Total Posts:22|Showing Posts:1-22
Jump to topic:

Death Penalty for Coerced Drug Trafficker

royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 5:59:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
BALI, Indonesia (AP) " An Indonesian court sentenced a British grandmother to death on Tuesday for smuggling cocaine worth $2.5 million in her suitcase onto the resort island of Bali " even though prosecutors had sought only a 15-year sentence.

Lindsay June Sandiford, 56, wept when judges handed down the sentence and declined to speak to reporters on her way back to prison, covering her face with a floral scarf. She had claimed in court that she was forced to take the drugs into the country by a gang that was threatening to hurt her children.

Indonesia, like many Asian countries, is very strict on drug crimes, and most of the more than 40 foreigners on its death row were convicted of drug charges.

Sandiford's lawyer said she would appeal, a process that can take several years. Condemned criminals face a firing squad in Indonesia, which has not carried out an execution since 2008, when 10 people were put to death.

A verdict is expected in the trial of Sandiford's alleged accomplice, Briton Julian Anthony Pounder, next Tuesday. He is accused of receiving the drugs in Bali, which has a busy bar and nightclub scene where party drugs such as cocaine and Ecstasy are bought and sold between foreigners. Two other British citizens and an Indian have already been convicted and sentenced to prison in connection with the bust.

In London, British Foreign Office Minister Hugo Swire told lawmakers Wednesday that the government strongly opposes Sandiford's sentence.

"We strongly object to the death penalty and continue to provide consular assistance to Lindsay and her family during this difficult time," he said.

Martin Horwood, a member of Parliament representing Sandiford's Cheltenham constituency in western England, called the sentence a shock and said he would raise the case with Foreign Secretary William Hague.

"The days of the death penalty ought to be past. This is not the way that a country that now values democracy and human rights should really be behaving," Horwood told the BBC.

Harriet McCulloch of human rights charity Reprieve, which is assisting Sandiford, urged the British government to support her appeal.

"Lindsay has always maintained that she only agreed to carry the package to Bali after receiving threats against the lives of her family," McCulloch said. "She is clearly not a drug kingpin " she has no money to pay for a lawyer, for the travel costs of defense witnesses or even for essentials like food and water."

In its verdict, a panel of Denpasar District Court judges concluded that Sandiford had damaged the image of Bali as a tourism destination and weakened the government's drug prevention program.

"We found no reason to lighten her sentence," said Amser Simanjuntak, who headed the judicial panel.

Prosecutors had been seeking a 15-year prison sentence for Sandiford, who was arrested in May when customs officers at Bali's airport discovered 3.8 kilograms (8.4 pounds) of cocaine in the lining of her luggage.

State prosecutor Lie Putra Setiawan told reporters that the verdict was "appropriate," explaining that prosecutors had been demanding 15 years because of Sandiford's age.

Indonesia has 114 prisoners on death row, according to a March 2012 study by Australia's Lowy Institute for International Policy. Five foreigners have been executed since 1998, all for drug crimes, according to the institute.

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has granted clemency to four drug offenders on death row since he took office in 2004.

The most publicized recent case internationally is that of Schapelle Corby, an Australian convicted of smuggling marijuana in 2005. Her 20-year sentence was reduced last year and she is now eligible for parole, but she remains imprisoned.

___

Associated Press writer Jill Lawless in London contributed to this report.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 6:01:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Imperialism was one of the ways to solve this, since Britain often requested extraterritoriality for its diplomats and the inability to be tried by local law for citizens.

Wink wink :).
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
tmar19652
Posts: 727
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 6:28:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
She did the crime, so what's wrong about the punishment. She should have thought about the consequences of smuggling drugs.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 6:50:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 6:28:35 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
She did the crime, so what's wrong about the punishment. She should have thought about the consequences of smuggling drugs.

When someone is coerced into committing a crime, she isn't considered culpable. The drug lords threatened her children.

The punishment is excessive. Death for drug trafficking? Really?

I'm seriously done with you. You're a big troll, and nothing more.
tmar19652
Posts: 727
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 6:54:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.

You graduated from MIT you say?
kfc
tmar19652
Posts: 727
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 6:56:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 6:54:26 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.

You graduated from MIT you say?

I did, why do you ask?
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
thett3
Posts: 14,348
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 7:58:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That's pretty fuckked up. Although, it's pretty annoying to see the British politicians slamming the death penalty instead of anti-drug statutes (which is the real issue)
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 7:59:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.

Drug traffickers don't ruin people's lives unless they commit additional crimes besides drug trafficking. Purchasing drugs is entirely consensual.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 8:00:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 7:58:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
That's pretty fuckked up. Although, it's pretty annoying to see the British politicians slamming the death penalty instead of anti-drug statutes (which is the real issue)

I'm not sure there are any countries that have legalized drugs.
tmar19652
Posts: 727
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 8:04:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 7:59:23 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.

Drug traffickers don't ruin people's lives unless they commit additional crimes besides drug trafficking. Purchasing drugs is entirely consensual.

I know that, and its entirely a personal choice, but it is a choice that could not be made without drug traffickers and dealers.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
thett3
Posts: 14,348
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 8:06:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 8:00:19 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 7:58:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
That's pretty fuckked up. Although, it's pretty annoying to see the British politicians slamming the death penalty instead of anti-drug statutes (which is the real issue)

I'm not sure there are any countries that have legalized drugs.

Which is quite unfortunate /:
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 8:18:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 8:04:15 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
At 1/22/2013 7:59:23 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.

Drug traffickers don't ruin people's lives unless they commit additional crimes besides drug trafficking. Purchasing drugs is entirely consensual.

I know that, and its entirely a personal choice, but it is a choice that could not be made without drug traffickers and dealers.

Ok, so?
tmar19652
Posts: 727
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 8:20:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 8:18:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 8:04:15 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
At 1/22/2013 7:59:23 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.

Drug traffickers don't ruin people's lives unless they commit additional crimes besides drug trafficking. Purchasing drugs is entirely consensual.

I know that, and its entirely a personal choice, but it is a choice that could not be made without drug traffickers and dealers.

Ok, so?
They are criminals as much as those who consume the drugs.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 9:10:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 8:20:56 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
At 1/22/2013 8:18:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 8:04:15 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
At 1/22/2013 7:59:23 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.

Drug traffickers don't ruin people's lives unless they commit additional crimes besides drug trafficking. Purchasing drugs is entirely consensual.

I know that, and its entirely a personal choice, but it is a choice that could not be made without drug traffickers and dealers.

Ok, so?
They are criminals as much as those who consume the drugs.

Criminals are people who break laws. I don't care if somebody is a criminal. People who helped fugitive slaves in the 1800s were criminals. I care about whether or not the individual is morally culpable, and she clearly is not. Drug use is a personal choice.
BigRat
Posts: 465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 9:11:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 9:10:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 8:20:56 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
At 1/22/2013 8:18:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 8:04:15 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
At 1/22/2013 7:59:23 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 6:52:40 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
Why did she not go to the police? Also, drug traffickers are the lowest of the low, not only do they partake in illegal activity, but they ruin peoples lives too. They rank right with rapists and murderers.

Drug traffickers don't ruin people's lives unless they commit additional crimes besides drug trafficking. Purchasing drugs is entirely consensual.

I know that, and its entirely a personal choice, but it is a choice that could not be made without drug traffickers and dealers.

Ok, so?
They are criminals as much as those who consume the drugs.

Criminals are people who break laws. I don't care if somebody is a criminal. People who helped fugitive slaves in the 1800s were criminals. I care about whether or not the individual is morally culpable, and she clearly is not. Drug use is a personal choice.

I agree. When judging someone, you cannot just look at how they fare under the state's definition of morality. You have to judge them based on what you, as an individual, think is moral and not moral.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 9:35:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 8:20:56 PM, tmar19652 wrote:

They are criminals as much as those who consume the drugs.

They are criminals only because the state says they are. It's not as though they are violating anybody else's rights.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 10:14:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If in a position to do so, I would either compel the Indonesian government to return the woman to the UK -where she would face smuggling charges- or send an extraction team to the prison where she is held. This would (1) demonstrate the west's proper objection to draconian laws while (2) articulating the willingness of western governments to protect its citizens against the recalcitrance of foreign governments. It is really of no consequence to me wether she was coerced or not because basic human rights are not lost at the crossing of international borders.

I would not offer the Indonesian government any sort of incentive for surrendering the woman either: the choice would be between cooperating or facing overwhelmingly severe consequences.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 10:17:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Edit. Gramatical error. Sorry.

If in a position to do so, I would either compel the Indonesian government to return the woman to the UK -where she would face smuggling charges- or send an extraction team to the prison where she is held. This would (1) demonstrate the west's proper objection to draconian laws while (2) articulating the willingness of western governments to protect their citizens from the recalcitrance of foreign governments. It is really of no consequence to me wether she was coerced or not because basic human rights are not lost at the crossing of international borders.
I would not offer the Indonesian government any sort of incentive for surrendering the woman either: the choice would be between cooperating or facing overwhelmingly severe consequences.
Tsar of DDO
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 10:21:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 8:00:19 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 7:58:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
That's pretty fuckked up. Although, it's pretty annoying to see the British politicians slamming the death penalty instead of anti-drug statutes (which is the real issue)

I'm not sure there are any countries that have legalized drugs.

Portugal.
kfc
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/22/2013 10:21:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 10:17:10 PM, YYW wrote:
Edit. Gramatical error. Sorry.

If in a position to do so, I would either compel the Indonesian government to return the woman to the UK -where she would face smuggling charges- or send an extraction team to the prison where she is held. This would (1) demonstrate the west's proper objection to draconian laws while (2) articulating the willingness of western governments to protect their citizens from the recalcitrance of foreign governments. It is really of no consequence to me wether she was coerced or not because basic human rights are not lost at the crossing of international borders. I would not offer the Indonesian government any sort of incentive for surrendering the woman either: the choice would be between cooperating or facing overwhelmingly severe consequences.

Also, I don't really care if the Indonesian government actually intends to execute the woman or not. Merely sentencing her to death, in my view, is sufficient to trigger -pun intended- what I'm describing. I also want to note that I see no moral distinction between the Indonesian government who sentences foreign nationals to death -for any reason- and Somali pirates who behead westerners who have the misfortune of traveling too close to the horn of Africa.
Tsar of DDO
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/23/2013 3:59:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2013 6:50:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2013 6:28:35 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
She did the crime, so what's wrong about the punishment. She should have thought about the consequences of smuggling drugs.

When someone is coerced into committing a crime, she isn't considered culpable. The drug lords threatened her children.

Assuming their laws our similar to ours, coersion is a defense. She appearantly failed in her defense. There is the possibility she is lying, you know.

The punishment is excessive. Death for drug trafficking? Really?
It is excessive, but that is also appearantly normal there. The article did say that much of Asia is cracking down on drugs, and offering severe punishments. Also, that most of the people on death row were for drug charges.

Effectively, is there really a difference between death and a 15 year sentence for one that old? Is the only reason a lesser sentance was sought was because of PR?
My work here is, finally, done.