Nazis, but communism seems to be sort of a grey area. I'm talking if an anarchist sat down and held a length discussion where an intelligent statist openly - maybe even proudly - laid out the ways he believes initiating coercion against you is justified.

I don't know whether you'd care because you're a nihilist, but there are people on here who I think would take SM's stance seriously. Even if we don't like to admit it, we all tend to take into account ideology in friendships. No one cares if it's defended poorly, but if someone has seriously deliberated and come out the anti-you, well, things can be a little grimy.
OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 1:20:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 1:06:36 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:53:17 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:46:29 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:43:45 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:42:10 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Really, the simplest answer I can give is this: There are way more important things to me than ideology.

Like what? Whether a friend tells good jokes?

No. Although that doesn't hurt.

Things like that they aren't arrogant/annoying, they, for the most part, are respectful, common interests, etc.

I'm always interested to know people's deepest beliefs, because without those I can't ever fully know them. The friendship remains shallow. Of course I'd be friends with someone with different metaphysical beliefs than me, but if they're radically different I'd be tempted to say that there'd be an insurmountable difference in our ability to ever fully connect as friends.

I think that there's a difference between knowing a person's beliefs, and agreeing with them.

I also think there's a HUGE difference between agreeing with a person's deepest beliefs, and accepting/coming to terms with them.

Yes, there is a difference between knowledge of a person's beliefs and agreeing with them.

Yeah, but clearly you draw the line somewhere. Would you be friends with ardent communists? Nazis? homophobes? I sometimes have this problem with nihilists - I can see the justification behind their beliefs and I guess in some way understand the logic, but then there's the implications, i.e. is it only social order and self interest that keeps this person in line? What exactly is this person capable of?
bossyburrito
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1/6/2013 1:30:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The thing is that I pick friends based on personality. If I find a Nazi, he probably would have a personality that I don't like. Those kinds of ideologies attract people like that. If he was a nice Nazi, I wouldn't care.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 1:45:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 1:30:01 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
The thing is that I pick friends based on personality. If I find a Nazi, he probably would have a personality that I don't like. Those kinds of ideologies attract people like that. If he was a nice Nazi, I wouldn't care.

It's telling that you'd be willing to consider someone who supported the deaths of 11 million "undesirables" and desires a vehemently racist world order and genocide your "friend." I can't say I'm surprised though, you've never really struck me as an "ideas" kind of guy.
Franz_Reynard
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1/6/2013 1:50:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 11:11:52 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
By statists I mean intelligent, well-read statists who are perfectly aware that they are supporting the use of coercion in maintaining the state.

I'm sorry, but I still don't know what you mean? Are you referring to coercion in maintaining the state as opposed to the expectation that every member of the state will maintain the state without coercion?
bossyburrito
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1/6/2013 1:55:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 1:45:31 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 1:30:01 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
The thing is that I pick friends based on personality. If I find a Nazi, he probably would have a personality that I don't like. Those kinds of ideologies attract people like that. If he was a nice Nazi, I wouldn't care.

It's telling that you'd be willing to consider someone who supported the deaths of 11 million "undesirables" and desires a vehemently racist world order and genocide your "friend."
I wouldn't though. The point is that if there could be a Nazi that didn't support that then I could be his friend. It's not that he's a Nazi, it's that he supports genocide.
I can't say I'm surprised though, you've never really struck me as an "ideas" kind of guy.
What does that even mean?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 2:09:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 1:50:15 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/6/2013 11:11:52 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
By statists I mean intelligent, well-read statists who are perfectly aware that they are supporting the use of coercion in maintaining the state.

I'm sorry, but I still don't know what you mean? Are you referring to coercion in maintaining the state as opposed to the expectation that every member of the state will maintain the state without coercion?

Yes, coercion in maintaining the state.
Wnope
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1/6/2013 2:12:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
One of my best friends is an Evangelical Christian paleo-conservative.

If you can't be friends with someone simply because they hold a different belief from you, then the issue is likely that you're a narrow minded d*ck.
DetectableNinja
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1/6/2013 2:16:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think Bossy is on the right track, here in solving the conundrum. I think the reason why some ideologies are unacceptable is that they tend to manifest as extremely negative character traits or behaviors. For instance, Nazism will, in almost every case, point to a person who is, at core, extremely racist--a commonly undesirable trait for a friend.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Franz_Reynard
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1/6/2013 2:18:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 2:09:32 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 1:50:15 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/6/2013 11:11:52 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
By statists I mean intelligent, well-read statists who are perfectly aware that they are supporting the use of coercion in maintaining the state.

I'm sorry, but I still don't know what you mean? Are you referring to coercion in maintaining the state as opposed to the expectation that every member of the state will maintain the state without coercion?

Yes, coercion in maintaining the state.

I think that's a very misleading way of putting it. It suggests disenfranchisement or oppression, which is false in many cases.

Anyway, it would be silly to allow political perspectives to compromise a relationship, as politics are ultimately irrelevant.
Stephen_Hawkins
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1/6/2013 2:21:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:39:04 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 11:39:36 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Basically, "if people disagree with your analysis, then don't talk to them again" is the argument at work.

Could you be friends with a Nazi?

Yes. Would I want to take part in Jew burnings? No. What the Original article (and it seems you as well) think is that everything about a person can be summed up in a single word based on political ideology, and then make up the rest of their personality from that. Which is silly, foolish, and doomed to be wrong.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Wallstreetatheist
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1/6/2013 2:28:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm comfortable being friends with anyone, except for dumb people, unless they are hot, single girls.
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OMGJustinBieber
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1/6/2013 2:31:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 2:18:43 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/6/2013 2:09:32 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 1:50:15 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/6/2013 11:11:52 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
By statists I mean intelligent, well-read statists who are perfectly aware that they are supporting the use of coercion in maintaining the state.

I'm sorry, but I still don't know what you mean? Are you referring to coercion in maintaining the state as opposed to the expectation that every member of the state will maintain the state without coercion?

Yes, coercion in maintaining the state.

I think that's a very misleading way of putting it. It suggests disenfranchisement or oppression, which is false in many cases.

Anyway, it would be silly to allow political perspectives to compromise a relationship, as politics are ultimately irrelevant.

I think coercion is intrinsic to states. SM appears to have a serious moral objection against initiated coercion, so his statist friend isn't merely a political opponent, but also a moral degenerate.
quarterexchange
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1/6/2013 2:33:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Almost all of my friends are statists. But I'll admit a lot of them are Libertarians and Minarchists so they are easy to get along with.

With the ones that are liberal or conservative, I just don't talk politics with them that much, since it usually turns into a shouting match. There's a very clear difference in political and ideological intelligence between my Libertarian and Libera/Conservative/Moderate friends, and when we pick apart their arguments they get infuriated while we get frustrated.

For example, I was arguing with a friend of mine about whether the South was justified in seceding from the Union. And he said they weren't because, and I quote, "The South wasn't able to secede so they weren't justified in seceding".

Another time regarding the construction and maintaining of roads, another friend of mine said that the private companies shouldn't be allowed to build the roads because, and I quote, "Then we would have to pay for them".

They are really smart people when it comes to school subjects, but I feel like they're loudmouthed idiots when it comes to politics. So I just avoid the issue.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.