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Efficient Governments

crackofdawn_Jr
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10/29/2009 5:24:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I was wondering what everyone thought was the most efficient form of government. Emphasis on "efficient". So:

What government do you think is the most efficient?

Why?

I was also wondering what everyone thought was the best overall form of government.

What government do you think is the best overall?

Why?

After seeing a few posts I'll answer the questions above.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/29/2009 5:26:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This only has to be discussed because monopolies on the security of liberty naturally allow for inefficiency.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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10/29/2009 5:28:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:24:21 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
I was wondering what everyone thought was the most efficient form of government. Emphasis on "efficient". So:

What government do you think is the most efficient?

A country with minimal bureaucracy.


Why?

Cuts down costs and makes things simpler.


I was also wondering what everyone thought was the best overall form of government.

Government elected through proportional representation. One that protects the rights of a person as based on their constitution.


What government do you think is the best overall?

Urr..becuase it's what the governments should do.


Why?

Why not?


After seeing a few posts I'll answer the questions above.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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10/29/2009 5:28:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:26:26 PM, wjmelements wrote:
This only has to be discussed because monopolies on the security of liberty naturally allow for inefficiency.

Or the adding of too much liberty also decrease the efficiency of government.

Oh, you can choose whatever factors you want that create government efficiency.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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10/29/2009 5:32:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:24:21 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
What government do you think is the most efficient?
None.

Why?
The free market is the most efficient system known to man. The state is a negation of the free market, regardless of what degree it plans to negate it to.

What government do you think is the best overall?
None.

Why?
Previous reason + it not only necessitates no violence, but has less violence.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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10/29/2009 5:37:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:24:21 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
I was wondering what everyone thought was the most efficient form of government. Emphasis on "efficient". So:

What government do you think is the most efficient?
Empire
Why?
Because you don't have to go through all the stupid debates that take place in a democracy. You're word is law and no one can question it.
I was also wondering what everyone thought was the best overall form of government.

What government do you think is the best overall?
There is none.
Why?
Because all governments are put in place to take rights away from the people.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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10/29/2009 5:39:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:37:07 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Why?
Because all governments are put in place to take rights away from the people.

Murder, stealing and rape are now rights?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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10/29/2009 5:42:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:39:55 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:37:07 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Why?
Because all governments are put in place to take rights away from the people.

Murder, stealing and rape are now rights?

Liberty is a right and you sure are at liberty to do those
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/29/2009 5:43:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:42:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:39:55 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:37:07 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Why?
Because all governments are put in place to take rights away from the people.

Murder, stealing and rape are now rights?

Liberty is a right and you sure are at liberty to do those

Liberty does not extend to coercion.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wonderwoman
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10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/29/2009 5:50:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I see you have distinguished "State" from "government".

At 10/29/2009 5:24:21 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
I was wondering what everyone thought was the most efficient form of government. Emphasis on "efficient". So:

What government do you think is the most efficient?
Doesn't matter. In a panarchist society, the market would determine this. The individual need only choose the optimum system (cheap and effective).
Why?
Because that's how markets work.
I was also wondering what everyone thought was the best overall form of government.
Panarchism yields an efficient system.
What government do you think is the best overall?
My opinion on the most efficient type still doesn't matter
Why?
Because that's how the market works.
After seeing a few posts I'll answer the questions above.
You support a State...
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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10/29/2009 5:50:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.

Is that really what you believe?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/29/2009 5:51:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.

Enforced obedience makes a country inefficient. On the market, voluntary contract ("obedience") will be favored to the most effective system. Efficiency leads to obedience, not the other way around.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
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10/29/2009 5:54:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
Without obedience there is discourse.

No. Without contract, there is discourse. You support a contract instigated with violence (slavery, for example). The slave is naturally in discourse when there is no whip if still owned, but once free the individual is in order with society. He needn't an owner.

Order out of chaos. Learn it.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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10/29/2009 5:54:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:51:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.

Enforced obedience makes a country inefficient. On the market, voluntary contract ("obedience") will be favored to the most effective system. Efficiency leads to obedience, not the other way around.

effeciency cannot exist without obedience. The market? I assume you mean trade market or "free market" or a capitalist market? Enforced obedience has worked in the past and was effeceint.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/29/2009 5:56:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.

Are you gay this week? If not, you should meet Cody. I think you two fascists would hit it off :D
President of DDO
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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10/29/2009 5:56:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:54:56 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
effeciency cannot exist without obedience. The market? I assume you mean trade market or "free market" or a capitalist market? Enforced obedience has worked in the past and was effeceint.

You are arguing that the USSR was efficient. Is this your final answer?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/29/2009 5:57:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.


Are you gay this week? If not, you should meet Cody_Franklin. I think you two fascists would hit it off :D
President of DDO
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/29/2009 5:57:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:54:56 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:51:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.

Enforced obedience makes a country inefficient. On the market, voluntary contract ("obedience") will be favored to the most effective system. Efficiency leads to obedience, not the other way around.

effeciency cannot exist without obedience. The market? I assume you mean trade market or "free market" or a capitalist market? Enforced obedience has worked in the past and was effeceint.

I suppose your definition of efficient means slavery, the abolition of rights left and right, and no accountability system. Governments need accountability to be efficient, and accountability is maximized on the market.

The steel company is efficient. What is it obedient to? Only the wills of the consumer, but this, again, is the complete reverse of your claims: the producer is obedient to the consumer, not the other way around.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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10/29/2009 5:59:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:57:02 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.


Are you gay this week? If not, you should meet Cody_Franklin. I think you two fascists would hit it off :D


What's that supposed to mean?

And To Rezz not as effecient as it could have been but it was effecient you cannot die that fact. To start an arms race with a world super power would make you effeceint. wow I wish I could spell
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/29/2009 6:02:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Lol it's a joke because we tease Cody about being a fascist since he's super authoritarian like you seem to be.
President of DDO
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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10/29/2009 6:03:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 5:57:52 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:54:56 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:51:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.

Enforced obedience makes a country inefficient. On the market, voluntary contract ("obedience") will be favored to the most effective system. Efficiency leads to obedience, not the other way around.

effeciency cannot exist without obedience. The market? I assume you mean trade market or "free market" or a capitalist market? Enforced obedience has worked in the past and was effeceint.

I suppose your definition of efficient means slavery, the abolition of rights left and right, and no accountability system. Governments need accountability to be efficient, and accountability is maximized on the market.

The steel company is efficient. What is it obedient to? Only the wills of the consumer, but this, again, is the complete reverse of your claims: the producer is obedient to the consumer, not the other way around.

Clearly we think differently in terms of the question and efficient means the skillfulness in avoiding wasted time and effort

Clearly,having a more powerful central government or having your people be obedient causes a lot less wasted time and effort.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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10/29/2009 6:03:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Rezz and wjm- you still amaze me that you believe anarchism is a viable political philosophy. It is quite sad actually. The idea that stronger, richer, more powerful people looking to become the strongest, richest, and most powerful will not take absolute advantage over the weak is quite ridiculous. Without rules, humans are animals. Animals want to become the most fit according to survival of the fittest and will use any means to become the most fit - including enslavement and absolute domination over the weak. Anarchism is not viable.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/29/2009 6:06:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 6:03:01 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:57:52 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:54:56 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:51:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:48:33 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:47:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 10/29/2009 5:45:50 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
an effecient government needs its people to be obedient though doesn't it wjm?

Obedient, no. An individual must be free to leave and enter gov't as he chooses.

Why is that? Obedience is what makes a nation strong. Without obedience there is discourse. And discourse makes for a highly ineffective way or situation to govern over.

Enforced obedience makes a country inefficient. On the market, voluntary contract ("obedience") will be favored to the most effective system. Efficiency leads to obedience, not the other way around.

effeciency cannot exist without obedience. The market? I assume you mean trade market or "free market" or a capitalist market? Enforced obedience has worked in the past and was effeceint.

I suppose your definition of efficient means slavery, the abolition of rights left and right, and no accountability system. Governments need accountability to be efficient, and accountability is maximized on the market.

The steel company is efficient. What is it obedient to? Only the wills of the consumer, but this, again, is the complete reverse of your claims: the producer is obedient to the consumer, not the other way around.

Clearly we think differently in terms of the question and efficient means the skillfulness in avoiding wasted time and effort

This makes democracy inefficient, but does not call for authoritarianism or obedience, especially when government's only purpose is to prevent coercion.

Clearly,having a more powerful central government or having your people be obedient causes a lot less wasted time and effort.

Not necessarily. The US has an infinitely powerful central government and yet its decisions still take months.

Market decisions can be made as quick as a dictator's, and they have a greater accountability.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/29/2009 6:06:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/29/2009 6:03:43 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
In a government you give up rights to receive rights?

Depends on your definition of "rights".
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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10/29/2009 6:09:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Democracy is ineffecient which is why the country which I reside in has a democratic-republic. Which is an oxymoron but is in act nonetheless true.

Explain the whole market idea some more. I really can't see the link and is dictator just a word to throw around?

O yes, the whole gridlock thing going on right now over healthcare sure seems effecient.