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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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2/7/2013 8:21:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Now that I have your attention:
Why do people pretend we have a free market and capitalism? Why do people say we can't have pure capitalism and the reasons they give are that this would lead to crony capitalism even though by definition that's due to intrusion of the free market? In short, why do anti-capitalists pretend like current American society is an example of what happens when you have a libertarian paradise?
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OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/7/2013 8:22:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You bastard......
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malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/7/2013 8:34:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 8:22:37 PM, OberHerr wrote:
You bastard......

^^ what he said.
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malcolmxy
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2/7/2013 8:37:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also,

Enron, Mitsubishi, DeBeers, OPEC, WTO, IMF, Coca Cola/Pepsi, The World Financial Markets, PG&E, Dow.

I'm sure there's more, but this seems sufficient.
War is over, if you want it.

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Lordknukle
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2/7/2013 8:47:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 8:37:39 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
Also,

Enron, Mitsubishi, DeBeers, OPEC, WTO, IMF, Coca Cola/Pepsi, The World Financial Markets, PG&E, Dow.

I'm sure there's more, but this seems sufficient.

So... international organizations (WTO, IMG), international cartels between socialist countries (OPEC), the extremely general term of world financial markets, and various methods of measuring the state of the economy all equal capitalism is bad?

Logic 101 brah.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
The_Master_Riddler
Posts: 24
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2/7/2013 8:58:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
When I saw this topic, I was like "OMG this dude is going to get banned." But then when I found out that this isn't about what the title said I laughed, but then got mad.
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imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/7/2013 9:02:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well played, well played
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

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malcolmxy
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2/7/2013 9:03:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 8:47:39 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2013 8:37:39 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
Also,

Enron, Mitsubishi, DeBeers, OPEC, WTO, IMF, Coca Cola/Pepsi, The World Financial Markets, PG&E, Dow.

I'm sure there's more, but this seems sufficient.

So... international organizations (WTO, IMG), international cartels between socialist countries (OPEC), the extremely general term of world financial markets, and various methods of measuring the state of the economy all equal capitalism is bad?

Logic 101 brah.

All represent what happens in completely unregulated markets.

Do you have any examples of unregulated markets that end up in the Libertarian fantasy of the harmoniously competitive market?

The world diamond market was unregulated - DeBeers snatched it al up.

Oil? unregulated on the world market and OPEC formed.

Blue Fin Tuna? unregulated and Mitsubishi will have a total monopoly in less than 10 years (@$200 grand a pop for that fatty goodness)

California deregulated their power industry and look what Enron did to that market.

"oh, but those don't count...this and this and thish..."

Well, what the f*ck does count. because Libertarians have no example of this sh!t ever working, but they have plenty of excuses why it doesn't.

What perfect storm does someone have to lay down for the Libertarian fantasy to finally play itself out?
War is over, if you want it.

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Koopin
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2/7/2013 9:03:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The DDO porn community is pretty under the table. If airmax ever found the nude pics of Royal and Bench, we would all be banned.
kfc
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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2/7/2013 9:06:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 8:21:33 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Now that I have your attention:
Why do people pretend we have a free market and capitalism? Why do people say we can't have pure capitalism and the reasons they give are that this would lead to crony capitalism even though by definition that's due to intrusion of the free market? In short, why do anti-capitalists pretend like current American society is an example of what happens when you have a libertarian paradise?

Anti-capitalist people are usually concerned about inequality and power-disparities between classes, both of which are consequences of the mixed economy we have now. It's not an issue which is confined to a free market.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/7/2013 9:11:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 9:03:40 PM, Koopin wrote:
The DDO porn community is pretty under the table. If airmax ever found the nude pics of Royal and Bench, we would all be banned.

Let me know when you need more. Id say 'if' but we all know that we are well beyond that point
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/7/2013 9:13:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Confirmation bias is pretty much ubiquitous, as are straw men. This is why Richard Feynman once said of science that "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool." This applies to any rational discipline.

It's from a fantastic speech given by him on what he called 'cargo cult science', if anyone is interested: http://neurotheory.columbia.edu...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/7/2013 9:17:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 9:11:04 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/7/2013 9:03:40 PM, Koopin wrote:
The DDO porn community is pretty under the table. If airmax ever found the nude pics of Royal and Bench, we would all be banned.

Let me know when you need more. Id say 'if' but we all know that we are well beyond that point

The DDO Elite would like to take this opportunity to say that these pictures definitely don't exist, and that if they did, and if we existed, we would have nothing to do with it.
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malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/7/2013 9:22:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 9:06:37 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 2/7/2013 8:21:33 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Now that I have your attention:
Why do people pretend we have a free market and capitalism? Why do people say we can't have pure capitalism and the reasons they give are that this would lead to crony capitalism even though by definition that's due to intrusion of the free market? In short, why do anti-capitalists pretend like current American society is an example of what happens when you have a libertarian paradise?

Anti-capitalist people are usually concerned about inequality and power-disparities between classes, both of which are consequences of the mixed economy we have now. It's not an issue which is confined to a free market.

When? Where? I've given multiple examples of the consequences of a "free" market and the eventualities of each.

I can't get a Libertarian to show me on example where this actually works outside the fictional world of "widgets".

Here's a tip - the world doesn't run on widgets, and for the things the world wants, free markets stay free for about 5 seconds before someone swoops them up and turns them anything but free.

What, pray tell, needs to happen for these markets to "correct", because they are ridiculously inefficient, to say nothing of the inequality they also bring to bear.
War is over, if you want it.

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malcolmxy
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2/7/2013 9:33:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 9:30:15 PM, darkkermit wrote:
why do people assume that free-markets and capitalism have precise and concrete definitions?

'cause they do?


Free market" is a summary term for an array of exchanges that take place in society. Each exchange is undertaken as a voluntary agreement between two people or between groups of people represented by agents. These two individuals (or agents) exchange two economic goods, either tangible commodities or nontangible services. Thus, when I buy a newspaper from a newsdealer for fifty cents, the newsdealer and I exchange two commodities: I give up fifty cents, and the newsdealer gives up the newspaper. Or if I work for a corporation, I exchange my labor services, in a mutually agreed way, for a monetary salary; here the corporation is represented by a manager (an agent) with the authority to hire.

www.econlib.org/library/Enc/FreeMarket.html
War is over, if you want it.

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malcolmxy
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2/7/2013 9:34:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That's from the "Library of Economics and Liberty". I'm pretty sure that's one of your sites if you're a libertarian.
War is over, if you want it.

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malcolmxy
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2/7/2013 9:36:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
not one Libertarian can come up with one plausible real world example...pathetic, but par for the course.
War is over, if you want it.

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imabench
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2/7/2013 9:37:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I like how some people came in here and started having a serious conversation yet everybody knows they came in here wanting some free porn XD
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Franz_Reynard
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2/7/2013 9:40:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 8:21:33 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Now that I have your attention:
Why do people pretend we have a free market and capitalism? Why do people say we can't have pure capitalism and the reasons they give are that this would lead to crony capitalism even though by definition that's due to intrusion of the free market? In short, why do anti-capitalists pretend like current American society is an example of what happens when you have a libertarian paradise?

It isn't a pretention. There is nothing stopping this society from manifesting in any way that it collectively pleases.

In other words, this society is under no duress that isn't imposed on itself, inasmuch as humans are under no duress to be any way than the way humans already are. Humans are at the top of the food chain, and the U.S. is among the most powerful countries in the world, and allied with all those that could pose any threat. Accordingly, this is libertarianism, in a sense. At least, that's how it started, and it eventually evolved to how it is now.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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2/7/2013 10:14:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 9:36:20 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
not one Libertarian can come up with one plausible real world example...pathetic, but par for the course.

What do you need a real world example for?
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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2/7/2013 10:19:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 9:03:40 PM, Koopin wrote:
The DDO porn community is pretty under the table. If airmax ever found the nude pics of Royal and Bench, we would all be banned.

Snap chatting is so much more fun now that we've all seen each other's buttholes.
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malcolmxy
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2/8/2013 12:46:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 10:14:22 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 2/7/2013 9:36:20 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
not one Libertarian can come up with one plausible real world example...pathetic, but par for the course.

What do you need a real world example for?

I don't need anything, but every time I try to find this magic Libertarian fantasy world where the free market fixes everything and makes everyone happy and prosperous, I seem to come up short, only to have it explained to me (by someone with less education and training in economics than I have) how I don't understand what a "real" free market is, except there is no real free market, so no one can "teach" me how I've got it wrong.

At a certain point, I have to feel confident in my correctness on this issue and absolutely confident in my belief that Libertarians are selfish pricks who want everything for themselves, don't give two sh!ts about the consequences of what that entails, and spend their time continually trying to justify their self-centered, unpatriotic ideas, or at least trying to invent new circular arguments which will obfuscate the issue enough that they don't have to justify it further.

You're right...probably just me being too demanding.
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lannan13
Posts: 23,017
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2/8/2013 2:46:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
As the Britts would say, "you bar steward."
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

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