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Atheist in Arizona? No diploma for you!

drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
BEGINNING IN THE 2013‑2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...
tmar19652
Posts: 727
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1/26/2013 1:21:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013‑2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

Amurica!!! F-yeah.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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1/26/2013 1:39:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Reminds me of the favourite school saying: "Your voluntary contribution is required".
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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1/26/2013 1:50:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I wish I could say I was surprised. But I'm not. This is the state of John McCain, Charles Carreon, and the dolphin people from that P&T: Bullsh!t episode. There's plenty of crazy.
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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1/26/2013 1:59:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Good, this way we'll weed out all the possibly disloyal foreign agents posing as Ameican high school students.

They won't be able to resist injecting their secularism.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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1/26/2013 2:06:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Heh, I thought this was going to be something of vague importance.
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DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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1/26/2013 2:08:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

Absolutely disgusting! I have contacted the Freedom from Religion Foundation concerning this legislation and will get the ACLU involved. This makes me want to puke!
The Great Wall of Fail

"I have doubts that anti-semitism even exists" -GeoLaureate8

"Evolutionists think that people evolved from rocks" -Scotty

"And whats so bad about a Holy war? By Holy war, I mean a war which would aim to subdue others under Islam." -Ahmed.M

"The free market didn't create the massive wealth in the country, WW2 did." -malcomxy

"Independant federal regulators make our capitalist society possible." -Erik_Erikson
OberHerr
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1/26/2013 2:09:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Wow....people can seriously overreact sometimes.
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"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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tmar19652
Posts: 727
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1/26/2013 2:11:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 2:08:32 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

Absolutely disgusting! I have contacted the Freedom from Religion Foundation concerning this legislation and will get the ACLU involved. This makes me want to puke!

Straight to the nuclear option!
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/26/2013 2:40:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Heh, I thought this was going to be something of vague importance.

If it said "So help me Allah" would your response be different?
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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1/26/2013 2:58:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 2:40:06 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Heh, I thought this was going to be something of vague importance.

If it said "So help me Allah" would your response be different?

You do know what Allah mean don't you?
kfc
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/26/2013 3:23:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 2:58:01 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 1/26/2013 2:40:06 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Heh, I thought this was going to be something of vague importance.

If it said "So help me Allah" would your response be different?

You do know what Allah mean don't you?

It means "God" but that doesn't matter because it's almost always associated with the Muslim God.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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1/26/2013 3:40:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 3:23:21 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/26/2013 2:58:01 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 1/26/2013 2:40:06 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Heh, I thought this was going to be something of vague importance.

If it said "So help me Allah" would your response be different?

You do know what Allah mean don't you?

It means "God" but that doesn't matter because it's almost always associated with the Muslim God.

Yea, so what if it said:

"I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND SCIENCE, REASON, LOGIC, AND TRUTH AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN, DOMESTIC; RELIGIOUS AND NON RELIGIOUS THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER. "
The Great Wall of Fail

"I have doubts that anti-semitism even exists" -GeoLaureate8

"Evolutionists think that people evolved from rocks" -Scotty

"And whats so bad about a Holy war? By Holy war, I mean a war which would aim to subdue others under Islam." -Ahmed.M

"The free market didn't create the massive wealth in the country, WW2 did." -malcomxy

"Independant federal regulators make our capitalist society possible." -Erik_Erikson
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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1/26/2013 4:57:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

I don't see why atheists are getting so upset. Why would they have a problem swearing to something that doesn't exist? Atheists should be able to make this pledge easily, as there is no compelling force to stop them from breaking their word, except themselves. So, the issue isn't "So help me God", it is the pledge itself, as the atheist can easily lie with no perceived reprecussuions.

My problem is that one is forced to be in school, and this is an allegience pledge, so a public school should not be coercing a pledge of this kind.

The only good outcome this can have is an attempt to weaken the public school system with an increase in demand for private schools.
My work here is, finally, done.
drafterman
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1/26/2013 5:09:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 4:57:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

I don't see why atheists are getting so upset. Why would they have a problem swearing to something that doesn't exist? Atheists should be able to make this pledge easily, as there is no compelling force to stop them from breaking their word, except themselves. So, the issue isn't "So help me God", it is the pledge itself, as the atheist can easily lie with no perceived reprecussuions.

My problem is that one is forced to be in school, and this is an allegience pledge, so a public school should not be coercing a pledge of this kind.

The only good outcome this can have is an attempt to weaken the public school system with an increase in demand for private schools.

Because atheists shouldn't have to lie about being atheists in order to advance in society. It's the same reason "Don't ask, Don't tell" was such an absurd policy.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/26/2013 5:26:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is extremely absurd, and the schools should be sued, but if someone is an Atheist, I would advise that she sign it. I pretend to be at least minutely religious depending on who I am with. This is the only place I can express my true feelings about God without catching flak from the whole world.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/26/2013 6:04:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Who cares. We need more loyalty to the Constitution. I don't like the compulsory aspect, however.

Atheism and Theism are the same. "God" is a non-specific term. Pantheists have the same belief as Atheists, yet still use the word "God."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/26/2013 6:18:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 6:04:45 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Who cares. We need more loyalty to the Constitution. I don't like the compulsory aspect, however.

That's the point.


Atheism and Theism are the same. "God" is a non-specific term. Pantheists have the same belief as Atheists, yet still use the word "God."

No, Patheists don't have the same belief as Atheists. Pantheists believe in a god. Atheists don't.
GeoLaureate8
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1/26/2013 11:47:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 6:18:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 6:04:45 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Who cares. We need more loyalty to the Constitution. I don't like the compulsory aspect, however.

That's the point

The outrage is over the words "please help me God." They aren't mad about the compulsory part.

Atheism and Theism are the same. "God" is a non-specific term. Pantheists have the same belief as Atheists, yet still use the word "God."

No, Patheists don't have the same belief as Atheists. Pantheists believe in a god. Atheists don't.

"Pantheism is sexed up Atheism."
-- Richard Dawkins

Pantheists call the Universe, God. Atheists believe in the Universe.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
YYW
Posts: 36,345
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1/26/2013 11:50:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

Fvck Arizona and the collective sum of its politicians.
Tsar of DDO
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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1/26/2013 11:53:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@DM and DD

Not really, no. Wording is sorta irrelevant.

I mean, we have "In God We Trust" on our dollar bill, I just see it as a harmless little point towards amour roots I suppose. Kinda a tradition.

If the people of Arizona care enough, which I doubt they will cause it's irrelevant and I doubt many of them overreact this much, then they can change it. Until then, you can keep being offended by it.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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1/27/2013 4:25:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 5:09:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 4:57:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

I don't see why atheists are getting so upset. Why would they have a problem swearing to something that doesn't exist? Atheists should be able to make this pledge easily, as there is no compelling force to stop them from breaking their word, except themselves. So, the issue isn't "So help me God", it is the pledge itself, as the atheist can easily lie with no perceived reprecussuions.

My problem is that one is forced to be in school, and this is an allegience pledge, so a public school should not be coercing a pledge of this kind.

The only good outcome this can have is an attempt to weaken the public school system with an increase in demand for private schools.

Because atheists shouldn't have to lie about being atheists in order to advance in society. It's the same reason "Don't ask, Don't tell" was such an absurd policy.

When I said "lie", I was referring to the oath means nothing (which makes it ineffective) to an atheist, not that the atheist should lie about his beliefs.

As an agnostic, if something ends with "so help me God", I view it as a matter of honor, not a literal contract with the Almighty; I take no offense to raising my right hand on the stand and saying that the testimony I give is "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God". I would rather say "bring dishonor to my family", but in our Judeo-Christian heritage, the common expression is a reference to the moral superiority of a judging deity, and doesn't even refer to any specific diety.
My work here is, finally, done.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/27/2013 5:59:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 4:25:03 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 5:09:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 4:57:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

I don't see why atheists are getting so upset. Why would they have a problem swearing to something that doesn't exist? Atheists should be able to make this pledge easily, as there is no compelling force to stop them from breaking their word, except themselves. So, the issue isn't "So help me God", it is the pledge itself, as the atheist can easily lie with no perceived reprecussuions.

My problem is that one is forced to be in school, and this is an allegience pledge, so a public school should not be coercing a pledge of this kind.

The only good outcome this can have is an attempt to weaken the public school system with an increase in demand for private schools.

Because atheists shouldn't have to lie about being atheists in order to advance in society. It's the same reason "Don't ask, Don't tell" was such an absurd policy.

When I said "lie", I was referring to the oath means nothing (which makes it ineffective) to an atheist, not that the atheist should lie about his beliefs.

As an agnostic, if something ends with "so help me God", I view it as a matter of honor, not a literal contract with the Almighty; I take no offense to raising my right hand on the stand and saying that the testimony I give is "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God". I would rather say "bring dishonor to my family", but in our Judeo-Christian heritage, the common expression is a reference to the moral superiority of a judging deity, and doesn't even refer to any specific diety.

If that's the case, would they be ok with me substituting "Aphrodite" for "God"?
drafterman
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1/27/2013 6:59:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 4:25:03 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 5:09:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 4:57:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

I don't see why atheists are getting so upset. Why would they have a problem swearing to something that doesn't exist? Atheists should be able to make this pledge easily, as there is no compelling force to stop them from breaking their word, except themselves. So, the issue isn't "So help me God", it is the pledge itself, as the atheist can easily lie with no perceived reprecussuions.

My problem is that one is forced to be in school, and this is an allegience pledge, so a public school should not be coercing a pledge of this kind.

The only good outcome this can have is an attempt to weaken the public school system with an increase in demand for private schools.

Because atheists shouldn't have to lie about being atheists in order to advance in society. It's the same reason "Don't ask, Don't tell" was such an absurd policy.

When I said "lie", I was referring to the oath means nothing (which makes it ineffective) to an atheist, not that the atheist should lie about his beliefs.

If an atheist says that oath, he's lying about his beliefs.


As an agnostic, if something ends with "so help me God", I view it as a matter of honor, not a literal contract with the Almighty; I take no offense to raising my right hand on the stand and saying that the testimony I give is "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God". I would rather say "bring dishonor to my family", but in our Judeo-Christian heritage, the common expression is a reference to the moral superiority of a judging deity, and doesn't even refer to any specific diety.

If its meaningless, then why is it being proposed as a requirement to get, perhaps, the single most important certification a person can get?
drafterman
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1/27/2013 7:01:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 11:47:21 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/26/2013 6:18:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 6:04:45 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Who cares. We need more loyalty to the Constitution. I don't like the compulsory aspect, however.

That's the point

The outrage is over the words "please help me God." They aren't mad about the compulsory part.

Yes, they are. They're mad that they are being compelled to take a religious oath.


Atheism and Theism are the same. "God" is a non-specific term. Pantheists have the same belief as Atheists, yet still use the word "God."

No, Patheists don't have the same belief as Atheists. Pantheists believe in a god. Atheists don't.

"Pantheism is sexed up Atheism."
-- Richard Dawkins

Pantheists call the Universe, God. Atheists believe in the Universe.

But not that the universe is god.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/27/2013 7:03:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 11:53:19 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@DM and DD

Not really, no. Wording is sorta irrelevant.

I mean, we have "In God We Trust" on our dollar bill, I just see it as a harmless little point towards amour roots I suppose. Kinda a tradition.

All of that god stuff on our money and pledge and motto came about in the 50's as part of the Red Scare. It isn't part of our tradition and we object to it as well.


If the people of Arizona care enough, which I doubt they will cause it's irrelevant and I doubt many of them overreact this much, then they can change it. Until then, you can keep being offended by it.

How is it an overreaction?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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1/27/2013 4:13:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:59:37 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/27/2013 4:25:03 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 5:09:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 4:57:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

I don't see why atheists are getting so upset. Why would they have a problem swearing to something that doesn't exist? Atheists should be able to make this pledge easily, as there is no compelling force to stop them from breaking their word, except themselves. So, the issue isn't "So help me God", it is the pledge itself, as the atheist can easily lie with no perceived reprecussuions.

My problem is that one is forced to be in school, and this is an allegience pledge, so a public school should not be coercing a pledge of this kind.

The only good outcome this can have is an attempt to weaken the public school system with an increase in demand for private schools.

Because atheists shouldn't have to lie about being atheists in order to advance in society. It's the same reason "Don't ask, Don't tell" was such an absurd policy.

When I said "lie", I was referring to the oath means nothing (which makes it ineffective) to an atheist, not that the atheist should lie about his beliefs.

If an atheist says that oath, he's lying about his beliefs.

Where in the oath does it say you believe in God? How can God punish you if he doesn't exist?


As an agnostic, if something ends with "so help me God", I view it as a matter of honor, not a literal contract with the Almighty; I take no offense to raising my right hand on the stand and saying that the testimony I give is "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God". I would rather say "bring dishonor to my family", but in our Judeo-Christian heritage, the common expression is a reference to the moral superiority of a judging deity, and doesn't even refer to any specific diety.

If its meaningless, then why is it being proposed as a requirement to get, perhaps, the single most important certification a person can get?

The pledge itself is not meaningless, only the clause at issue is, if taken literaly by an atheist or other religion (as they generally use another name for God, such as Allah, Abraham, Shiva, etc.). I don't take it literally, and using the phrase "so help me God" is more recognizibale, meaningful, and historicaly used by more Americans than "on my honor".

However, as stated, the pledge itself is bothersome, as it is the antithesis of the American mindset.
My work here is, finally, done.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/27/2013 4:21:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 4:13:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:59:37 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/27/2013 4:25:03 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 5:09:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/26/2013 4:57:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
BEGINNING IN THE 2013&#8209;2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.
http://legiscan.com...

I don't see why atheists are getting so upset. Why would they have a problem swearing to something that doesn't exist? Atheists should be able to make this pledge easily, as there is no compelling force to stop them from breaking their word, except themselves. So, the issue isn't "So help me God", it is the pledge itself, as the atheist can easily lie with no perceived reprecussuions.

My problem is that one is forced to be in school, and this is an allegience pledge, so a public school should not be coercing a pledge of this kind.

The only good outcome this can have is an attempt to weaken the public school system with an increase in demand for private schools.

Because atheists shouldn't have to lie about being atheists in order to advance in society. It's the same reason "Don't ask, Don't tell" was such an absurd policy.

When I said "lie", I was referring to the oath means nothing (which makes it ineffective) to an atheist, not that the atheist should lie about his beliefs.

If an atheist says that oath, he's lying about his beliefs.

Where in the oath does it say you believe in God?

The part where it asks me to solicit help from him, the implication being that he exists.

How can God punish you if he doesn't exist?

It's not god I'm worried about, it's his believers.



As an agnostic, if something ends with "so help me God", I view it as a matter of honor, not a literal contract with the Almighty; I take no offense to raising my right hand on the stand and saying that the testimony I give is "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God". I would rather say "bring dishonor to my family", but in our Judeo-Christian heritage, the common expression is a reference to the moral superiority of a judging deity, and doesn't even refer to any specific diety.

If its meaningless, then why is it being proposed as a requirement to get, perhaps, the single most important certification a person can get?

The pledge itself is not meaningless, only the clause at issue is, if taken literaly by an atheist or other religion (as they generally use another name for God, such as Allah, Abraham, Shiva, etc.). I don't take it literally, and using the phrase "so help me God" is more recognizibale, meaningful, and historicaly used by more Americans than "on my honor".

Since there isn't an option to pick and choose which parts of the pledge will be said, then it's irrelevant if parts are meaningless and parts aren't. Also, it doesn't matter if the speaker takes it seriously, it's the people demanding it that do.


However, as stated, the pledge itself is bothersome, as it is the antithesis of the American mindset.
Lordknukle
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1/28/2013 11:47:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2013 1:03:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

This only points to the fact that you have to say only the oath. It does not state anything about what you can add onto the oath, or what you can precede the oath with, as long as you strictly mention that oath. Legally speaking, it's perfectly possible to add "God is a big poopy-head" at the end of the oath and still fulfill the legal requirements. Or you can just say that you don't mean it at the end.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."