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Is Women's Rights a Liberal Issue?

wrichcirw
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1/27/2013 5:53:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've had some discussions with people on this forum that think the center is moving to the left.

30-40 years ago, women's rights were indeed a liberal issue. However, let's face it, there are conservative women, too. These conservatives enjoy the rights to equal pay at similar work that men enjoy, among other things. McCain's daughter was outspoken in denouncing Todd Akin for his "legitimate rape" remarks.

So, at this juncture, is women's rights still a liberal issue?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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1/27/2013 6:01:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 5:53:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I've had some discussions with people on this forum that think the center is moving to the left.

30-40 years ago, women's rights were indeed a liberal issue. However, let's face it, there are conservative women, too. These conservatives enjoy the rights to equal pay at similar work that men enjoy, among other things. McCain's daughter was outspoken in denouncing Todd Akin for his "legitimate rape" remarks.

So, at this juncture, is women's rights still a liberal issue?

If you are talking about positive liberty than it s social-liberal aka Progressive (Left wing). If you are talking about negative liberty than it is classic liberal aka Libertarian (Right wing). If you are talking about social justice than it is populist aka Progressive (Left wing).
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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1/27/2013 6:08:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
women's rights are a women's issue.

they're 53% of the population. That does make for a liberal amount of them, I suppose, but I have no idea how the rights of over half the population could be considered liberal in anything but, perhaps, scope.

This is about liberty, though, so perhaps it is a liberal issue. What do I know? (answer - very little when it comes to women, no matter how much I think I have them figured out at any given moment)
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/27/2013 6:10:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:01:02 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/27/2013 5:53:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I've had some discussions with people on this forum that think the center is moving to the left.

30-40 years ago, women's rights were indeed a liberal issue. However, let's face it, there are conservative women, too. These conservatives enjoy the rights to equal pay at similar work that men enjoy, among other things. McCain's daughter was outspoken in denouncing Todd Akin for his "legitimate rape" remarks.

So, at this juncture, is women's rights still a liberal issue?

If you are talking about positive liberty than it s social-liberal aka Progressive (Left wing). If you are talking about negative liberty than it is classic liberal aka Libertarian (Right wing). If you are talking about social justice than it is populist aka Progressive (Left wing).

Can you give some examples of each kind of liberty?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/27/2013 6:10:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:03:13 PM, Mirza wrote:
I'd say the issue is that it's becoming more than a joke.

I think in some circumstances you are right.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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1/27/2013 6:11:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 5:53:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I've had some discussions with people on this forum that think the center is moving to the left.

30-40 years ago, women's rights were indeed a liberal issue. However, let's face it, there are conservative women, too. These conservatives enjoy the rights to equal pay at similar work that men enjoy, among other things. McCain's daughter was outspoken in denouncing Todd Akin for his "legitimate rape" remarks.

So, at this juncture, is women's rights still a liberal issue?

Yes, but the nature of the debate has changed relative to the circumstances of the present.
Tsar of DDO
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/27/2013 6:18:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
While before women's rights issue used to be about the right to vote, it has now become based on such important issues as:

-can i get free birth control
-can i get free abortions
-can i get as much money as men while doing less dangerous and stressful work
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/27/2013 6:23:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:18:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
While before women's rights issue used to be about the right to vote, it has now become based on such important issues as:

-can i get free birth control
-can i get free abortions
-can i get as much money as men while doing less dangerous and stressful work

*Waits for Royal-DK flamewar*
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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1/27/2013 6:24:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:18:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
While before women's rights issue used to be about the right to vote, it has now become based on such important issues as:

-can i get free birth control
-can i get free abortions
-can i get as much money as men while doing less dangerous and stressful work

It's not FREE birth control. It's AVAILABLE birth control.

It's not FREE abortions. It's AVAILABLE abortions.

There is no woman who doesn't do a job that wants the same money for their job as a man gets for another job. They simply want the same money for the SAME job.

And, it's not even the same money. As the ones who incubate the prematurely born human offspring (most other animals can walk the moment they fall out the womb...our stupid big brains mean that we gotta pop out prematurely and gestate in the open for 3 years), they have to leave their jobs for a time and deal with that, which leads to skill atrophy and being passed over for promotion.

With that, if women made $.78 on the dollar as opposed to men, wages could be considered somewhat fair, but they don't even get that.

I hope you never get another BJ in your life until you stop spouting that horsesh*t.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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1/27/2013 6:26:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:23:11 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:18:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
While before women's rights issue used to be about the right to vote, it has now become based on such important issues as:

-can i get free birth control
-can i get free abortions
-can i get as much money as men while doing less dangerous and stressful work

*Waits for Royal-DK flamewar*

allow me to facilitate.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/27/2013 6:26:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:23:11 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
*Waits for Royal-DK flamewar*
Here, have some Mirza's Delicious Popcorn! http://www.livingonadime.com... Can't enjoy a flame war without that. Also Choco Smoothie: http://simplysugarandglutenfree.com...
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/27/2013 6:31:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:10:26 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:01:02 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/27/2013 5:53:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I've had some discussions with people on this forum that think the center is moving to the left.

30-40 years ago, women's rights were indeed a liberal issue. However, let's face it, there are conservative women, too. These conservatives enjoy the rights to equal pay at similar work that men enjoy, among other things. McCain's daughter was outspoken in denouncing Todd Akin for his "legitimate rape" remarks.

So, at this juncture, is women's rights still a liberal issue?

If you are talking about positive liberty than it s social-liberal aka Progressive (Left wing). If you are talking about negative liberty than it is classic liberal aka Libertarian (Right wing). If you are talking about social justice than it is populist aka Progressive (Left wing).

Can you give some examples of each kind of liberty?

I may be wrong here, but this is how I understood it. Feel free to correct me.

Negative liberty pretty much means freedom from coercion, meaning no one can force you to do anything you are not obligated to do.

Positive liberty, from how it's been described to me, is having the resources to act towards one's self realization.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/27/2013 6:33:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:26:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:23:11 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
*Waits for Royal-DK flamewar*
Here, have some Mirza's Delicious Popcorn! http://www.livingonadime.com... Can't enjoy a flame war without that. Also Choco Smoothie: http://simplysugarandglutenfree.com...

<3
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/27/2013 6:34:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:26:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:23:11 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
*Waits for Royal-DK flamewar*
Here, have some Mirza's Delicious Popcorn! http://www.livingonadime.com... Can't enjoy a flame war without that. Also Choco Smoothie: http://simplysugarandglutenfree.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/bberry-choco-smoothie-2.jpg

I don't want any of that gluten-free crap. I gain pleasure from the I fact I can eat something that will kill weaker folk.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/27/2013 6:38:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:34:46 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I don't want any of that gluten-free crap. I gain pleasure from the I fact I can eat something that will kill weaker folk.
You don't enjoy my smoothie? Okay. It's chocolate though, you should reevaluate your opinion. I'm sure you'll like my radioactive wine though! http://www.colourbox.com... Enjoy!
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/27/2013 6:42:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:24:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:18:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
While before women's rights issue used to be about the right to vote, it has now become based on such important issues as:

-can i get free birth control
-can i get free abortions
-can i get as much money as men while doing less dangerous and stressful work

It's not FREE birth control. It's AVAILABLE birth control.

It's not FREE abortions. It's AVAILABLE abortions.

No idea, no comment.

There is no woman who doesn't do a job that wants the same money for their job as a man gets for another job. They simply want the same money for the SAME job.

I think this part is more or less common - there may still be cases of equal work for unequal pay, but to my knowledge much of this has been rectified. My understanding of the wage gap is that women prefer different jobs than men, and especially when that preference equates to positions of power and primacy, lead to a pronounced wage gap.

And, it's not even the same money. As the ones who incubate the prematurely born human offspring (most other animals can walk the moment they fall out the womb...our stupid big brains mean that we gotta pop out prematurely and gestate in the open for 3 years), they have to leave their jobs for a time and deal with that, which leads to skill atrophy and being passed over for promotion.

This is where discrimination is IMHO warranted. I'm all for free health care in relation to pregnancies and child-bearing (up to a certain number, maybe 2 or 3), but there is no question that 3 months of being absent from work (maternity leave) harms an employer. To ask that employers willingly harm their businesses for a concept of social equality that has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with a woman's unique capability for child-birthing is not reasonable.

I'd be for laws that mandate an employer bite the bullet on one or two instances of maternity leave, but no more than that. I don't know exactly where the law stands on this currently.

With that, if women made $.78 on the dollar as opposed to men, wages could be considered somewhat fair, but they don't even get that.

I hope you never get another BJ in your life until you stop spouting that horsesh*t.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/27/2013 6:45:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:31:38 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:10:26 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:01:02 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/27/2013 5:53:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I've had some discussions with people on this forum that think the center is moving to the left.

30-40 years ago, women's rights were indeed a liberal issue. However, let's face it, there are conservative women, too. These conservatives enjoy the rights to equal pay at similar work that men enjoy, among other things. McCain's daughter was outspoken in denouncing Todd Akin for his "legitimate rape" remarks.

So, at this juncture, is women's rights still a liberal issue?

If you are talking about positive liberty than it s social-liberal aka Progressive (Left wing). If you are talking about negative liberty than it is classic liberal aka Libertarian (Right wing). If you are talking about social justice than it is populist aka Progressive (Left wing).

Can you give some examples of each kind of liberty?

I may be wrong here, but this is how I understood it. Feel free to correct me.

Negative liberty pretty much means freedom from coercion, meaning no one can force you to do anything you are not obligated to do.

Positive liberty, from how it's been described to me, is having the resources to act towards one's self realization.

Thanks for trying, but I'm going to need examples. Otherwise, crap like this doesn't mean anything to me:

"Negative liberty is freedom from interference by other people. Negative liberty is primarily concerned with the possession of sociological agency and contrasts with positive liberty (an individual's freedom from inhibitions of the social structure within the society such as classism, sexism, or racism). "

http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/27/2013 6:46:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:38:37 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:34:46 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I don't want any of that gluten-free crap. I gain pleasure from the I fact I can eat something that will kill weaker folk.
You don't enjoy my smoothie? Okay. It's chocolate though, you should reevaluate your opinion. I'm sure you'll like my radioactive wine though! http://www.colourbox.com... Enjoy!

There's the stuff! Getting drunk with the added benefit of obtaining superpowers! It is literally anything I could ever want in a product.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/27/2013 6:48:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:46:15 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
There's the stuff! Getting drunk with the added benefit of obtaining superpowers! It is literally anything I could ever want in a product.
Glad to be of service Mr. Sir! Maybe I should advertise this on national tv? Certainly a good idea.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/27/2013 6:49:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:48:28 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:46:15 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
There's the stuff! Getting drunk with the added benefit of obtaining superpowers! It is literally anything I could ever want in a product.
Glad to be of service Mr. Sir! Maybe I should advertise this on national tv? Certainly a good idea.

Actually, I lied. It should also have tits and be on fire. Then your product will be complete.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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1/27/2013 6:52:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:08:37 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
women's rights are a women's issue.

they're 53% of the population. That does make for a liberal amount of them, I suppose, but I have no idea how the rights of over half the population could be considered liberal in anything but, perhaps, scope.

This is about liberty, though, so perhaps it is a liberal issue. What do I know? (answer - very little when it comes to women, no matter how much I think I have them figured out at any given moment)

This guy speaks a lot of truth, I notice.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/27/2013 6:52:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:49:45 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Actually, I lied. It should also have tits and be on fire. Then your product will be complete.
My target group aren't witch hunters but... Thanks for the suggestion. Have a good rehabilitation though.
TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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1/27/2013 7:13:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 5:53:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I've had some discussions with people on this forum that think the center is moving to the left.

30-40 years ago, women's rights were indeed a liberal issue. However, let's face it, there are conservative women, too. These conservatives enjoy the rights to equal pay at similar work that men enjoy, among other things. McCain's daughter was outspoken in denouncing Todd Akin for his "legitimate rape" remarks.

So, at this juncture, is women's rights still a liberal issue?

The issue may still consider a liberal issue, yet there are women on both political spectrum fighting for the equality.
P.S. Is MacCain's daughter a conservative or a liberal?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/27/2013 7:15:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:23:11 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:18:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
While before women's rights issue used to be about the right to vote, it has now become based on such important issues as:

-can i get free birth control
-can i get free abortions
-can i get as much money as men while doing less dangerous and stressful work

*Waits for Royal-DK flamewar*

we've mutually agreed never to engage w/ one another on DDO.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
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1/27/2013 7:22:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:24:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:18:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
While before women's rights issue used to be about the right to vote, it has now become based on such important issues as:

-can i get free birth control
-can i get free abortions
-can i get as much money as men while doing less dangerous and stressful work

It's not FREE birth control. It's AVAILABLE birth control.

It's not FREE abortions. It's AVAILABLE abortions.

Yes, because of course they're not available now.

There is no woman who doesn't do a job that wants the same money for their job as a man gets for another job. They simply want the same money for the SAME job.


And, it's not even the same money. As the ones who incubate the prematurely born human offspring (most other animals can walk the moment they fall out the womb...our stupid big brains mean that we gotta pop out prematurely and gestate in the open for 3 years), they have to leave their jobs for a time and deal with that, which leads to skill atrophy and being passed over for promotion.

With that, if women made $.78 on the dollar as opposed to men, wages could be considered somewhat fair, but they don't even get that.

I hope you never get another BJ in your life until you stop spouting that horsesh*t.

Oh yea, ad homenim attack to finish it off. Don't know why I'm wasting my time with you. Perhaps a debate challenge can come across from it. Studies have shown that taking into consideration amount of time taken off due to pregnenacy, hours worked, and so forth its 98 cents to the dollar.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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1/27/2013 7:28:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 6:42:47 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:24:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:

This is where discrimination is IMHO warranted. I'm all for free health care in relation to pregnancies and child-bearing (up to a certain number, maybe 2 or 3), but there is no question that 3 months of being absent from work (maternity leave) harms an employer. To ask that employers willingly harm their businesses for a concept of social equality that has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with a woman's unique capability for child-birthing is not reasonable.

I'm not sure it is, but it is understandable that it is. That's why I said below - if they could get to the wage level that was equal, even after taking this into account, that would be something, but they're not even there yet (I'm not sure if it's exactly $.22/$1, but it's close to that, and they make $.71/$1...7%, compounded is a lot of money)


I'd be for laws that mandate an employer bite the bullet on one or two instances of maternity leave, but no more than that. I don't know exactly where the law stands on this currently.

that eugenics, man. not cool.


With that, if women made $.78 on the dollar as opposed to men, wages could be considered somewhat fair, but they don't even get that.

I hope you never get another BJ in your life until you stop spouting that horsesh*t.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
malcolmxy
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1/27/2013 7:33:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2013 7:22:03 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:24:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 1/27/2013 6:18:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
While before women's rights issue used to be about the right to vote, it has now become based on such important issues as:

-can i get free birth control
-can i get free abortions
-can i get as much money as men while doing less dangerous and stressful work

It's not FREE birth control. It's AVAILABLE birth control.

It's not FREE abortions. It's AVAILABLE abortions.

Yes, because of course they're not available now.

Well, in Texas, one has to have a probe jammed up their vajayjay and look at a sonogram of the fetus before they can get an abortion, and now that Perry has refused federal funding for planned parenthood (which does more than just abortions...they also provide prenatal care for the unemployed, impoverished women of the communities they serve), even finding a place to get an abortion in Texas is difficult.

If you live in a state which generally votes democrat, you're probably OK, but that leaves about 38 other states where access to an abortion, even for those who would be happy to pay for one is becoming increasingly difficult to find.



There is no woman who doesn't do a job that wants the same money for their job as a man gets for another job. They simply want the same money for the SAME job.



And, it's not even the same money. As the ones who incubate the prematurely born human offspring (most other animals can walk the moment they fall out the womb...our stupid big brains mean that we gotta pop out prematurely and gestate in the open for 3 years), they have to leave their jobs for a time and deal with that, which leads to skill atrophy and being passed over for promotion.

With that, if women made $.78 on the dollar as opposed to men, wages could be considered somewhat fair, but they don't even get that.

I hope you never get another BJ in your life until you stop spouting that horsesh*t.

Oh yea, ad homenim attack to finish it off. Don't know why I'm wasting my time with you. Perhaps a debate challenge can come across from it. Studies have shown that taking into consideration amount of time taken off due to pregnenacy, hours worked, and so forth its 98 cents to the dollar.



Oh no...ad hominem...oh...are you gonna be OK, little girl?

Don't claim that men are tough and then act like a little b!tch, OK? It makes you look ridiculous.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
malcolmxy
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1/27/2013 7:35:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, it's spelled, "yeah". Yea denotes an affirmative vote.

Additionally, Miss Piggy ain't gonna be happy with you on this one.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
malcolmxy
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1/27/2013 7:39:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
your video is horsesh!t as well.

Why are there less women engineers? Well, geez...it couldn't be because women are less encouraged in Math. Also, college enrollment is a factor of social pressure as well, and women are bridging the gap quickly there.

Economics is the here and now, and makes no analysis for how a thing came to be. Only that it is.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...