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L is for Liberal.

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2009 5:04:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Out of curiosity, can anyone please tell me why there is such a dramatic characterization of me as a flaming liberal all of a sudden? I know Volkov's my running-mate (hehe) but that wasn't even my choice... Not that I wouldn't want to run with that wonderful gentleman, but Volkov's politics or POV are not incredibly similar to my own.

My stance on the Big Issues says that I'm CON affirmative action, estate tax, late term abortion, medicaid/medicare, national resales tax, social programs and welfare. Not to mention that I'm Pro on at least one of the wars, I'm in favor of school vouchers as opposed to public schools, and I'm a strong advocate of gun and tobacco rights amongst other right-leaning stances...

So how exactly does that make me a flaming liberal? Yes, I've been called one a lot recently. If you peruse the forums, people have been throwing this L word around me lately much more often than I'm comfortable with. It's not that I'm offended, but it's kind of annoying to be portrayed as something I'm not...? I mean, Cody IS a fascist (lol jk) -- He's very authoritarian though. Also, I'm NOT a pantheist. I'm really disappointed at the so-called intellectuals on this site who are being quick to judge simply because I expressed an interest in one deistic theory...? That's a little presumptuous, don't you think?

Anyway, the point is that I'd just like to invite everyone to actually hear out my beliefs instead of assuming I'm a liberal. In actuality, I side with Libertarian beliefs; however, I don't think our political atmosphere can sustain that ideology atm so I definitely consider myself a moderate. Regarding social issues (like gay marriage), I don't even think my stance there is "liberal" -- I think these are obvious issues of right and wrong lol at least in a LEGAL sense. And my opinion on things like legalizing pot and nationalizing health care isn't because I side with this liberal ideology, but because I have legitimate reasons for supporting these issues after weighing the pros and cons in addition to upholding my moral and political values.

By the way, it's funny that I'm such a flaming liberal to some, but others assume I'm this raging conservative capitalist (Have you seen my forum debates with 1-2-3? And Brian Eggleston called me Margaret Thatcher!). I mean, it's cool if you get your rocks off by stereotyping me as something that I'm not. I just hope you all don't actually believe it? Oh well - just clarifying :)
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JBlake
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10/28/2009 5:20:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:04:56 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Regarding social issues (like gay marriage), I don't even think my stance there is "liberal" -- I think these are obvious issues of right and wrong lol at least in a LEGAL sense. And my opinion on things like legalizing pot and nationalizing health care isn't because I side with this liberal ideology, but because I have legitimate reasons for supporting these issues after weighing the pros and cons in addition to upholding my moral and political values.

That makes you 'Liberal' on social issues. How do you think that most liberals arrived at the same position as you on these issues? Contrary to what you seem to think, you are not the only person to consider the pros and cons of each issue before determining your stance.

I consider myself a firm progressive (which puts me in he leftist camp along with liberals). Yet I, too, am in favor of what has been claimed to be conservative position (though they are not): pro gun rights, pro secession rights, con affirmative action, &ct. Whether you want to admit it or not, you are somewhat of a leftist. I wouldn't go so far as to call you a raging liberal, though.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2009 5:24:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Ok, so say Ragnar and I have the same response to social issues. Why is he a Libertarian and me a Liberal? That doesn't make any sense. If you're saying that you're taking other factors into consideration then (like the economy), then clearly that doesn't hold either since only half of my economical issues are liberal (the other conservative). Also, I didn't mean to imply that nobody thinks about their stance on the issues. I just meant to say that I don't side with liberal social beliefs simply because they're liberal... if that makes sense.
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JBlake
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10/28/2009 5:24:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
As for your label as a pantheist, I seem to remember you at least once claiming directly that you are pantheist. I think even your profile once said pantheist. I could be mistaken.

If you say now that you just find it to be a very interesting theory worth more research... that's fine. Don't get mad at people for trying to categorize you. It is human nature to find patterns - to categorize.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2009 5:27:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:24:46 PM, JBlake wrote:
As for your label as a pantheist, I seem to remember you at least once claiming directly that you are pantheist. I think even your profile once said pantheist. I could be mistaken.

DDO doesn't even list Pantheist as a religion choice, so I highly doubt that. I've always said that I was interested in the ideology, and that if I HAD to categorize myself, mine atm would lean in that direction as opposed to any of the other choices.

If you say now that you just find it to be a very interesting theory worth more research... that's fine. Don't get mad at people for trying to categorize you. It is human nature to find patterns - to categorize.

Of course. I'm not mad. But suppose everyone called you a flaming fascist left and right. You might not get mad, but you'd be a little confused as to why, would you not?
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Danielle
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10/28/2009 5:28:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:24:21 PM, theLwerd wrote:

I just meant to say that I don't side with liberal social beliefs simply because they're liberal... if that makes sense.

See MistahKurtz's post to demonstrate exactly what my statement meant :)
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JBlake
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10/28/2009 5:31:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:24:21 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Ok, so say Ragnar and I have the same response to social issues. Why is he a Libertarian and me a Liberal? That doesn't make any sense. If you're saying that you're taking other factors into consideration then (like the economy), then clearly that doesn't hold either since only half of my economical issues are liberal (the other conservative).

Here is why Ragnar gets to be considered a firm libertarian:
Ragnar
Social issues: Libertarian
Fiscal issues: Libertarian

Lwerd
Social issues: libertarian
Fiscal issues: moderate/left leaning

Liberals
Social issues: moderate/Libertarian leaning
Fiscal issues: moderate/left leaning

Also, I didn't mean to imply that nobody thinks about their stance on the issues. I just meant to say that I don't side with liberal social beliefs simply because they're liberal... if that makes sense.

That statement does make sense. It is the same thing you said before. You are implying that typical liberals do not carefully consider each issue before making a decision on their position; that they fall in line with positions taken by other liberals. That just simply is not true. Perhaps for some, but not all. Of course, this holds true for all ideologies.
JBlake
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10/28/2009 5:34:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:27:03 PM, theLwerd wrote:
DDO doesn't even list Pantheist as a religion choice, so I highly doubt that. I've always said that I was interested in the ideology, and that if I HAD to categorize myself, mine atm would lean in that direction as opposed to any of the other choices.

Then I stand corrected. Obviously there was no profile claim. But I can easily see how I (and others around here) believed you were a pantheist. I think we all already changed our mind when you vehemently denied it on Volkov's thread.

Of course. I'm not mad. But suppose everyone called you a flaming fascist left and right. You might not get mad, but you'd be a little confused as to why, would you not?

I wouldn't pay them any attention because they would either be joking or ignorant of my positions. :)
Danielle
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10/28/2009 5:34:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Nah. What I meant was that just because I'm gay, people would assume that I'm liberal... like MistahKurtz said. The same way people assume that blacks are democrats.
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crackofdawn_Jr
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10/28/2009 5:35:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:34:42 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Nah. What I meant was that just because I'm gay, people would assume that I'm liberal... like MistahKurtz said. The same way people assume that blacks are democrats.

Or (not to be racist) simply politically ignorant.
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Danielle
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10/28/2009 5:38:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Economic Issues:

Estate Tax: CON
Flat vs. Progressive Tax: PRO Progressive
Medicaid/Medicare: CON
Minimum Wage: N/O *
National Resales Tax: CON
School Vouchers: PRO
Social Programs: CON
Welfare: CON

So, I'm conservative on 3/4 of fiscal issues... that makes me moderately left-leaning? Hmm, okay.

* Minimum wage = No opinion because it's irrelevant. The wage just rises with inflation and helps to cause inflation simultaneously, so.
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Danielle
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10/28/2009 5:40:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Edit: I'm pro national health care, so make that fiscally conservative on 2/3 of the issues instead of 3/4. Also, regarding health care, I think it should only be for people who work 40 hours per week, or 20 hours for students. Free for minors and the handicapped or mentally ill. And by "free" you know what I mean :p
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Danielle
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10/28/2009 5:41:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:35:42 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:

Or (not to be racist) simply politically ignorant.

Very true.

Still, my point was that I didn't want people to assume that I'd be a liberal simply because of my "lifestyle."
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Danielle
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10/28/2009 5:46:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Also, I'd argue that my view on social issues is more Libertarian than Liberal. Why? Because I don't think abortion should be legal based on a liberal POV regarding morality, but rather my perspective on limited government -- especially when it comes to people's own person (body). The same applies to the legalization of drugs, and even things like gay marriage. As I've said a bunch of times, I actually agree with Ragnar that marriage should have nothing to do with the government... BUT, because it does, gays should be equal because government discrimination in that regard is wrong. Not because gays have the "right" to marry. So, if I'm socially Libertarian-ish, and 2/3 fiscally conservative, that makes me a flaming liberal? Okay - whatever you say :)
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JBlake
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10/28/2009 5:49:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:38:56 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Economic Issues:

Estate Tax: CON
Flat vs. Progressive Tax: PRO Progressive
Medicaid/Medicare: CON
Minimum Wage: N/O *
National Resales Tax: CON
School Vouchers: PRO
Social Programs: CON
Welfare: CON

So, I'm conservative on 3/4 of fiscal issues... that makes me moderately left-leaning? Hmm, okay.

* Minimum wage = No opinion because it's irrelevant. The wage just rises with inflation and helps to cause inflation simultaneously, so.

Those are not the only fiscal issues to consider. You ended up more to the left than I am on economic issue on the Political Compass. I presume it has to with the amount of regulation you prefer, but it could be a number of other things. It may be that you took the test long ago and your opinion ha since changed, and a retaking of the test would move you to the right. In which case, we have an answer as to why people think you are liberal (because you used to be).
Danielle
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10/28/2009 5:56:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:49:00 PM, JBlake wrote:

Those are not the only fiscal issues to consider. You ended up more to the left than I am on economic issue on the Political Compass. I presume it has to with the amount of regulation you prefer, but it could be a number of other things. It may be that you took the test long ago and your opinion ha since changed, and a retaking of the test would move you to the right. In which case, we have an answer as to why people think you are liberal (because you used to be).

They may not be the only fiscal issues to consider, but those are the only issues to which the people here have to base an opinion. Plus, that compass is weighted weird. I'd be willing to re-take it, but I'd probably come up a leftist libertarian again. Kenya link me to it? Or point me in the right direction?

Anyway, if you're saying that my position on that graph is what you're basing your opinion on, then alright. That's an answer to my question. But I'd like to here other answers. I noticed that none of the people who call me these things on a regular basis have posted. Plus, I highly doubt that many people scrutinized those political compasses. So, any other answers?
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mongeese
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10/28/2009 6:00:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
From the Liberitarian section, your views look very liberal, especially when it comes to Barack Obama. It would probably help your case if you editted Civil Unions to reflect your true opinions, rather than just opinions based on the status quo.
JBlake
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10/28/2009 6:00:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
www.politicalcompass.org

I didn't use your position on the graph o categorize you. I observed that you and I agree on a great number of issues. I consider myself to be progressive and left leaning. From that I categorized you as the same. Oops.

But I will stop posting now, so that the people you wanted to hear from can post.
Ragnar_Rahl
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10/28/2009 6:05:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:04:56 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Out of curiosity, can anyone please tell me why there is such a dramatic characterization of me as a flaming liberal all of a sudden?
You're a libertarian who has a love/hate relationship with the welfare state. Real libertarians can only have the hate. Therefore you are disqualified from that, and are thus nearer a liberal than a conservative (neither liberalism nor conservatism is so strict a label as libertarianism).

I don't think our political atmosphere can sustain that ideology atm so I definitely consider myself a moderate. Regarding social issues (like gay marriage), I don't even think my stance there is "liberal" -- I think these are obvious issues of right and wrong lol at least in a LEGAL sense. And my opinion on things like legalizing pot and nationalizing health care isn't because I side with this liberal ideology, but because I have legitimate reasons for supporting these issues
Liberals think the same about their reasons.

Ok, so say Ragnar and I have the same response to social issues. Why is he a Libertarian and me a Liberal?
Because my response to having a big enough gun and seeing a tax collector for the welfare state involves firing.

f you're saying that you're taking other factors into consideration then (like the economy), then clearly that doesn't hold either since only half of my economical issues are liberal (the other conservative).
Only half are left wing-- but this is the case for most "liberals." When someone is further left on economics, we call them a socialist.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
ToastOfDestiny
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10/28/2009 6:06:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 5:31:45 PM, tkubok wrote:
Methinks it has to do with the fact that L stands for another word.

Oh my god. I just understod Lwerd's name. I gotta say, that was one of my favorite epiphanies.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
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Ragnar_Rahl
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10/28/2009 6:09:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Btw, we don't have the same response for social issues. You're against late term abortions, whereas I'm unconditionally in favor of free reign booting them out of the womb at any time one pleases, and out of the house too in the absence of a demonstrable contract.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2009 6:17:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 6:00:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
From the Liberitarian section, your views look very liberal, especially when it comes to Barack Obama. It would probably help your case if you editted Civil Unions to reflect your true opinions, rather than just opinions based on the status quo.

...? What about me has made me appear liberal regarding Barack Obama? Plese, explain.

And my opinion on civil unions is simple. If they incorporated the same benefits as homosexual marriage, I'd be fine with that. I don't care if the union is called a civil marriage or whatever the hell. The point is to have the same standing under the law. And further, I think civil unions are at least SOMETHING as compared to nothing. For these reasons, I am Pro. Why do you think I'm Pro? What are you talking about?
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Ragnar_Rahl
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10/28/2009 6:20:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At best, Lwerd might get by with "Liberaltarian."

If it weren't for guns even that would be a stretch.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Lifeisgood
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10/28/2009 6:21:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Have you always been this much right-leaning, Lwerd? When I first came to this site, I had a very strong impression that you were a liberal, but I noticed just a few days ago that your views do not seem very liberal at all. Has your ideology changed much over the past few months?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Ragnar_Rahl
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10/28/2009 6:26:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I think you just skimmed over the NHC, welfare, Social Security type stuff this time around.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mattrodstrom
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10/28/2009 6:30:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Ragnar,
Just b/c most notable libertarians of the day conform to strict standards of libertarianism doesn't mean that the label has to be exclusive to "true believers".

I consider myself as a believer in free markets as the best wealth generating system, and most respectful of individual rights, but I also comprehend that some people can get F'd over from it, through pretty much no fault of their own, and consider limited social programs a morally necessary prerequisite to engaging in capitalism.

I understand that this is not the party line, but believe my thinking is Libertarian, just of the Moderate variety.

Why is the group Libertarian necessarily more "strict" than other political theories.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ragnar_Rahl
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10/28/2009 6:36:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 6:30:49 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Ragnar,
Just b/c most notable libertarians of the day conform to strict standards of libertarianism doesn't mean that the label has to be exclusive to "true believers".
One forms concepts for a reason. If you wish to describe the strict, you use a strict definition-- and resultantly the label sticks with the strict.


I consider myself as a believer in free markets as the best wealth generating system, and most respectful of individual rights, but I also comprehend that some people can get F'd over from it, through pretty much no fault of their own, and consider limited social programs a morally necessary prerequisite to engaging in capitalism.
Liberaltarian.


I understand that this is not the party line, but believe my thinking is Libertarian, just of the Moderate variety.
A moderate Libertarian, like a moderate Communist, is an unwieldy phrase, and it's also unspecific about where the moderateness is (unlike, say, Liberaltarian, and Conservatarian, which do specify what part gets moderated).

Why is the group Libertarian necessarily more "strict" than other political theories.
Because it is defined in terms of the abolition of the initiation of force and fraud. It's an ideology that lends itself well to definitions that mean something, and such things should be treated accordingly. I'd advocate that every word about ideologies be treated similarly, but I don't think most ideologies are coherent enough to qualify for it.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
JBlake
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10/28/2009 6:38:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/28/2009 6:30:49 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Ragnar,
Just b/c most notable libertarians of the day conform to strict standards of libertarianism doesn't mean that the label has to be exclusive to "true believers".

I consider myself as a believer in free markets as the best wealth generating system, and most respectful of individual rights, but I also comprehend that some people can get F'd over from it, through pretty much no fault of their own, and consider limited social programs a morally necessary prerequisite to engaging in capitalism.

I understand that this is not the party line, but believe my thinking is Libertarian, just of the Moderate variety.

Why is the group Libertarian necessarily more "strict" than other political theories.

Because Libertarians as a group often fight over the term. They prefer ideological purity over real power and influence. If they were willing to be more accepting, they might stand a real chance of building a coalition with a real chance.